New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?

Wakas

Mazhar, why are you asking me to translate 2225 when I have already done so in my article?

See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

This verse causes some problems for the 'institution/act/place of SJD' understandings. For example, the Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not open to mankind (only those classed as "Muslim" and as far as I am aware no-one resides in the Mosque. If it is argued they did reside there in the past but not now, then there is no warrant for this in AQ. Not surprisingly, some commentators regard AMAH as referring to the sanctuary and/or Mecca as a whole. In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation.

Ashraf

2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

This verse causes some problems for the 'institution/act/place of SJD' understandings. For example, the Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not open to mankind (only those classed as "Muslim" and as far as I am aware no-one resides in the Mosque. If it is argued they did reside there in the past but not now, then there is no warrant for this in AQ. Not surprisingly, some commentators regard AMAH as referring to the sanctuary and/or Mecca as a whole. In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation.

Dear bro Wakas,

Imho, there is no issue about AMAH as the location or in my rendering "the restricted service center" (or they might be other better phrase to describe) because

"those who concealed and obstruct " is really happening now in terms of promoting wrong location of mekkah/masjid/kaabah, as well promoting wrong understanding about Hajj and its associated rituals, which go against the path of Allah.
AMAH can smoothly meant as public service center to mankind at that particular ABAH (Al-bayt Al-Haram) because people of different faith, inside/outside ABAH should be able to came there and get their livestock supply distribution (which is available in abundant) during HAJJ (Overcoming) period. HAJJ among others mean "overcoming the restricted wild life hunting period with alternative food supply which is livestock".
It was made known to people inside/outside/surrounding ABAH about prophet Ibrahim campaign, not to hunt wild life for few months in a year. They came to AMAH to participate by contributing for some as well consuming for some. From therewith the words of Allah and the believe in god spread to the entire region.
Off course if they came from far (baadi/traveller), they need to stay for few days, erect their tents and stay surrounding the service center (masjid). Prophet Ibrahim saw, is welcoming people from all kind of beliefs to the service center because he was entrusted with the task to preach God laws. Words of Allah spread from this center.
"Akif" imho here is the one who stay close and inside the service center eg. especially to the poor traveler, as well the administration team, that need to work hard to manage the situation throughout the hajj period. There must be a proper management headed by Prophet Ibrahim saw and its support team. Subsequently during the time of prophet Muhammad, this center was also managed/controlled by polytheist/disbeliever mixed up with wrongdoings as time goes by.

There's nothing holy about AMAH. This hajj things must be managed from the command center (AMAH). It will not happen smooth without proper management in place.

Peace,
Ashraf

Mazhar

Mazhar, why are you asking me to translate 2225 when I have already done so in my article?

See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Salam Wakas.

You have reproduced earlier translation, there masjid-al-haram gives the perception only of a location-a place. My request was this

Please translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.

Wakas

salaam Ashraf,

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, however I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the restricted service center". If it is a building, then one should insert this understanding into the masjid article and AMAH article and see what results.

I assume it would result in similar problems, as listed for "the sacred mosque" for example, see below

'The Sacred Mosque' fares most poorly in 171, 2142-150, 2217, 928, and relatively poorly in 2196, 2225, 919. Also, please note that traditional commentators (e.g. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas) frequently switch their understanding of AMAH depending on verse, e.g. it can mean 'the sacred site/area of prostration' in 171, 'kaaba (cuboid)' in 2144/2149/2150, 'the sanctuary / Mecca' in 2196, 2217, 2225, 928. Usually, when one forces an incorrect understanding into AQ it will result in inconsistency/variance/contradiction, see the important test of 482. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.

'the restriced/inviolable act of SJD/compliance' and 'the inviolable institution of SJD/obedience' fare most poorly in 171, 2196, and relatively poorly in 2142-150, 2225, 919, 928. Since these two are novel understandings there has been little analytical discussion about them. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it is recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.

salaam mazhar,

I assume you say that because of the use of "akif" (devotee/resident) and "baadi" (bedouin/traveller). However, "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is enforced over an area, and in this area, there would be those resident in it and those travelling to it.
See the article for explanation by analogy, e.g.

"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "

The point is that your translation as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is self-contradictory. What your translation is saying is that it is OK to not obey/acknowledge and instead disobey/reject outside that time. I hope that you can see this major logical problem.

You may try to use the "inviolable full-moons" as an analogy but this is a false analogy since in the case of "the inviolable full-moons" there is no act of obedience/acknowledgement inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.

I hope that we don't go on and on discussing very small details while missing the biggest glaring logical issue.

