Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
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Wakas are you playing some kind of game? The question is very simple and yet you refuse to answer. This is an adult conversation about what you (hopefully) consider a sacred act - writing about a divine text. I am now probing your view about what is QURANIC. You have given a definition using PERTINENCE as an indicator. Both Aidid and Simple write PERTAINING to the Quran.
Are their writings Quranic or not?
Call it whatever number you want. If you're afraid to answer, just let me know. I can see we're very close to undermining your pretence of authority by how you keep avoiding the question. Let me know so I can stop wasting my time. Thanks.
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Amusingly you claim I am refusing to answer yet I clearly said "If you do not, I will use the above as your 3rd question." clearly implying I am happy to answer it. I am simply objecting to your 2nd question dragging on for seemingly endless follow-ups.
Finally, the 3rd question
Farouk asks
Are their (i.e. Aidid and Simple) writings Quranic or not?I cannot comment on "Aidid" and "Simple" in such general terms. However, if you require more elaboration, I would say sometimes what they state could be regarded as "Quranic" but sometimes not.
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Amusingly you claim I am refusing to answer yet I clearly said "If you do not, I will use the above as your 3rd question." clearly implying I am happy to answer it. I am simply objecting to your 2nd question dragging on for seemingly endless follow-ups.
You can ask me thousands of questions if you want as long as you address my questions. As I said, I have lots more thought experiments to run.
I cannot comment on "Aidid" and "Simple" in such general terms. However, if you require more elaboration, I would say sometimes what they state could be regarded as "Quranic" but sometimes not
.So even though their writings PERTAINS to the Quran (we're not talking about their sports commentaries, right?) , 'sometimes' their writings are NOT Quranic. Ok. When are their writings 'Quranic' ?
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So even though their writings PERTAINS to the Quran (we're not talking about their sports commentaries, right?) , 'sometimes' their writings are NOT Quranic. Ok. When are their writings 'Quranic' ?
Unfortunately your question assumes their writings pertain to the Quran. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont.
They are "Quranic" when they are "of/from or pertaining to The Quran".
And before you ask another follow-up, let me help you out by way of example, if someone says Quran allows you to beat your wife and they cite verse 434 - if you were to ask me is their post/work "Quranic"? I'd say no, because it's not actually from Quran.
Now, please move onto your next question. Thanks.
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Unfortunately your question assumes their writings pertain to the Quran. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont.
They are "Quranic" when they are "of/from or pertaining to The Quran".
Lovely. Aidid says 'salat' means 'commitments'. This is a 'QURANIC view', correct?
And before you ask another follow-up, let me help you out by way of example, if someone says Quran allows you to beat your wife and they cite verse 434 - if you were to ask me is their post/work "Quranic"? I'd say no, because it's not actually from Quran.
Contradiction.
Only two seconds ago, the definition was about pertinence, now it's about YOUR agreement of the interpretation of darb.
Is your view on 4/34 'Quranic' ? Please substantiate why?
Now, please move onto your next question. Thanks.
That would be akin to slaving all day preparing a gourmet meal and when it's dinner time, to chuck it in the trash.
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Contradiction.
Only two seconds ago, the definition was about pertinence, now it's about YOUR agreement of the interpretation of darb.Perhaps you are unclear as to the meaning of "pertaining", see below, the first three definitions given by google
pertain
verb/prtn/
pertained, past participle;pertained, past tense;pertaining, present participle;pertains, 3rd person singular presentBe appropriate, related, or applicable
- matters pertaining to the organization of government
Belong to something as a part, appendage, or accessory
- the premises, stock, and all assets pertaining to the business
Be in effect or existence in a specified place or at a specified time
Amusingly, according to how you are interpreting what I said, if someone said "Quran allows you to do handstands and cartwheels on your wife, and cites 434" you'd imply that's "Quranic" in my view, for the mere fact they happened to cite a Quran verse. As I said, it's not actually from Quran, hence cannot be classed as "Quranic". Simple.
