Is it okay for a rape culprit to get away unless there were 4 witnesses?
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In the case you cited, lacking 4 witnesses, there is the method of oaths; both parties swear they are speaking the truth. If the accused partner also presents their oath then the marriage is dissolved but nobody is punished. If they do not swear then they are punished accordingly.
If we're talking about rape then that would be treated as aggression not adultery. Adultery would be more of a civil dispute between consensual parties whereas rape is a crime of agression.
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This topic was in consequance of another one , where the number four was erradicated with a new translation of a sort, i should not have used the word rape, i think.
And in your case if you can't prove zina unless you have 4 witnesses, you mean to say such a person can carry on committing such an act remember if you blame anyone for the act without your 4 witnesses you should be lashed and the other consequances fall on you, Yes?!
hmm
So, which act re you referring to zina or rape, because they are completely different things. i.e. what about accusing a murdered person of taking advantage of the gun property of the person who murdered him or her?
Salaam
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In the case you cited, lacking 4 witnesses, there is the method of oaths; both parties swear they are speaking the truth. If the accused partner also presents their oath then the marriage is dissolved but nobody is punished. If they do not swear then they are punished accordingly.
And when the accuser is not eirther of the partners?
415
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.24.4
And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-hmm
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So, which act re you referring to zina or rape, because they are completely different things. i.e. what about accusing a murdered person of taking advantage of the gun property of the person who murdered him or her?
Salaam
I was just realy getting to the four witness drama!
If i accuse someones wife/daughter/sister of being an adulterous! i need 4 witnesses or keep it quite , irrespective of how many times i might have cought them doing it
peace
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Yes, I think so. You might go to the spouse of the person, but what would you do with that. May be de spouse knows already and doesn't want anything done. And if not he or she will learn it in due course. It is inevitable, unless of course the spouse doesn't want to know.
On the other hand I find that it must really be a wonder that one catches a person repeatedly in fraganti in the act. One needs some markmanship for that or to mind business which are not his or hers.
Salaam
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Yes, I think so. You might go to the spouse of the person, but what would you do with that. May be de spouse knows already and doesn't want anything done. And if not he or she will learn it in due course. It is inevitable, unless of course the spouse doesn't want to know.
On the other hand I find that it must really be a wonder that one catches a person repeatedly in fraganti in the act. One needs some markmanship for that or to mind business which are not his or hers.
Salaam
Well i think the quistion is should we report it or not? if we should then how? as you must have the four witnesses!
Just to make it easier , say it was your sister in law or your daugter in law- of course you will ....
angel
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I go by the thrust of the ayas of the Qur'an that deal with this matter. As I have said I think in this same thread, the trust is to thwart gossip and slandering. Most od the condemnation if not all contained in those ayas is for slanderers and what awaits them in this world and in the akhira. Therefore I do not see that any emhasis is placed on the need to accuse, on the need to reveal, on the need to uncover things which are covered. I do not recall tht anywhere it is said that it is anybody's duties to do such thing or to collect or recruit witnesses for it nor to chase hiding zanis or anything like that.
In fact I think it is very clever the way the Qur'an was composed in this aspect, because it makes it clear what a heinous and evil zina is, but it does not encourage people to look for it or for zanis or zniyas, but quite the opposite it uses it to pund on slanderers and gossipers, promising the worst curse in this life and the next.
No, I do not think that anybody has to go fishing for witnesses for such a thing.
If the spouse knows, let him or her deal with it. If he or she doesnt, he or she will know eventually if it continues. If it does not continue, what is the use of wrecking anybody's life from the outside? We all make mistakes, we all have shortcomings, we don't like to be watched and scrutinized for our thoughts and intimate doings. If people can repent without affecting others and their stability, let them. If not, eventually it is known, at leas by those interested, and if those interested can live with it, who are third persons who are not exposed publicly to such inmorality to intrude in private life? They will answer to God, as we all will have to answer for our failings, but what is the need to make of it a public affair if those concerned do not want to?