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

Please translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.

salaam mazhar,

I assume you say that because of the use of "akif" (devotee/resident) and "baadi" (bedouin/traveller). However, "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is enforced over an area, and in this area, there would be those resident in it and those travelling to it.
See the article for explanation by analogy, e.g.

"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "

My request is only to please put, whatever is the philosophy of your concept, in the translation of Ayah to see what it in turn yields.

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

The point is that your translation as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is self-contradictory. What your translation is saying is that it is OK to not obey/acknowledge and instead disobey/reject outside that time. I hope that you can see this major logical problem.

You may try to use the "inviolable full-moons" as an analogy but this is a false analogy since in the case of "the inviolable full-moons" there is no act of obedience/acknowledgement inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.

You claim it is a false analogy, but there are regulations in place during this time. In fact, your wording gives it away when you say "...inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.". Not with "full-moon" but yes with "inviolable full-moons".

You claim my translation is self-contradictory (I note how you are re-wording the alleged "contradiction" with each following reply you give) but once again, there is no contradiction. Firstly, there is no implication of what you said in the understanding of "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement' (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months)", it is simply what this special time-period is/was known as.
Secondly, the occurrences of AMAH clearly suggest something delimited.
And lastly, what you said can be applied to your understanding, i.e. your translation is saying if in an institution of any kind, other than one related to "government", it is ok to violate it, which is of course a nonsense deduction.

I hope that we don't go on and on discussing very small details while missing the biggest glaring logical issue.

I can understand why you'd prefer to focus on a fictitious "contradiction" rather than answering the questions/problems I pose for your understanding. You have avoided multiple times now.

My approach is relatively simple, if there are multiple options, put the evidence on the table for each option, then weigh/consider it, see which option is strongest etc. If you prefer not to put evidence on the table for your view, that's up to you.

peace Mazhar,

A simple insertion of my translation into the verse would easily satisfy your request, see below

2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and the inviolable time of acknowledgement which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

I hope this is not another incidence of you making a statement, but no actual point of contention WITH evidence.

Mazhar

2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and the inviolable time of acknowledgement which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

Hinder is always from something specific. "Path of Gad" is something definite. Hindering "invoilable time of acknowledgement" seems philospical. "Resident in invoilable time of acknowledgement" is all the more mysterious phenomenon.

Wakas

Hinder is always from something specific. "Path of Gad" is something definite. Hindering "invoilable time of acknowledgement" seems philospical. "Resident in invoilable time of acknowledgement" is all the more mysterious phenomenon.

Already explained in my previous post to you. In any case, if these are the best objections you have, fair enough.

As a side note, with regards to resident/devotee, for consideration, also see 2196 use of "present/at-hand/haadiri". I have added this to my article.

Perhaps you'd also like to try answering some of the issues/questions I raise about other understandings, e.g. the ones applicable to your understanding. It seems there is silence on this aspect of my article.

Mazhar

Already explained in my previous post to you. In any case, if these are the best objections you have, fair enough.

As a side note, with regards to resident/devotee, for consideration, also see 2196 use of "present/at-hand/haadiri". I have added this to my article.

Perhaps you'd also like to try answering some of the issues/questions I raise about other understandings, e.g. the ones applicable to your understanding. It seems there is silence on this aspect of my article.

Peace,

I had ealrier also requested

Others I did not notice. Kindly give reference, so that I might check why I wrote what you did not say. Shall be obliged.

noshirk

Salaam Brother Ayman

I am little frustrated since it is very difficult for me to participate in such a technical subject in the english language.

However, i have to say that i am more agree with the ayman of past years than with the current Ayman.

I still consider that Sujud is hearing with the intention of obeing. We are in sujud when we hear respectfully and we still also in sujud when applying what we have heard (in usual languages i know, hearing can be extended to the act of applying what we heard). Sujud fits perfectly with meaning of Quran (a lecture to hear and then to apply). Sun and planets are in Sujud when they follow physical laws imposed by Gods.
Yusabbihou is , i think, a kind of Sujud appyable only to the part were we are applyng orders (after the action of having heard them). Yusabbihou is derived from word that means swimming and clearly means action.

SEJD is to be opposed to SAMAA ( ) which means hearing without intention of obeing. Samaa i applied many times in quran to unbelivers. SAMAA versus SEJD worth studying while noticing that Quran never says "Hear and obey" since there is the Word Sejd for that While and are used many times separately.

So, Masjid for me still means any "place" where sujud can occurs. I agree with the idea that Masjid can also be applied to a website.

Masjid el Haram is the act of hearing laws of God and can be applied to the place where this can occurs. It is like parliament wich derive from parabolare wich means speaking.
However, Bayt el Haram points more precisely to a location. Abraham built the first bayt wich clearly means that there can be other Bayts.

