The four witnesses for adultery
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Peace 357,
Thanks for your input . However, I must disagree with you on this point as I see the number 4 very plainly. Do you have a translation perhaps with such changes that I could take a look at? I am just curious as to how it would appear more comprehensible.
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
Should be something like;
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce wighty/reasonable evidance, you shall give them similer/equivalent compensation for their accusations, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
(without traditional grammer).
peace
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Peace 357 )
Interesting theory. Okay, so you're not looking at 4 as a number here. So, then for the verse regarding polygyny or polygamy, how do you define 4 or four there? Can you give me another example where you use a broader definition in stead of the numerical value?
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Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
Should be something like;
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce wighty/reasonable evidance, you shall give them similer/equivalent compensation for their accusations, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
(without traditional grammer).
peace
Peace 357,
bravo
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Salaam,
Why bravo ?
Salaam,
Bender244]
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce wighty/reasonable evidance, you shall give them similer/equivalent compensation for their accusations, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.(without traditional grammer).
Bender,
Because it makes good sense. Not saying that I take that translation over what has been given over the Qur'an, but I do like the way 357 put it there.
No one should just be able to walk up to a judge/police/imam and say "So and so has done this crime and I have 4 witnesses to prove it." Every last one of them should have "weighty and reasonable evidence" as to what they are claiming to.
I know people that can get 4 people to say "Yup, I saw it and I swear to God it is the truth" simply because they are afraid of losing favor with them. Disgusting.
Peace,
Amina
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244]
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce wighty/reasonable evidance, you shall give them similer/equivalent compensation for their accusations, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.(without traditional grammer).
Bender,
Because it makes good sense. Not saying that I take that translation over what has been given over the Qur'an, but I do like the way 357 put it there.
No one should just be able to walk up to a judge/police/imam and say "So and so has done this crime and I have 4 witnesses to prove it." Every last one of them should have "weighty and reasonable evidence" as to what they are claiming to.
I know people that can get 4 people to say "Yup, I saw it and I swear to God it is the truth" simply because they are afraid of losing favor with them. Disgusting.
Peace,
Amina
Salaam Amina,
I understood that you liked his translation and that it makes good sense to you but he gave a translation without any reference to other occurences in The Quran were the same word or it's derivative is used. In this way we can make whatever we desire out of the verses to fit our purposes.
I am sure you will not agree with this translation even if it makes good sense to me
244 Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to let Bender judge, you shall give them similer/equivalent compensation for their accusations, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.please take a look at this verse, maybe 357 can translate this verse
587 Do you not realize that God knows everything in the heavens and everything on the earth? No thalathatin people can meet secretly without Him being their rabi3uhum , nor khamsatin without Him being the sadisuhum , nor less than that, nor more, without Him being there with them wherever they may be. Then, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of everything they had done. God is fully aware of all things.or this one
1822 they will say "thalathatun,rabiAAuhum is their dog." And they say "khamsatun,sadisuhum is their dog," guessing at what they do not know. And they say "sab3atun, wathaminuhum s their dog." Say "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few." So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.
Salaam,
Bender -
I really do not understand this insistence on the fact that witnesses can lie. Of course they can lie. But the courts, any court should be up to that. That is why four witnesses are required and not just two. Two witnesses should give enough food to a court to find out what they hide, four should be more than enough if the court fulfills its duty. If the court does not, then, most obviously it is not a question of the Qur'an not giving sufficient guarantees, but of the rotten court. And if in a country the courts are rotten, there is NO LAW, that is going to arrange that. I you ask for four thousand evidences, the same ones who bring four false witnesses, can bring forth four thoused cooked evidences. That is obvious.
As to require the witnesses to bring evidence, the court can do that itself. It can require evidence from wherever it wants to, it is one of its duties. If it brings evidence that one of the witnesses is liying. then it should throw him out and punish him. Or what do you think they do in criminal courts. And as per equivalent standars zina is a crime and the court that deals with it is acting as a criminal court. You do scrutinize testimony in a matter of assault or homicide or robbery, or not?
