Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)

Wakas

Methodology in Understanding Quran
Discussion between Wakas and Farouk.

This discussion is aimed at determining the best methods in understanding the Quran. This subject originally stemmed from a critique I wrote about a blog post by Farouk, which can be read here .

The format will primarily consist of a Q&A, in which each of us asks and answers a question at a time. Members are requested not to post on this thread, but if they wish to discuss something in this thread, can create a parallel thread.

My questions will primarily consist of getting answers to my original critique, so I will begin

You said ? ?We are to complete the challenge and fertilisation for Allah, which is to establish and grow His system in the world. Whoever is prevented should...?

Prevented from establishing and growing His system in the world. If so that would mean pretty much everyone in the world would be classed as ?prevented?, because at best it would be a tiny tiny minority who could even claim to have ESTABLISHED and GROWN His system in the world.
Further, what establishing and growing means is anyone?s guess. It seems it would be subjective, and difficult to determine when this had been fulfilled, if ever.

You have already agreed that it would only be a minority who could even be said to achieve this. My question is can you cite anyone, past or present (excluding prophets/messengers) that has "established and grown His system in the world"? And if you can, please give us your criteria on how you determined this.

Thanks.

abdalquran

No I can't.

Wakas

I wrote

Abbreviations
NQCR = no Quran cross-reference
NQE = no Quranic evidence
NCADR = no classical Arabic dictionary reference

You translate ?al hadiy? as ?progressions? with NQCR, NQE, NCADR.
Having an alternative translation for a word is fine but at least one would expect an explanation or some presentation of evidence for an unheard of word choice. Secondly, the word is actually ?al hadiy? (definite noun, singular) so it should have been translated as ?the progression?. The use of ?al? commonly signifies that this noun and what it refers to is well known to the addressed audience. Of course, if you were to translate it in this way, it would be more awkward for you to explain.

Question Can you confirm "al hadiy" is indeed singular and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?

Thanks.

abdalquran

Firstly, my work is not a translation. My work is notemaking. Therefore expecting literal translations is inappropriate.

Yes, al-hadiy is in singular.

You asked for

evidence from the Quran.
What exactly do you mean by this? The Quran is meaningless in English and does not have the word 'progressions'.
classical Arabic dictionaries.
No, I can't.

Counter question why is this question relevant?

Wakas

By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

Counter question why is this question relevant?

As we agreed upon, one question at a time, and you opted to have your own thread for questions to me, thus if you wish to ask me the above, please do so in the correct thread.

I wrote

Translates ?raas? as ?thought? with NQCR, NQE, NCADR.
Again, choosing an unusual word choice is fine if it can be backed up with some sort of reasoning/evidence, but you present none. Furthermore, it is plural, not singular.

Question Can you confirm "raas" is indeed plural and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?

Thanks.

abdalquran

Sorry, I haven't finished with your second question yet.

You asked me if the Q evinces the 'translation' of progressions. Kindly show me how you would go about doing so. Perhaps a demonstration would be good.

Wakas

You asked me if the Q evinces the 'translation' of progressions. Kindly show me how you would go about doing so. Perhaps a demonstration would be good.

Your request seems to imply you have little idea as to how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean. This is unusual for a person who blogs on Quran. Perhaps you should highlight this on your blog.

As I said

By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

If you have no idea how to look-up word occurrences in Quran and discuss how said word is used, then that is fine, simply state so, and move onto the next question.

If you claim you do not understand what I mean, that is also fine, simply state so and move onto the next question.

abdalquran

Your request seems to imply you have little idea as to how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean. This is unusual for a person who blogs on Quran. Perhaps you should highlight this on your blog.

Yes, perhaps so. Perhaps I do know very little and therefore beg your indulgence. Whatever the case, the duty of clarification is on you since YOU levelled the question.

Kindly show me and demonstrate how the Quran would evince a particular translation. You asked for the evidence so presumably you must know what it looks like.

If you have no idea how to look-up word occurrences in Quran and discuss how said word is used, then that is fine, simply state so, and move onto the next question.

If you claim you do not understand what I mean, that is also fine, simply state so and move onto the next question

I am asking how YOU evidence any particular translation of a word. If you can write critiques about other people's work, then one would assume you know how to perform it yourself.

You asked me for 'quranic evidence'. Kindly show me WHAT is Quranic evidence through a demonstration. You used the phrase, Wakas. Now substantiate it you can.

Wakas

You seem to claim I did not clarify what I meant, but I did, re-quote below

By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

You seem to claim you have no idea what I mean by the above and regardless, you have no clue of your own thinking how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean.
If your view is it is impossible to determine what a word means based on Quran, simply state so for all to see.