Salaam
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I go by the thrust of the ayas of the Qur'an that deal with this matter. As I have said I think in this same thread, the trust is to thwart gossip and slandering. Most od the condemnation if not all contained in those ayas is for slanderers and what awaits them in this world and in the akhira. Therefore I do not see that any emhasis is placed on the need to accuse, on the need to reveal, on the need to uncover things which are covered. I do not recall tht anywhere it is said that it is anybody's duties to do such thing or to collect or recruit witnesses for it nor to chase hiding zanis or anything like that.
In fact I think it is very clever the way the Qur'an was composed in this aspect, because it makes it clear what a heinous and evil zina is, but it does not encourage people to look for it or for zanis or zniyas, but quite the opposite it uses it to pund on slanderers and gossipers, promising the worst curse in this life and the next.
No, I do not think that anybody has to go fishing for witnesses for such a thing.
If the spouse knows, let him or her deal with it. If he or she doesnt, he or she will know eventually if it continues. If it does not continue, what is the use of wrecking anybody's life from the outside? We all make mistakes, we all have shortcomings, we don't like to be watched and scrutinized for our thoughts and intimate doings. If people can repent without affecting others and their stability, let them. If not, eventually it is known, at leas by those interested, and if those interested can live with it, who are third persons who are not exposed publicly to such inmorality to intrude in private life? They will answer to God, as we all will have to answer for our failings, but what is the need to make of it a public affair if those concerned do not want to?
Salaam
I don't agree with you ,
I suppose if you don't want to stop it you don't need witnesses at all.
wow
I wonder how many other quranists-if you are one , agree with you.
If i had evidance , i would present it to the person concerned, most definately, but not in an Islamic country.
peace
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I don't agree with you ,
I suppose if you don't want to stop it you don't need witnesses at all.
wow
I wonder how many other quranists-if you are one , agree with you.
If i had evidance , i would present it to the person concerned, most definately, but not in an Islamic country.
peace
Well, does the Qur'an support that course of action? I don't need that anybody agree with me, I do not care abour that. The question is what does the Qur'an enjoin. I do not think it enjoins going around throwing "discoveries" on people.
But there is one case where I agree that one should do something. If we know the zani or zaniya, if we know some way to do it usefully, we should approach him or her and do our best to make them desist of their wrong actions. If THAT is done, as I say in the most intelligent way possible, it would be commendable. About running errands carrying filth I don't think it serves any good purpose.
As I say, the Qur'an orders us to enjoin what is good an virtuous, so we may do that with the zani, but I can't recall that it enjoins us to run to a husband or wife and tell him or her, your spouse is cheating you. IF the Qur'an wanted us to do that, it would contain some indication in that direction. I can't recall that, but if there is, of course we should be aware, so please let us know.
Salaam
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Well, does the Qur'an support that course of action? I don't need that anybody agree with me, I do not care abour that. The question is what does the Qur'an enjoin. I do not think it enjoins going around throwing "discoveries" on people.
No! seriously, No! come on.
In that case if you see a murder , you should not report it , where in the quran does it say, that you must?
But there is one case where I agree that one should do something. If we know the zani or zaniya, if we know some way to do it usefully, we should approach him or her and do our best to make them desist of their wrong actions. If THAT is done, as I say in the most intelligent way possible, it would be commendable. About running errands carrying filth I don't think it serves any good purpose.
of course if this sort of action can safe guard a relationship but at the same time reprimand someone from committing a grave sin, what can be better handshake
As I say, the Qur'an orders us to enjoin what is good an virtuous, so we may do that with the zani, but I can't recall that it enjoins us to run to a husband or wife and tell him or her, your spouse is cheating you. IF the Qur'an wanted us to do that, it would contain some indication in that direction. I can't recall that, but if there is, of course we should be aware, so please let us know.
Again if the quran wanted us to report a murder surely it would have enlightened you, yes?