From where is it assumed that of all the cases of law breaking, only if the matter is zina witnesses are taken for granted and they are, BY LAW, truthful beyond doubt? Where does the Qur'an suggest such a thing. The mere fact that it provides for a penalty for false testimony is proof that the witnesses should be questionned and what they testify ascertained. Otherwise how would you find out that they give false testimony?
You speak as if the courts were mere transmission belts. It is not so. The witnesses may be mere transmission belts of what the observed, if they are fair, or of what they are ordered to say if they are perjurors, but the court is not. And the court must satisfy itself that the witnesses are not liying, that is what they are for To tell the truth, and the court must look to it, that what they say is the truth. Or is it being suggested that in order to act as a judge or juror a person must first become an imbecile?
Again, if the courts are rotten, there is nothing that the law can do. The people should straighten that up. It is their choice, they put up with rotten courts or they find the way to change that. There is nothing the Qur'an or any law can do about it, just as there is nothing the Qur'an can do about a father or a mother who doesn't love his or her children, or a husband who beats up the wife or a wife who undermines the husbad... People do wrong things, no matter what the Qur'an says and there is NO system under the sun that can function with rotten people. If we want gurantees, we should do something to bring them about. They are not going to come to us just because the Qur'an or whatever says great things, I am afraid.
Salaam
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Salaam Amina,
I understood that you liked his translation and that it makes good sense to you but he gave a translation without any reference to other occurences in The Quran were the same word or it's derivative is used. In this way we can make whatever we desire out of the verses to fit our purposes.
I am sure you will not agree with this translation even if it makes good sense to me
244 Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to let Bender judge, you shall give them similer/equivalent compensation for their accusations, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.please take a look at this verse, maybe 357 can translate this verse
587 Do you not realize that God knows everything in the heavens and everything on the earth? No thalathatin people can meet secretly without Him being their rabi3uhum , nor khamsatin without Him being the sadisuhum , nor less than that, nor more, without Him being there with them wherever they may be. Then, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of everything they had done. God is fully aware of all things.or this one
1822 they will say "thalathatun,rabiAAuhum is their dog." And they say "khamsatun,sadisuhum is their dog," guessing at what they do not know. And they say "sab3atun, wathaminuhum s their dog." Say "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few." So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.
Salaam,
BenderPlease note , i am not using Grammer or anything -
587
Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three, but He makes the fourth among them, - Nor between five but He makes the sixth,- nor between fewer nor more, but He is in their midst, wheresoever they be In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.i think it should be something like
587
Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a an evil inclination projected between them, but He makes his weight among them, - Nor in their agreeing but He makes it dark/ashy, and not but a burden from that and not can they be more but he with them wherever they are In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.peace
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Please note , i am not using Grammer or anything -
587
Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three, but He makes the fourth among them, - Nor between five but He makes the sixth,- nor between fewer nor more, but He is in their midst, wheresoever they be In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.i think it should be something like
587
Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a an evil inclination projected between them, but He makes his weight among them, - Nor in their agreeing but He makes it dark/ashy, and not but a burden from that and not can they be more but he with them wherever they are In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.peace
Salaam 357,
I appreciate it that you don't use grammar or anything but on basis of what did you come to these definitions?
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Huruf
I do not mean to say that what is prescribed is not sufficient. It is indeed sufficient given that one or more witnesses do not provide a plausible testimony. As I've said before, I think that the four witness requirement allows for the courts to very quickly determine whether or not they actually need to proceed further. The four witness requirement cuts down on waiting time, court fees and allows for bogus cases to be quickly thrown out. It is my opinion, we must always assume the worst possible scenario when dealing with legal matters, especially, when the punishment is so severe both physically and mentally.
Corruption plagues the earth and this has always been the case. Even in most Western democracies, we see corruption in almost every sector. Life just doesn't come with many guarantees, unfortunately. This is why we have to build legal systems that will protect our citizens in the long run (especially the most vulnerable). We would not be negating God's law or even neglecting it. We would simply be considering the "What ifs" and the gray areas of each situation.