The above would be an interesting finding, but in any case, I offered a solution for such a situation, re-quote below

If you have no idea how to look-up word occurrences in Quran and discuss how said word is used, then that is fine, simply state so, and move onto the next question.

If you claim you do not understand what I mean, that is also fine, simply state so and move onto the next question

Please state so, and move onto the next question.

If you wish to ask me for a demonstration of what I mean by "Quranic evidence", feel free to ask on the other thread. I consider my clarification said here self-explanatory.

abdalquran

By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

Sorry, but I will need a DEMONSTRATION of this so I can see what you mean. Can you provide a demonstration or not? It seems very suspicious that you use the phrase 'quranic evidence' yet you can't seem to provide it yourself.

You seem to claim you have no idea what I mean by the above and regardless, you have no clue of your own thinking how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean.
If your view is it is impossible to determine what a word means based on Quran, simply state so for all to see.

I understand the words fine and I haven't stated that it's impossible. However, I want to see how any evidence for meaning is 'quranic'. Lets talk about your view of 2/196. Would you say that YOUR translation there is QURANIC?

If you wish to ask me for a demonstration of what I mean by "Quranic evidence", feel free to ask on the other thread. I consider my clarification said here self-explanatory

What you consider has no bearing at all in this instance. You levelled a criticism and as such, created positive statements with that criticism. You wish for 'quranic evidence'? Show me by demonstration what that is so I can reproduce it for you if I can. Does your interpretation of 2/196 show 'quranic evidence' of meaning? If it does, I will go there so we can see how 'quranic' it really is.

Why would I go to another thread for this? This is YOUR critique. You are responsible for fully furnishing the examples required for your critique to be answered. IF you know what 'quranic evidence' look like, show us please

Wakas

I understand the words fine and I haven't stated that it's impossible.

So you understand fine on the one hand, yet require a demonstration on the other hand. Contradiction.
It seems to me you wish to ask another question under the guise of not understanding something thus requiring a demo, even though you clearly admitted you understand fine.

If you haven't stated that it is impossible, thus, if you think it is possible, then please provide your evidence from Quran, in whatever manner you can fathom for providing such evidence.

If you are unwilling to move on without a demonstration of something you apparently understand fine, then simply state so. To keep the Q&A going I will provide one.

abdalquran

So you understand fine on the one hand, yet require a demonstration on the other hand. Contradiction.

To an Aristotelian logician, yes. However, the world has moved on since the days of Ancient Greece. There are now different levels of understanding. CONCEPTUALLY, I understand what YOU mean by 'quranic evidence'. However, I would like to see it demonstrated.

I asked you before does your work on 2/196 constitute Quranically evinced meanings? Yes or no. If it does, I would like to study it before I proffer my views.

It seems to me you wish to ask another question under the guise of not understanding something thus requiring a demo, even though you clearly admitted you understand fine.

It can seem to you whatever you like, I asked you to show me what 'quranic evidence' looks like. The onus is on you to show me how it works....if you can.

If you haven't stated that it is impossible, thus, if you think it is possible, then please provide your evidence from Quran, in whatever manner you can fathom for providing such evidence.

If you are unwilling to move on without a demonstration of something you apparently understand fine, then simply state so. To keep the Q&A going I will provide one.

I need to see what 'quranic evidence' looks like before I determine if my work is quranically evinced or not. If you can show me what that looks like, I will proceed. I am simply asking for demonstration of what YOU asked for. Show me an example of that so I can see how 'quranic' it is. Alternatively, tell me if your 2/196 thing is 'quranically evinced' or not so I can see for myself )

abdalquran

IF you believe your write up on 2/196 is 'quranically evinced', I'd like to ask about point one

"And complete the hajj and the 3umra for God" - whatever hajj and 3umra are, they should be completed.
Later the verse states "...then a sawm/abstinence/fast three days during the hajj..." - clearly implying the hajj is a delimited/finite timed undertaking/event. Also see 2228 "appointed days" and 93 "day of the greatest/peak hajj".

You claimed here that 'hajj is a delimited/finite timed undertaking/event'. Would you consider this 'quranically evinced' by quoting 22/28 and 9/3 ?

Wakas

Since you seem to require a demo of what I mean, here is an example

Let's say you think word X means "banana" and others think it means "orange" or "fruit" or something else, we can look to the occurrences of word X within the text (e.g. Quran) to determine what that text means by word X, or at the very least, gather information about word X to help us determine which meaning suits.

Occurrence 1
As the table fell over the food on it landed on the ground, and the X rolled along the floor.