But we are some what going off topic-i think;
The quistion is only to do with 4 theory is best or not 4 theory is best?with 4 theory;
1;
If you see your daughter in law having it off, by the 4 theory you cannot aproach her as doing such with so and so or you could be lashed and your word made worthless - according to the quran , yes? (24.4)and No 4 theory;
2;
If you see her doing such an act and aproach her with evidance to that effect could reprimand her to the point of giving up that,yae?So is 4 theory in the quran or No 4 theory.
Don't answer it if you don't want.
confused
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Obviously the Qur'an considers zina and murder very differently since, to start with, it does not impose 4 witnesses for murder.
At any rate if you read sura An-nur up to aya 20 and you think that it enjoins going to the spouse or whoever and spitting his or her spouses indelity, then it is up to you. I do not get the impression that that is what we are asked to do. Far from it.
As to reprimand anybody, I do not usually do that. I am not their guardian, but I may be their friend or, if possible, act as such and, in a friendly way, try to find out why they do what they do and reason and try to make them think and reflect. You do not crash on people, foremost because people, I included, do not take well to being overrun. They prefer to be taken as people with whom one can speak.
As to the husband or wife of the zani, it might well be that they would prefer their adulterous other to somebody who comes to their door uncalled and throws on them such great news(?).
Salaam
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Obviously the Qur'an considers zina and murder very differently since, to start with, it does not impose 4 witnesses for murder.
At any rate if you read sura An-nur up to aya 20 and you think that it enjoins going to the spouse or whoever and spitting his or her spouses indelity, then it is up to you. I do not get the impression that that is what we are asked to do. Far from it.
As to reprimand anybody, I do not usually do that. I am not their guardian, but I may be their friend or, if possible, act as such and, in a friendly way, try to find out why they do what they do and reason and try to make them think and reflect. You do not crash on people, foremost because people, I included, do not take well to being overrun. They prefer to be taken as people with whom one can speak.
As to the husband or wife of the zani, it might well be that they would prefer their adulterous other to somebody who comes to their door uncalled and throws on them such great news(?).
Salaam
An accusation , is an accusation isn't it a sort of reprimand "owe he knows", And you think people will take it laying down?
According to the present translation you can't accuse without 4 witnesses.
24.4
And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-An accusation can only be made if we don't need four witnesses, otherwise you are in the wrong whether you are trying to be helpful or not.
But on the other hand if you do want to politely encourage one close to you to stop something that could drastically hurt them later- give them some factual evidance to the affair, may be that you did see so and so ..........one witness?
The quistion is simple four or a strong factual evidance?
&
of course if we don't care to oblige in any form, then that is between us and Allah and we will be party to the affair, as i see.
peace
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If you approach somebody on a personal level and have a talk, that is not launching anything and you do not need any evidence. The person knows what he or she does, you do not need to convince them. But, if you run to somebody else but the culprit then you may get into trouble, because that indeed would be charging someone, and I can't see how you can get evidence on that, actual evidence, not circumstancial evidence, because if you can have actual evidence youcould also have prevented the deed.
The problem I see in your understanding is that you seem to see in the dispositions of the Qur'an a purpose which is not contemplated in the Qur'an. The Qur'an seems to have no problem with the fact that the zanis are not caught. It does have a big problem with the fact that the eople use the purported existence of zina to spread malevolence in society an destroy it, particularly women, with slandering and gossip.
People do many wrong and wicked things in life which are not typified as crimes and which are horrible. Zina without four witnesses is one of them. So, what is the big deal? We live with that, we are meant to live with that. You cannot fight wrong all the time and every wrong with the criminal code. We should live ourselves as virtuously as we can, but we cannot bring a "perfect" society merely by perscuting and spying on people. The remedy would be worse than the disease. Which, I guess, is the reason for those ayas of the Qur'an where slandering is so strongly condemned and cursed.
As to evidence, that is a matter of the courts. If you go and testify to a court that you have witnessed zina, then be ready to be questionned to ascertain that in fact you did see witness what you say and that you are not slandering anybody. A court will not or should not accept any witnessing on faith, but on proof, that is its job. So yes, four witnessed twhose testimony is completely satisfactory.