The testimony of an individual can never be infallible. Even when supported with the testimony of others to make the case stronger, still we cannot determine that what we're hearing is indeed accurate. However, we can use the testimonies to determine whether or not a lie is being told. Usually, those who lie without having planned prior, will easily contradict themselves. However, those who plan meticulously, it is very difficult to catch them. This is why some type of proof is needed. Otherwise, we risk condemning an innocent person. I think this would be a greater sin. Also, we ourselves could easily become victims to such a system.
In addition to God's laws, we need to create bylaws that will help lawyers navigate the system and provide a defense that is strong. I do not agree when you say that we cannot do anything if a court is rotten. The court cannot be rotten if checks and balances are put into place. The court cannot be rotten if we the public, uphold our expectations of the court and monitor the judiciary system. The court cannot be rotten if we have laws that insist that a human being cannot be proven guilty until proven. The proof does not lie in the words of humans. Their words are pure hearsay. The proof must be brought into the court. The party that has been accused is innocent until they are proven guilty by actual proof. The words of humans, who are infallible and capable of the most heinous sin, are not acceptable. Their eyewitness testimony only allows us to catch their lies. It does not contain their proof. We must take it a step further and demand this proof/evidence of the crime. This is to ensure reasonable doubt.
These requirements do not equate to defying God or undermining His laws, rather it means that we have used our intellect and reasoning to create a fair and just system to the best of our human abilities. Still, we will fall short because we were created weak and do not possess the wisdom of the Almighty. However, we must try and never back down. This is about attempting to achieve justice for all. As cheesy as that sounds, I do mean it.
Proof is also needed in the case of robbery, homicide, rape, and etc. Tomorrow, four people cannot go to the courts and accuse me of robbing a bank. If their testimonies sound ludicrous and unbelievable, the police officers who took their testimony will either book them and/or send them on their way. We'll then hear about it on the six o'clock news. However, if the testimonies sound credible, then further steps will be taken. Perhaps, an interrogation. Seemingly credible testimonies will not result in me being dragged off to prison for 20 years. There is a lengthy process to all of this, and rightly so. Either they'll find the money with me or they find some other kind of proof to place me at the crime scene and then proceed from there. These days, rape and homicide can both be proven with DNA evidence (strongest determining factor). Of course, DNA evidence is only one type of proof. Other types of proof can be found as well. Testimonies are merely supplementary information that would need to coincide with the beyond, reasonable doubt proof.
Yes, the Quran gives a punishment for giving a false testimony. Imagine that you and I are interrogating four witnesses. I take two, and you take the other two into separate enclosed rooms. We ask the same questions to all four witnesses. Everything is of course recorded and video taped. You and I proceed to come out and discuss the answers we received. There are too many discrepancies in the testimonies. Their stories really aren't matching up. We confront them on these matters, and now we have four witnesses who are stuttering and then trying to change their stories around, while fumbling for new ideas or possibilities. Or, they just give up and admit their guilt. We then have to get them tried in court, as we have proof (tape recordings and video tape) that they attempted to accuse an innocent party of adultery/fornication. If the court finds them guilty, then what is their punishment? 80 lashes. That's God's law in action.
Nobody needs to be an imbecile. We just need to be human and that's usually enough.
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Peace Amina, ) I agree with you in this matter.
Peace 357 ) I may not agree with you either, but I also find what you are saying to make sense. However, I still understand the numerical value to be correct in reference to other verses. I see great wisdom in God having required a specific number.
Peace Bender ). Just wanted to say that.
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A dictionery - lanes.
Salaam,
I thought you said you don't use "grammar or anything" hmm
Anyway, whatever dictionary you are using it's not compatible with how The Quran uses it.
this was your translation for 587
Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a an evil inclination projected between them, but He makes his weight among them, - Nor in their agreeing but He makes it dark/ashy, and not but a burden from that and not can they be more but he with them wherever they are In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.I guess you know for yourself that this translation is playing with the verses of Allah &
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Amina, ) I agree with you in this matter.