Is this your next question?
Is your view on 4/34 'Quranic' ? Please substantiate why?
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Be appropriate, RELATED or applicable
Did you actually read this definition or what? What Aidid and Simple talk about RELATE to the Quran. It's about a word IN the Quran. 'Salah' is a word in the Quran and Aidid says it means 'commitments', so since it RELATES to the Quran and is APPROPRIATE in a Quranic discussion and APPLICABLE if one asks about opinions about 'salah, then it IS a Quranic view, correct?
Amusingly, according to how you are interpreting what I said, if someone said "Quran allows you to do handstands and cartwheels on your wife, and cites 434" you'd imply that's "Quranic" in my view, for the mere fact they happened to cite a Quran verse. As I said, it's not actually from Quran, hence cannot be classed as "Quranic". Simple.
Simplicity is a trick some people use to hide their reasons for authoritarian readings so I don't buy 'simple' as an explanation, sorry. The matter is a FAR MORE COMPLICATED than cut and paste style use of language.
What do you mean 'not ACTUALLY from Quran'? What is 'FROM Quran'? Are your views FROM Quran?
Please DESCRIBE the process to show how somethng can be FROM QURAN and thus Quranic.Is this your next question?
Whatever you like, if my credit runs out, just stop answering. Lets play childish games instead of engaging in adult discussions.
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What a surprise..... yet more follow-up Qs.
Did you actually read this definition or what? What Aidid and Simple talk about RELATE to the Quran. It's about a word IN the Quran. 'Salah' is a word in the Quran and Aidid says it means 'commitments', so since it RELATES to the Quran and is APPROPRIATE in a Quranic discussion and APPLICABLE if one asks about opinions about 'salah, then it IS a Quranic view, correct?
Your own above wording exposes the problem. Note how you insert explanations to justify how "relate", "appropriate" and "applicable" work in this situation, e.g. "APPLICABLE if one asks about opinions about 'salah". Who said anything about it being dependent on if someone asks opinions about something?
I simply said "Quranic" means "of/from or pertaining to Quran". If we substitute "pertain" for the dictionary meanings, we have
"of/from or appropriate/related/applicable to Quran".Then gave examples, e.g. " if someone says Quran allows you to beat your wife and they cite verse 434 - if you were to ask me is their post/work "Quranic"? I'd say no, because it's not actually from Quran."
Since I said it is not possible to comment on Aidid/Simple in such general terms, you now ask about a specific. You've made some progress. ;D You state
"Aidid says 'salat' means 'commitments'. This is a 'QURANIC view', correct?
Unlikely, because "salat" seems to be the singular thus cannot mean "commitments". "salawat" is the plural. I have not seen evidence from Quran to the contrary, nor did Aidid supply any. If a person does not supply any evidence from Quran for their chosen meaning then it cannot be classed as "Quranic". Simple.
You then seem to ask about the meaning of "from", see here.
Next question?
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What a surprise..... yet more follow-up Qs.
Of course. This is an academic discussion, not Sesame Street.
Your own above wording exposes the problem. Note how you insert explanations to justify how "relate", "appropriate" and "applicable" work in this situation, e.g. "APPLICABLE if one asks about opinions about 'salah". Who said anything about it being dependent on if someone asks opinions about something?
THANK YOU. You're absolutely right. Who INDEED DID SAY that one has to ask the question? In other words, who articulates how we derive the information? YOU? Why should we trust you? You run and promote PRL, a project which LEAVES OUT meanings from the VERY SOURCE it links its readers to showing OBVIOUS BIAS.
What Aidid opines about salah relates, and is appropriate AND is applicable. Of course it won't be applicable if you deliberately shut him out using YOUR CRITERIA but then who can trust your criteria? Definitely not anyone who expects you to represent Lanes, right?
I simply said "Quranic" means "of/from or pertaining to Quran". If we substitute "pertain" for the dictionary meanings, we have
"of/from or appropriate/related/applicable to Quran".Oh lovely, now we're back to the question you avoided in my group. So we have your definition '"of/from or appropriate/related/applicable to Quran'. Next question (let me know if I need to put in another coin) - ACCORDING TO WHOM?
