Whats your opinion of Sufi Islam?
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I have read some of Rumi's stuff. It is pretty good. I was always drawn to Sufism because of their use of (trance) dancing and also music which is usually abstained from in other Muslim groups. I am actually a Native American and I could relate to how they do their trance dancing as a means of connecting with God as Native Americans have similar ideas about dancing/music etc.
What I have learnt through sufism, is that neither hell nor paradise are forever. Only God is forever, everything else passes and destiny is to God. God is the beginning and the end of everything. We descend from God and to God return.
That is by the way what the Qur'an says repeatedly and clearly.Like with everything else, sufism there is good and bad, because it depends on the people who practise it and those who lead. Either they are highly inspired or are deluded or finally have egos, just as everybody else. If you get a good inspired person to lead, that is a great find, indeed.
Salaam
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I have spoken once to a Sufi leader here in Melbourne and I asked him about his understanding of hell as that of from the Quran and he said that we are all going to heaven and that hell is a place where your ego goes to burn up.
And what are the aayaats has he quoted from alQuraan? Will you please let me know?
Thanks,
mmKhan -
Peace )
I explored Sufism after falling off the Sunni wagon (good riddance). In particular, I love their way of showing dhikr through performing that whirling dance. Also, I've noticed that Sufis tend to be pretty laid back and very tolerant. The men and women tend to sit together while eating and discussing matters. I am going to say only nice things about them because I don't want to say anything that is inaccurate. There are topics such as, "sainthood", and following a set clergy (shaikh) that I do not understand. However, I don't have enough information in regard to these topics nor do I wish to pass judgement.
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Salam mmkhan
It is believed that Rumi created his poems in a state of ecstasy, accompanying his verses by a whirling dance. After Shams's death Rumi had started in his grief to circle a pole in his garden, and speak the poetry, which was written down by scribes. However, listening to music and ecstatic prayer rituals were already before Rumi features of Sufism. In the 12th century dervishes emerged throughout the Islamic world. Dance was a rhythmic expression of dhikr, an Arabic word meaning 'remembrance'. The repetition of religious formulas, the dhkir, was based on Gur'an "O believers, remember God often and give him glory at dawn and in the evening."
In the simple reed flute Rumi saw the metaphor for himself "Listen to the reed, how it tells a tale, complaining of separateness." The sama', the mystical dance, was for Rumi more than a technique for meditation, it was the cosmic truth, the manifestation of the secret power of God. The sun dances on the sky, the Eternal is the axis, and the entire universe is dancing and whirling around Him. "Whatever there is, is only He, / your foot steps there in dancing / The whirling, see, belongs to you, / and you belong to the whirling."
http//www.kirjasto.sci.fi/rumi.htm
The ecstasy of the dance is to me totally foreign to me, maybe you might have experiences with that?
I am fascinated by the idea that Allah can be achieved through the words energy . .. Although I would rather try this with the Quran, as with any other words as the word of Allah is the best zikr.
I read the love ist like a black lion poem that I find quite frightening
Love's like a black lion, famished and ferocious, who only drinks the blood of the hearts of lovers. Love seizes you tenderly and drags you towards the trap. ...No one can escape his chains by trickery or madness; no sage can wriggle out of his nets by wisdom. ?Rumi (Teachings of Rumi, p. 81)
here the complete poem (translated with google translate) in german der schwarze Fuerst der Liebe
The black prince of love
Poem by Dschela ed-Din Rumi
Love has robbed me of sleep The prince does love.
Prince does not care about love soul and reason.
A black lion, he is hungry and wild,
The only drinks the life-blood of lovers.
Prince love grabs you and drags you then gently
To the pit crashes into you, he looks at left.
Prince Love is a despot, a heartless judge,
The innocent tortured and abused.
Case you give him, in the hands, and you weep streams
Escape an gefrierst him and you turn to ice.
At every moment he smashes one thousand cups.
Sews one hundred dresses and then she tears to shreds.
Ten thousand eyes he making you cry,
And him that makes you laugh.
He slaughters one thousand down, and they are the same to him.
No one escapes his chains by craft or madness,
No one escapes its networks, as well as he was.rather describes the Shaytan or love???
Salam -
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Peace MMKhan )
Well, Kathak can be danced for a variety of reasons like any other dance. I am classically trained myself. Some Kathak dancers choreograph for temple dancing, while others choreograph for any other audience. Sufi Kathak contains a lot of that Dervish type whirling that is seen with Sufis. Also, Sufi kathak dancers tend to dress more modestly in my opinion.
I've seen a Kathak dance performed for the deity "Shiva" but never "Kali". These days, such dances do not interest me, but I still love watching Sufi Kathak.