Salaam
Salaam
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357, how lovely it is to have you back. I think Huruf is right. Rape is not zina. After all the word used in 24/2 is zaniyah which shows that person wilfully particpated in the act. That is contrary to the definition of rape.
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I think Zina and Rape is two different thing.
Zina is consensual sex where as Rape is not. Rape is oppression for example in the following verse
4025 Then, when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Kill the children of those who acknowledged with him, and shame their women." But the scheming of the ingrates is always in error.
There is example in the following verses that circumstantial evidence could be used in case of Rape. DNA test is common nowadays
1225-1228
Where as in case of Zina/adultery 4 witness has been mentioned to my understanding discourage and warn the wicked people who blame innocent women of committing adultery.
244 And those who accuse the protected women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
Peace
Abdullah
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And when the accuser is not eirther of the partners?
{cut}
If it is a rape then the accuser is making a claim of aggression towards themselves, not infidelity/fornication. Which is out of the bounds of the 4 witness law.
If the accuser is privy to the knowledge of a person cheating on someone else they would do very good to keep their mouth shut and gather the necessary evidence or witnesses. Clearly as Huruf said the desired outcome is first and foremost social stability as all the zanis are going to meet their bitter punishment at the hands of one able and wise in their own due time.
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Salaams Br's,
I agree with you in that rape isn't same as Zina - consensual sex, but pitty is that the four witness law is applied to rape cases aswell in Pakistan, Bangladesh........., and women raped don't get any justice as no body can gather the four witnesses.
Even putting that aside if you see your daughter or mother or sister in law or daughter in law or someone else close to you who you may want to protect............., even then you cannot accuse them- so they safe guard themselves, of anything due to the four witnesses being required.
Four does not mean four in the quran, to my knowledge.
peace
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peace
I have always understood it as needing 4 witnesses , otherwise a female can't complain of a rape, if she does then she must be punished for not providing 4 witnesses.
Some people are so much programmed with traditional beliefs , they agree with this law , well as do all traditionalists and their alims and molvis, but what do the people here think?
peace
The four witness was designed for slander and to prevent someone from slandering even if he actually saw something. This is the Quran's way of telling people to mind their own business when it comes to adultery. Its four times easier for a person to be punished for slandering than for adultery. The aduletry side is symbolic like Moses telling his people to take their lives. Of course very few people can do something like that so God forgave them. But the goal is to make us understand the magnitude of the sin.
Rape is not adultery or slandering. Rape falls into the same category as murder and theft. Its enough to establish the guilt. But with adultery the issue is far more complicated since there is a conflict between individual freedom and another party's rights.
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free for all, is this what the quran is teaching?
confused
Salaam, 357,
I have the feeling that you give a lot of store to people punishing people. But people make mistakes and they are no authority.
You know it is not free for all, but it is not free for all either spying on people, persecuting people and trying to force the rules to punish people. Don't you think the best punisher es God? What better punisher do you want? Do you think there are not many other sins and meanness in the world that go unpunished by people, do you also say in those cases that it is free for all? If I cheat, since the Qur'an does not impose on anybody to lash me or do anything to me, is it free for me to cheat?
Please, do quote something from the Qur'an which warrants what you say it warrants.
What I find from the whole content of the 20 first ayas of An-nur is that God does not approve of those who go around looking for filth or displaying it.
Privacy os no whim. Without privacy most people if not all would be punishable from many points of view. If we uncover everything looking for filth we would all end up buried in filth. Modesty is that, to keep our shames for ourselves and not expose others to them. Wrongs can be righted any time by those itnerested. Who is calling you to uncover people who may improve, who may learn through errors? Are you perfect in everywise? What is it to you if a spouse has an adulterous partner and wants to be patient or understand that he or she may have given a motive to his or her partner to fall into such behaviour? ?What do you know? It is not your business. It is theirs. Let them live and learn and suffer if they have to. If they ask for your help, help them, but do not walk in as if you were coming down from mount Sinai with God's wrath, it is not your business. Let them repent if they want or not repent and suffer, but do not assume an authority you do not have.
As said, quote from the Qur'an anythign that warrants such a behaviour.
Salaam