Then gave examples, e.g. " if someone says Quran allows you to beat your wife and they cite verse 434 - if you were to ask me is their post/work "Quranic"? I'd say no, because it's not actually from Quran."
Good. what makes YOUR VIEW from Quran, if indeed it is?
Since I said it is not possible to comment on Aidid/Simple in such general terms, you now ask about a specific. You've made some progress. ;D
Thank you so much for your compliment, I'm always looking to progress further. That's why my view is never 'comprehensive' or 'detailed' as some people claim theirs are (although those claims are nothing more than pretexts for authority and can easily fall like a house of cards).
You state
Unlikely, because "salat" seems to be the singular thus cannot mean "commitments". "salawat" is the plural. I have not seen evidence from Quran to the contrary, nor did Aidid supply any. If a person does not supply any evidence from Quran for their chosen meaning then it cannot be classed as "Quranic". Simple.Are you saying that singular words cannot represent a plural quantity of the signified? What then is a unit of 'zakat' please?
Next question?
Will never come until we fully expose the REAL meanings behind your position )
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That's why my view is never 'comprehensive' or 'detailed'...
I think that's the most accurate thing you've said so far. ;D I've noticed that about your writings. In fact, I have never read anything written by you which has tackled any subject in the Quran in detail*. Interesting. If you have such works, let us know.
*e.g. discusses every occurrence of a word in Quran.
Since your 3rd question, you have asked 19 follow-up questions! Quite a feat.
Since you stated "You can ask me thousands of questions if you want as long as you address my questions." and seem very keen to ask me many follow-up questions, how about we even things out, e.g. every follow-up Q counts towards our Q&A. That way I can finally move onto asking you Qs without having to wait for you to move on after asking many follow-ups - what say you?
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I think that's the most accurate thing you've said so far. ;D I've noticed that about your writings. In fact, I have never read anything written by you which has tackled any subject in the Quran in detail*. Interesting. If you have such works, let us know. [
*e.g. discusses every occurrence of a word in Quran.Thanks. My works are notes. I make them with the meaning to return to them to enrich them in the future.
Please show proof that discussing every occurence of a WORD shows a detailed or comprehensive study.
Since your 3rd question, you have asked 19 follow-up questions! Quite a feat.
As I said, this is not Sesame Street. If you don't want to continue, I fully understand.
Since you stated "You can ask me thousands of questions if you want as long as you address my questions." and seem very keen to ask me many follow-up questions, how about we even things out, e.g. every follow-up Q counts towards our Q&A. That way I can finally move onto asking you Qs without having to wait for you to move on after asking many follow-ups - what say you?
Sure, ask as many as you like. I am here for this thread here and I will gladly indulge you in discussion in return. Fire away as many as you like.
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So question still remaining Is your view from the Quran or Quranic and if so, why?
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I make them with the meaning to return to them to enrich them in the future.
Sounds a bit like what I often write in my articles, e.g.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
This work reflects my personal understanding, as of X date. Seeking knowledge is a continual process and I will try to improve my understanding of the signs within 'the reading' (al quran) and out with it, unless The God wills otherwise. All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible 1736, 20114, 3528, 496, 5811.
I like to add disclaimers such as the above in my works. Some dont add such things to their writings, e.g. you.
Please show proof that discussing every occurence of a WORD shows a detailed or comprehensive study.
It's simple really, I'm using the standard dictionary definitions of the words "detailed" and "comprehensive". If you are of the view not analysing all occurrences of a word in Quran is "comprehensive"/"detailed" that's fine.
But thanks for clarifying you have never written anything that could be classed as detailed/comprehensive on any subject in the entire Quran in your many years of studying it.
So question still remaining Is your view from the Quran or Quranic and if so, why?
I need a specific.
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Sounds a bit like what I often write in my articles, e.g.