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rather describes the Shaytan or love??? o
Sounds like the mind and it's role as the impostor-self in us when we live unconsciously (like most of us do most of the time). When we are unknowing slaves to our own mind, we bring misery and suffering to ourselves and the world. 'Ego' is a term sometimes used for this situation or mental entity. A mind unaware of it's own unconsciousness. It's an impostor since we think that this is us, the mind, the Ego, but it is not. It is not the real us. We are beyond the mind, if we could only see. Our mind should be our tool, not our master. But if we are unaware of and blind to this fact, we think we are the mind, and hence the Ego exists... a false self that brings suffering and separation from Allah. And what is love many times, if not just something that the mind has going for itself, until it gets tired of it?
So, shaytan, Ego or mind.... what's the difference?
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Peace MMKhan
Well, Kathak can be danced for a variety of reasons like any other dance. I am classically trained myself. Some Kathak dancers choreograph for temple dancing, while others choreograph for any other audience. Sufi Kathak contains a lot of that Dervish type whirling that is seen with Sufis. Also, Sufi kathak dancers tend to dress more modestly in my opinion.
I've seen a Kathak dance performed for the deity "Shiva" but never "Kali". These days, such dances do not interest me, but I still love watching Sufi Kathak.
Peace Released,
Thanks for the info.
Red part Thanks for correction, I was thinking they perform Kathak dance in front of Kali as I have seen in some movies and in TV shows long back.
Thanks again,
mmKhan -
which sufi?
there are many lineages of sufies...Anyway, Ab med Muammad ibn Muammad al-Ghazl (1058?1111 C.E.), called "proof of Islam", who wrote the capital work Ihya' Ulum al-Din or Ihya'u Ulumiddin (The Revival of Religious Sciences), said at the end that only the sufies know the truth! )
peace
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Salam
Salaam mirjamnur,
Me?
mmKhan
No of course not- sorry, had noticed the error )
Sounds like the mind and it's role as the impostor-self in us when we live unconsciously (like most of us do most of the time). When we are unknowing slaves to our own mind, we bring misery and suffering to ourselves and the world. 'Ego' is a term sometimes used for this situation or mental entity. A mind unaware of it's own unconsciousness. It's an impostor since we think that this is us, the mind, the Ego, but it is not. It is not the real us. We are beyond the mind, if we could only see. Our mind should be our tool, not our master. But if we are unaware of and blind to this fact, we think we are the mind, and hence the Ego exists... a false self that brings suffering and separation from Allah. And what is love many times, if not just something that the mind has going for itself, until it gets tired of it?
So, shaytan, Ego or mind.... what's the difference?
yes, really, what's the difference- maybe we sould make a new topic about the question is shaytan = ego=nafs?
Sura 114... Who whisperet in the hearts of mankind,....
Sura 50.16...And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than jugular vein
peace -
Sufism is a complicated subject. There is the sunni like sufis like Ghazali and Nawawi which is no different than other sunni school, and there is the more universalist sufis like Rumi and Gilani.
Sufism is not good for the Quranist persuasion. In fact I see it as a disaster for the Quranist persuasion. Precisley because they can conceal many aspects of Sunni Islam unlike the salafis who tell it like it is. I sometimes see sufism like a wolf in sheep clothing. Sufism never questioned Sunni jurisprudence they simply ignored its most legalistic and political aspects but never actually challenged it. For the Quranist persuasion, the more salafis dominate the better. They expose what sufis try to hide.
People don't change because they want to, they change because they have to. Since we are promoting an ALTERNATIVE interpretation of Islam, the worst the situation gets for Muslims the better it is for us. The salafis are our biggest gift.
Some may say its mean to say that. But that is the reality. The more the terror the better. At leats for us it is.
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Peace
Indeed it does! She is a Sufi Kathak dancer.Well, as for me, i was kind of attracted to the whirling of their dances.
Your photo reminds me of Persian Dances, which i used to adore...
Shahrokh Moshkin Ghalam - Sohrab and Gordafarid
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXumObPQ90w&feature=related -
Peace Youssef, )
Very nice! I watched the entire thing. I've never seen this kind of dance before. I've seen lots of different Persian dances, but never this kind. I love the footwork and chemistry between the two.
This is the kind of kathak that I like to observe ( and attempt though I am too clumsy)
Just the whirling http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cJpDAH4jJM
Now the technical piece that accompanies it (Stuff I have learned from young) http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfZhBN0zH-o&feature=channel&list=UL
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Peace )
Yeah, i used to like dancing, especially Persian Dancing. Shahrokh Moshkin was kind of inspirational to me, and also the sufi whirling dancing. I kind of like how they use whirling/dancing as a form of connection with God .
"Indian whirling dances" were also inspiring, ... I kind of delved into far eastern music/dances, from Tajik, hindi, afghan music etc..
I liked how many used their bodies/arms/hands to dance, which was of course more classy and tolerable than the less classy belly dancing that middle easterners are used too. -
The sufis have deeper insights into Quran than any quranist at present. It would do us a world of good to read their works and use them as stimuli to higher understanding.