Peace 357 ) I may not agree with you either, but I also find what you are saying to make sense. However, I still understand the numerical value to be correct in reference to other verses. I see great wisdom in God having required a specific number.
Peace Bender ). Just wanted to say that.
Salaam Released )
I don't understand.
You agree with Amina but you don't agree with 357 I thought that they agreed with eachother hmmSalaam,
Benderps did you see my rank, I am now a "Truth Seeker" )
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Salaam,
I thought you said you don't use "grammar or anything" hmm
Anyway, whatever dictionary you are using it's not compatible with how The Quran uses it.
this was your translation for 587
Seest thou not that Allah doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a an evil inclination projected between them, but He makes his weight among them, - Nor in their agreeing but He makes it dark/ashy, and not but a burden from that and not can they be more but he with them wherever they are In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For Allah has full knowledge of all things.I guess you know for yourself that this translation is playing with the verses of Allah &
Salaam,
BenderWhere on the face of the earth, is there a law saying that a woman needs four people to have seen her being done before she can make a formal complaint ? No where but in a book by God Allmighty!!!!!!!!!!
brickwall
When we corrupt Gods holy words there needs to be people who would stand up for what is right , don't you think? and not for what is wrong.
with respects ;
The four witness theory fabricated to bring about the four holy months - which are in Hinduism
like many other things- like the kaaba itself.Ashadh Chaturdashi, The sacred commencement of Chaturmas takes place on the 14th day of the fortnight of the waxing moon of Ashad. The Jain monks and nuns remain where they happen to be for four months until the 14th day of Kartik Shukla. During these four months the monks give daily discourses, undertake religious ceremonies,
The four-month period of Chaturmas -- beginning from the fourth month (Ashadh) to the seventh month (Ashwin) -- is regarded sacred by devotees who believe that Lord Vishnu went into deep slumber during the time.There is no magic in any number , but in righeousness.
But once the word is used in one place for four they need to keep on using it to mean four everywhere else and so the flaw/ the crack appears in the act of righteousness.
But it is sad people don't/ can't see the injustice in the concuction, its a shame.
yes
peace
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Where on the face of the earth, is there a law saying that a woman needs four people to have seen her being done before she can make a formal complaint ? No where but in a book by God Allmighty!!!!!!!!!!
brickwall
Salaam,
What you claim here is not what the verse says.
btw I didn't even noticed that you also changed the second half of the verse.
When we corrupt Gods holy words there needs to be people who would stand up for what is right , don't you think? and not for what is wrong.
I agree, but you came up with a translation without backing it up with other verses were the same words are used.
In this way everyone can make up what he/she desires.
if you can proof your understanding with verses from The Quran then I am with you. But if it's just a thought based on nothing else besides what you wish it to be, then we will agree to disagree.with respects ;
The four witness theory fabricated to bring about the four holy months - which are in Hinduism
like many other things- like the kaaba itself.I have very limited knowledge on the so called 4 holy months and zero knowledge on Hinduism so I can't discuss this.
There is no magic in any number , but in righeousness.
handshake
But once the word is used in one place for four they need to keep on using it to mean four everywhere else and so the flaw/ the crack appears in the act of righteousness.
I strongly disagree here.
But it is sad people don't/ can't see the injustice in the concuction, its a shame.
yes
peace
I don't see any injustice in how I understand the verse.
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Bender )
I agree with her in that although we do find 357's methodology to be incorrect, we find that there is wisdom in the actual interpretation that he has derived. In that, there should be weighty or reasonable evidence presented if in fact all four witnesses who present testimonies appear to provide information that is consistent and without contradiction. However, we understand that human testimony (no matter how many people gang up to make identical claims) is pure hearsay unless the the eyewitness(es) bring forth their proof. If what they say is absolutely true without a doubt, let them bring forth their proof before we condemn a soul to a punishment of any sort. I believe that this is in the spirit of God's words a fair, thorough, and just legal system.