I like to add disclaimers such as the above in my works. Some dont add such things to their writings, e.g. you.
I do add 'please comment and criticise' when I remember but yeah, not always. At the same time, I also don't attack and harass people if they fail to respond to me. Some people do, they shall remain nameless of course as my lawyers have advised me D
It's simple really, I'm using the standard dictionary definitions of the words "detailed" and "comprehensive". If you are of the view not analysing all occurrences of a word in Quran is "comprehensive"/"detailed" that's fine.
No it's not simple, really. I asked you for PROOF that studying a particular WORD (lets say 'darb' in ALL occurences makes a study detailed or comprehensive. Proof here means from the Quran.
But thanks for clarifying you have never written anything that could be classed as detailed/comprehensive on any subject in the entire Quran in your many years of studying it.
Of course, anyone who thinks they CAN write in detail and comprehensively about the Quran are delusional and often prone to assert themselves as authorities. I am no authority. I drink from the Quranic fountain from my own subjective bias as you do as well.
Please don't forget about the quranic proof that studying a WORD in all occurences makes a comprehensive study. I await your evidence.
I need a specific.
On 4/34 and even more specifically, idribuhunna.
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I do add 'please comment and criticise' when I remember but yeah, not always.
You did block my critique commentary from being posted on your blog though. Is this an example of you deliberately manipulating the information readers of your blog view? Yes/No. ;D
No it's not simple, really. I asked you for PROOF that studying a particular WORD (lets say 'darb' in ALL occurences makes a study detailed or comprehensive. Proof here means from the Quran.
I assume the author of Quran wants us to read all of it, ergo, every occurrence of a word, ergo, analyse its every occurrence. Are you implying otherwise?
And once again, I am using the dictionary definitions of "detailed" and "comprehensive".
On 4/34 and even more specifically, idribuhunna.
Yes, because I based my answer on Quran and provided evidence from it for the case I put forward. However, that does not mean you or others will also consider it "Quranic". I do not know what you or others take "Quranic" to mean.
In the example you gave from Aidid's work he did not provide any evidence whatsoever from Quran that "salat" is "commitments" (plural). However, that does not mean you or others cant consider it "Quranic". I do not know what you or others take "Quranic" to mean.
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You did block my critique commentary from being posted on your blog though. Is this an example of you deliberately manipulating the information readers of your blog view? Yes/No. ;D
What? I don't know what you're talking about. None of your posts have been deleted from anywhere.
I assume the author of Quran wants us to read all of it, ergo, every occurrence of a word, ergo, analyse its every occurrence. Are you implying otherwise?
No, I'm not implying otherwise. Kindly read the question carefully. I asked you, does analysing every occurence of a word makes one's analysis comprehensive?
Lets try this another way Your AMAH analysis is detailed and comprehensive. Why do you deem it so?
Yes, because I based my answer on Quran and provided evidence from it for the case I put forward. However, that does not mean you or others will also consider it "Quranic". I do not know what you or others take "Quranic" to mean.
Well Aidid based his answer on the Quran too, its on a quranic word according to his understanding JUST LIKE YOU. So by that definition, he is as quranic as you are.
In the example you gave from Aidid's work he did not provide any evidence whatsoever from Quran that "salat" is "commitments" (plural). However, that does not mean you or others cant consider it "Quranic". I do not know what you or others take "Quranic" to mean.
Great, so now we get to the heart of the matter - who decides what is Quranic?
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What? I don't know what you're talking about. None of your posts have been deleted from anywhere.
I never said "deleted", I said "blocked". Please read carefully. All I know is, I posted it to your site but it never appeared. Funny that.
If you are implying my critique would not be blocked from being posted on your site, then please state here clearly and it will be posted on your site for all to see.
Lets try this another way Your AMAH analysis is detailed and comprehensive. Why do you deem it so?