I am still agree with the old ayman about the fact that Qiblah means way/direction in an allegorical point of view, not in a geographical meaning. Change in Qibla (2-143) means simply the arrival of the last version of "path of God" as teached by quran. In 2-144, after the qibla change, Muhammad was given the task (qibla to follow) to teach the religion in the masjid of Haram. In 2-144, I think that Muhammad was shifting his face towards the heaven, After the Qibla change, asking "Please God, What have I to do now ? what is my task now?".
The order given to followers to turn their face to masjid is also allegorical and means follows orders of God and go to hear his orders where ever we are, as much as possible, to any place were they are teached. Since God is every where, i can't imagine that it is order to face "Mekka" during Salat. Nowhere, Masjid Haram is linked to Salat. I didn't found even a single verse that link a Masjid To the act of salat. Salat means for me connecting to God for leaning (as Old Ayman said), through reading, remembering, thinking and meditating

I still agree with old Ayman to say that Hajj means debate. Hajj is giving arguments and defending islam in any place where people come to hear about islam. Nass (all type of people) and not only believers are invited to Hajj. Ashor Haram and Bayt Haram are juste time and geographical coordinates of Greats meetings for SEJD EL HARAM. These feasts celebrating Words of God (where Hojjajs give Hojajs to Nass) can occurs at many places at the same time.
Please note that it is important that war is not allowed during Hajj since it is important that unbelievers feel secure if they come only to d?bate.

Peace

Wakas

salaam noshirk,

Whilst I appreciate your input on the thread, you have shared a particular understanding but made no attempt to answer some of the key questions/issues I bring up in the article which impact such an understanding. Similar to bro Ayman.

I will admit understanding 'al masjid al haram' seems more intricate than many other subjects in Quran, so time and careful study is needed to digest such a subject, however, determining its meaning will be much easier if people actually bring forth evidence and answers (for whatever view they have).

noshirk

Salaam Brother Wakas.

we can't agree on meaning of Majid Haram if we are not agree on meaning of Sejd.

we both agree however to reject the classical meaning of Sejd as prosternate.

in your article for Sejd you mentionned

Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.

We have to be aware that project root list try to derive meaning from their understanding of quran.

Arabic dictionnaries give another meaning for SEJD

( &#1591
.

( &#1577

. .
. .

.

.

So Sejd would be pay long attention, studiyng, moving head slowly up and down for agreement and obedience.
We all agree that it is an attitude we should have towards words of GOD.
if Sejd is not word for that then what is the word for that in quran ?
Where it is told to us to pay attention to meaning of words God and to study them carefully in order to distinsguish the true path ?

Traces of true Sejd are still visible nowadays even if sujjad no more use their brain.
Jews are still doing that with exaggeration. Muslims have similar head mouvement when simulating understanding words of God while reading Quran.
But it is not the mouvement of the head that is important in Sejd.

Peace

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Sorry for the delayed reply. Things have been extremely busy but I was thinking about this.

I have come to the conclusion than none of the words of the form "MaF3iL" like "MaSJiD", etc. inherently imply time.

I already gave you the example of the word ?MaNTiQ?, which clearly has nothing to do with time but describes the concept of a ?system? of communication.

Even words sometimes viewed as indicating time such as "MaShRiQ" and ?MaGhRiB? do not imply time but imply a dominion or direction.

Plural

Notice here in particular that the same idea in the passage above of inheriting ?MaShARiQ? and ?MaGhARiB? is used to denote that the descendants of Israel inherited gardens and treasures and an honorable status. So again a concept talking about much more than merely a physical place but a place encompassing everything even non-physical things such as ?status? included.

Dual

The dual is interesting because I asked myself what ?two easts? could the passage be talking about that signify the maximum distance? Could it be the winter sunrise and the summer sunrise? Interestingly, the Earth has an elliptical orbit and the widest diameter (longest distance) is approximately those two points, winter sunrise and summer sunrise. So this could be related to the entire system that results in the seasons and the way the earth orbits the sun.

http//i46.tinypic.com/1z4bc5z.gif

At this stage, I would venture to say that NONE of the examples that you gave here inherently imply time by themselves

majzir = the T/P of slaughtering
masjid = the T/P of prostration
masqi6 = the T/P of falling
maskin = the T/P of habitation (certainly a system to rest, the institution of marriage is described in this term).
mashriq = the T/P of the sun rise (No sun inherit in the meaning but it talks about the dominion of East)
ma6li3 (&#1593 = the T/P of ascent
maghrib = the T/P of the sun set (I don?t know from where you got the sun)
mafriq = the T/P of division
marfiq = the T/P of resting one's self
manbit = the T/P of a plant's growth
mankhir = the T/P of the breath passing through the nose (commonly, the nostrils)
mansik = the T/P of sacrifice

Sure, when they are associated with a timing device such as ?sun? they can imply time. However, this is because of the sun being a timing device. It is like saying ?rise? and ?sun-rise?. The word ?rise? doesn?t imply time but ?sun-rise? implies time because of the sun.