Congratulations on your change of rank, TruthSeeker. bravo I imagine that you will live up to your name, God willing.
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Salaam,
I have very limited knowledge on the so called 4 holy months and zero knowledge on Hinduism so I can't discuss this.
Salaam,
Bender92
Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.936
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.four holy (or forbidden) months?
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Peace )
I'm just so happy to be having this discussion. Imagine if I brought this up in a sectarian forum..I can just imagine how many of them would have condemned me to hell by now. Though we may never agree with one another...I'm just loving this freedom to share my viewpoint. I'm sure many of you feel the same sun
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Peace )
I apologize if this topic has already been discussed. You can close this thread and redirect to a thread with a similar topic in this case.
Okay, so you know how it is required to have four witnesses in order to prove adultery?
I was just wondering something about that in that, do the four witnesses need to bring forth any concrete proof? Or, can adultery be proven merely through eyewitness testimony? I would think that an eyewitness testimony void of any proof (video, pictures, etc) could easily be a lie orchestrated by a group of people against two individuals they collectively strongly dislike?
In my head I'm thinking, "who's going to commit adultery in front of four other people?" So, it has to be some weird situation on which a case could be built upon. ???
Please share your thoughts.
Salam
In any way you interpret zina does not matter in this case, the allegation is a big one and the punishment should not be administred without clear evidence. What many people seem to overlook is that what is described in the Quran is LAW. You need to have met certain criteria to qualify as a case ruled by the Quran and Allah. It is very serious business.......If a man finds his wife in bed with another man but cannot produce any witnesses or the wife swears by Allah it is a false acqusation doesnt mean the adultery never happened, it still happened.....The husband can take whatever action he wants (forgive/forget/divorce etc).........It is up to him how he deals with a cheating wife.......However when the husband brands his wife as an adultress to the rest of society he must produce evidence.
Simple retorics, if I steal a candybar and caught by the shopowner he can ban me for life from his shop. If he decides to call the police and have me arrested he must produce evidence for me to be convicted.
Jealousy, greed, hate etc can blind a person to the point where you risk all. You can stand in front of a court and lie without a problem, as long as it serves your purpose. You are willing to take the punishment if caught, both here on earth and on judgement day.
For two people to have the same jealousy, greed, hate etc towards another person is feasible, maybe even three, but it is highly unlikely that four independent people are all blind from jealousy or hate to the point they are willing to "risk" being punished by Allah on judgement day.
In other words, what is and what is not witnessed is of course important but not the main focus. What is important is that four people are so sure about the zina that they have no fear of punishment because they know they are not false witnesses. Because as we all know, Allah will punish liars severely.
Would anyone here be willing to swear by Allah you are a witness to zina because you watched a video or looked at a photo? Because if a person produces that kind of evidence to you and you accept it, then by default you become a witness yourself.......I know I would not risk my own salvation (in lack of a better term) based on evidence that I have not witnessed in person.
As the accuser you need to trust your witnesses, because if they lie you are the one that will receive the punishment of eighty lashes, not them......If I wanted to accuse someone I would be very careful as to the witness I choose to back me up. I would make sure they do not have any reason to see the adulterer/adultress punished, for example an ex-boyfriend/girlfriend. Because like I said, if they lie and are caught I am the one being whipped.
So zina does not become zina when one accuser and four witnesses step forward, it is still zina, it still happened. But you as a victim of the crime do not have the right to publicly speak about it. You are not allowed to tell people he or she has cheated on their spouse.........If you do this you must produce witnesses, and these witnesses must be utterly rock solid that they are willing to stand up and swear by Allah they are telling the truth, only then does the zina become punishable by the Quran. Then it is up to the court to believe or not believe the witnesses.
Of course this only works in an objective court, sadly this is not the case in today's world.....