Because in my view it fulfils the dictionary definitions of detailed/comprehensive, by incorporating certain things, e.g.
it analyses all occurrences of AMAH (a rather obvious requirement)
it attempts to explain all occurrences
it uses significant Quran cross-reference
it weighs up multiple options, discussing pros/cons for each
it is more in-depth than any other study I have seen on AMAH
it is built upon analyses of sjd and masjidThe very fact you could not link to any work that you'd consider more detailed/comprehensive is telling in my view. Whether one agrees with it or not is another matter.
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I never said "deleted", I said "blocked". Please read carefully. All I know is, I posted it to your site but it never appeared. Funny that.
If you are implying my critique would not be blocked from being posted on your site, then please state here clearly and it will be posted on your site for all to see.
If you're talking about quranists.net (which is my SITE), then I don't see where the critique would fit in. If you're talking about quranology.name (which is my BLOG) , then of course. Please post it there. I do believe in free discussion.
Because in my view it fulfils the dictionary definitions of detailed/comprehensive, by incorporating certain things, e.g.
it analyses all occurrences of AMAH (a rather obvious requirement)
it attempts to explain all occurrences
it uses significant Quran cross-reference
it weighs up multiple options, discussing pros/cons for each
it is more in-depth than any other study I have seen on AMAH
it is built upon analyses of sjd and masjidThe very fact you could not link to any work that you'd consider more detailed/comprehensive is telling in my view. Whether one agrees with it or not is another matter.
Just because I can't show a more detailed work, THAT make your work detailed and comprehensive? What kind of logic is that? It's utter nonsense. If you said 'its the most comprehensive view in existece', then maybe but even that is arguable.
Your work analyses WORDS but not SENTENCES let alone PASSAGES. In the opening argument itself, you failed to account for the implications of masjid al-haram and aqsa being in one sentence and why they are there. Why are nuh and musa mentioned immediately after that? what links the two masjids in 17/1 with the masjid 17/7?
What's the point of analysing words if you fail to analyse where the words are and the point of the chapter? Does the Quran speak in words? No it does not. It speaks in AYAT and you don't analyse ayat but rather ripped out phrases at best. 'Comprehensive' is not a fit description for your work notwithstanding the fact that it's the longest there is. Maybe there's an award for that?
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Repeat question WHO decides what is Quranic?
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If you're talking about quranists.net (which is my SITE), then I don't see where the critique would fit in. If you're talking about quranology.name (which is my BLOG) , then of course. Please post it there. I do believe in free discussion.
You know fine well what site I'm referring to. It is obviously your blog wherein you made the post on 2196, and the one I link to in my critique
http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/critique/quranology-2196.htmlJust because I can't show a more detailed work, does it make your work detailed and comprehensive? What kind of logic is that? It's utter nonsense.
I never said it does, I said its "telling". Please read carefully (PRC).
If you said 'its the most comprehensive view in existece', then maybe but even that is arguable.
Fine, we can agree on it is the most comprehensive view in existence. Sounds good to me.
Your work analyses WORDS but not SENTENCES let alone PASSAGES. In the opening argument itself, you failed to account for the implications of masjid al-haram and aqsa being in one sentence and why they are there. Why are nuh and musa mentioned immediately after that? what links the two masjids in 17/1 with the masjid 17/7?
Your above claim is laughable (and I actually did laugh a little).
You claim I did not analyse the ayat and/or take into account AMAH being in the same verse as AMAA, when this is clearly and blatantly analysed in the article. PRC. I discuss Moses, but not Nuh as he is mentioned in passing.
what links the two masjids in 17/1 with the masjid 17/7?
I have to ask, are you just wasting my time with your so-called objections/questions to my method/works? Anyone can read what I wrote and see I discuss what you asked, in fact, very clearly
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlInterestingly, the context for 177 is established by the dual mention of "masjid" in 171, and it just so happens to mention "enter al maSJD just as they entered it the first time", implying a minimum of two "masjid" are of relevance - coincidence?
I then go onto explain it.
If you cant accept something as simple as that I discuss the link, then there is very little you will accept.