So in conclusion, the word ?masjid? doesn?t imply time at all but like other words of this form imply a whole system/institution.

Peace,

Ayman

herbman

Salam and Peace to all readers,

Ayman,

I asked the question once to a relative (whom maybe asked a scholar) and his answer is quiet interesting

The question was

why in The Great Reading we find The lord of the east and the west, then The Lord of the 2 easts and the 2 wests, then another verse with The Lord of the easts (plural) and wests (plural)!

for example in
2115

To Allah belongs the East and the West; whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's countenance. For Allah is All-Embarcing All-Knowing.

5517

(He is) Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests

7040

Now I do call to witness the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We can certainly....

The answer was
in singular it just mean east and west
in dual, the correct meaning is the 2 objects in the east and the 2 objects in the west e.g. the sun and the moon
in plural, I guess it was the objects in plural! (don't really remember)

Peace

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

Thanks for the reply.

The following is a quote from the article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

majzir = the T/P of slaughtering
masjid = the T/P of prostration
masqi6 = the T/P of falling
maskin = the T/P of habitation
mashriq = the T/P of the sun rise
ma6li3 (&#1593 = the T/P of ascent
maghrib = the T/P of the sun set
mafriq = the T/P of division
marfiq = the T/P of resting one's self
manbit = the T/P of a plant's growth
mankhir = the T/P of the breath passing through the nose (commonly, the nostrils)
mansik = the T/P of sacrifice

All the above 12 take a dhamma on the present tense verb, but, in violation of the rules, they take a kasra for the noun of T&P instead of a fatha.

However, the regular forms are also said to occur, that is, majzar, masjad, masqa6, maskan, etc.

Other examples of word form "maf3il" in AQ include "majalis", "mantiq", "mawazin", "mawatin", "mawadi3".

You said
"At this stage, I would venture to say that NONE of the examples that you gave here inherently imply time by themselves"
and
"So in conclusion, the word ?masjid? doesn?t imply time at all but like other words of this form imply a whole system/institution."

Firstly, as stated by yourself, the form "ma3fil" (same as masjid) can theoretically indicate time.

Further, on this forum, you said
"Those nouns that take the "kasrah" on the second letter are the exception and not the general rule. Why include "masjid" in those exceptions? Also, if you look more closely you will see that those exceptions matli`, maghrib, and mashriq are not strictly names of location but are also used to denote the time of an event so this would explain the exception."

Now it seems you have changed your mind, which is fine. But what I want to point out is you did not change your mind because you discovered an irrefutable piece of evidence etc, it seems more of a preference on your part. That is why you likely used words such as "At this stage, I would venture to say...".

...winter sunrise and summer sunrise. So this could be related to the entire system that results in the seasons and the way the earth orbits the sun.

As we can see, you are referring to different times of sunrise, which theoretically fits the indication of time for this form. You simply have a preference for it denoting system here, which is fine.

Secondly, if we look to The Quran for examples of this form, we see that the indication of time can fit perfectly in the occurrences of "ma6li3", "mansik", "majalis" and "mawatin". Now, I am not saying I have shown they can only indicate time in these occurrences, but I am saying that they theoretically could. If you have evidence showing that they cannot, please bring it forth.

So, what I am highlighting with this post is that you think it better denotes "system/institution", based on a preference, NOT on solid evidence.
Thus, rather than discussing preferences, I'd much prefer to discuss more solid evidence, then weigh it up.

That is why I asked you to answer the issues I brought up in the article about your "institution" understanding. Thus far, you have avoided answering them, multiple times.

In case you have forgotten, see my Qs here

peace brother Ayman,

Thanks for the feedback. And also thanks for your help when it was called upon during the writing of this article. As always, I appreciate it.

It's nice to actually discuss the contents of the article in the thread I created for it, so let's begin...