Occurrence 2
I normally cut X in half then squeeze the juice to drink.

Occurrence 3
The X hanging from the trees looked like radiant suns.

From the above we can determine some characteristics of X, e.g. it can roll, it can be cut in half and squeezed for juice, it can be likened to a radiant sun. We simply apply these to the word options, and see what fits best.

So, quite simply, from the occurrences of the word "hadiy" can you bring forth any evidence that backs your meaning of "the progression"? If you can, please provide it, if you cant, then simply state so, and move onto the next question.

My questions are not difficult, but answering them often is.

Wakas

I forgot to add, if you wish to ask me questions, you have your own thread, as we both agreed. Please do not change the agreed upon format midway.

abdalquran

You did not provide a QURANIC demonstration (neither 'validated' by nor even 'pertaining' to the Quran) but no matter, lets move on.

'hadiy' is related to the huda which I interpret as moving from location to location. The nujum are for us to be in 'yahtadoon' mode. (16/16). Therefore, I interpret this to be 'progressions' in our journey of establishing AMAH.

Wakas

'hadiy' is related to the huda which I interpret as moving from location to location. The nujum are for us to be in 'yahtadoon' mode. (16/16). Therefore, I interpret this to be 'progressions' in our journey of establishing AMAH.

Thanks for actually bringing forth evidence. I consider it very poor and a tenuous link, but at least its something. Readers can of course make up their own minds.
As a side note, according to corpus.quran.com "yahtadoon" is verb form 8 reflexive meaning "guide themselves".

Now please move onto the next question

Question Can you confirm "raas" is indeed plural and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?

abdalquran

Thanks for actually bringing forth evidence. I consider it very poor and a tenuous link, but at least its something.

Oh thanks so much! This helps me measure my interpretation a lot.

Readers can of course make up their own minds.

Oh are they allowed? I'd have thought they would be attacked if they agreed for following falsehood.

As a side note, according to corpus.quran.com "yahtadoon" is verb form 8 reflexive meaning "guide themselves".

Maybe for those who uncritically accept this form stuff (and STILL claim the Quran is their furqan, lol) . I don't. Where's your Quranic proof for this by the way.

Now please move onto the next question
Question Can you confirm "raas" is indeed plural and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?

What was my word choice for this? It seems you cannot understand I DID NOT MAKE A TRANSLATION. I am blogging my UNDERSTANDING of this aya. Do you understand the difference?

A translation would lock each Quranic word to a translated word for phrase. I did NOT do that. I am blogging my understanding of that verse. So as such, there is no word CHOICE.

Wakas

What was my word choice for this?

You may have forgotten since it seems a while ago since I asked.
Perhaps readers should compare your responses to my questions with mine to yours. I answer every question in the very next reply on your thread. You on the other hand evade, stall and obfuscate........... and then reply.... maybe.

Let's try this again...

I am blogging my UNDERSTANDING of this aya.

Fine. You have an understanding of X, and opted to represent that understanding by choosing words, one of which was "thought" for "raas".

My question is very simple

Can you confirm "raas" is indeed plural and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?

If you have no evidence for this understanding (as represented by your words), simply state so for all to see.

Or will you opt to evade yet again?

abdalquran

You may have forgotten since it seems a while ago since I asked.
Perhaps readers should compare your responses to my questions with mine to yours. I answer every question in the very next reply on your thread. You on the other hand evade, stall and obfuscate........... and then reply.... maybe
.

Look , if you're not able to understand my technique, your questions are bound to be off the mark. You think in a one a dimensional cut and paste fashion then pretend as if your view is 'quranic' (not pertaining to, validated by) which is absolute nonsense. You don't examine context, themes, shifts in language or even pronoun moods. So yeah, when YOU have a problem with my approach, I take it as a good sign. My reading isn't meant for people who claim to reject hadith yet swallow what lexicographers tell them.

Oh you answer every question eh? Where is your PROOF for that form 8 comment? Quranic proof please none of that orange fruit nonsense.

Fine. You have an understanding of X, and opted to represent that understanding by choosing words, one of which was "thought" for "raas".

Good, further proof of your inability to understand. The word 'raas' means 'head'. However, the head is used metaphorically as well (like raas am waal) and so I chose to lift the metaphorical process projected by the word and apply it to my interpretation of the verse. It's not a WORD CHOICE. It's like in English we say 'lose one's head'.

If you have no evidence for this understanding (as represented by your words), simply state so for all to see.

Or will you opt to evade yet again?

lol...I'll just call it 'quranic' cause it PERTAINS to the Quran rotfl