Firstly, you only cover some of the points I raise, but having said that the points I raise about understandings other than "time" (e.g. institution&quot are scattered throughout the article, so its not ideal but I will try and list them here so its easier for yourself to review

The point you make about 2225 is NOT actually the problem I highlight. Quote from article
"In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation."
If my memory serves me correctly, the only explanation for this was by bro Tanveer (whom I think you agreed with) and that was "baadi" means "one who left to find clarity". I was not convinced at the time by this, and nor am I today. It fits rather poorly once cross-referenced.
If you have an explanation for the quote from the article, please let us know.
You said
"So as you can see, 2142-150, 2225 and 6151-153 can best be understood and can only be tied together by the inviolable insitution of obedience."
You try to link AMAH with the straight path and cite 6151-153, and imply AMAH is equivalent to that or built upon those principles. Firstly this equating-link is ok at best and tenuous at worst. Secondly, your use of strong terms such as "...can only be tied together..." is unwarranted. Such tying together is not even necessary in the first place. AMAH and the straight path are mentioned separately in 2225 and 2217. Sure they may be related but certainly not equivalent.

There are more troublesome elements for your understanding, e.g. you do not explain the "change in qiblah", i.e. if the believers changed to this straight path you refer to, it implies they were not on this straight path prior to 2142-150. Please explain.

It does not seem to fit the explanations given in 2142-150 which are "...so that not will be for the people against you debate, except those who wronged among them. So do not fear them, but fear Me and that I may complete My favour upon you and so that you may be guided." and "Wherever that you will be, God will bring you (all) together. God is on every thing Able/Powerful."

You said
" This helps explain passages such as 919 and 928 where those who violated the first commandment shouldn't be the ones in authority telling people what is inviolable. "

Are you implying it is people who decide what is and is not inviolable, rather than God/Quran?

Further, it does not explain 919 or 928. Quote from article
" 919 also seems to imply there is a tangible difference between "watering of those undertaking HaJJ and development of AMAH" and "one who believed in God and the Last Day and strived in the cause of God". This might present some issues with any understandings that try to equate AMAH with God's system in full, as striving in the cause of God would surely involve trying to develop AMAH, thus making them overlap/similar, IF it meant something like that."

Please explain.

Quote from article
"This clearly implies the polytheists participated in AMAH previously, and "if you fear poverty" shows there is a potential monetary impact to this decision. These two issues require explanation for whatever meaning of AMAH is chosen."

Please explain.

You said
"As for 2196, it talks about those whose family are already present in the inviolable institution of obedience, i.e. are already implementing it. "

There is no "fee/in" in 2196 prior to AMAH. But even if we let that slide, the above does not make sense within the context of 2196. The context is clearly about those travelling to the designated location and what to do in various circumstances etc not whether they are in a government institution or not. How does one formally enter into such institution and thus be excluded from the requirements mentioned? Also, what is the reasoning behind such a setup?

what do you translate and understand "masjid" as?
Please explain, and ideally provide a translation of 171-7 according to your understanding. Further, please explain the vision in 1760, and 4827 with respect to your understanding.
The problems with holding the view that AMAH is all the time, not at a specific time is that all the verses with AMAH seem to have specific contexts, in 2196 are you implying they do this all the time, what makes the usage inviolable sometimes and sometimes not, why is AMAH always singular, and masjid singular as well as plural, why only the latter chapters, it would imply in 928 that the polytheists are somehow incapable and not allowed to change their belief system (i.e. believe in and accept the straight path) after this year of theirs, which makes little sense etc.

Not at all. The person being taken from A to B is the messenger of Quran, and since a human being's lifespan is finite, they will die at some point, thus "the farthest/remotest time of SJD" will likely be the last inviolable time-period they will experience before death. Interestingly, this is a good match with the traditions which say the prophet died shortly thereafter.

I strongly recommend re-reading the article, and insert your understanding into each verse to see if it works, bearing in mind what I have said above.

The understanding of AMAH as "the inviolable time of SJD" may be a novel one, but one that is, by far, the most coherent, logical and practical understanding in my view. Since it is novel, it will take some time to digest, which is understandable.

Personally, I tried to make yours and other understandings work, but I couldn't. They simply do not fit.

aabdul

peace all,

After a long delay, I have finally completed the 3rd part in my study of sujud series

What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?

Click www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

It is quite long and technical at times, but IF my findings are correct, then this would be a huge breakthrough in understanding of Quran. Take your time reading it.

As always, feedback welcome, especially corrections.

Dear brother, Assalamu alaikum,

It seems you have made extensive study on this topic. I would like to introduce to you in brief what Allama Prawez wrote about the night Journey (his explanation of the root word SJD is omitted) in his famous work Lughat-ul-Quran (what is provided below is a rough translation only);

Just as Sajdah means not only to put your forehead on the ground but also to obey those godly laws, so Masjid is not just the place or building where Allah?s worship is done. It means the center which is the symbol for establishing Allah?s laws on earth. The Kaaba has been called masjidil haram in 2827. This is not because people perform sajda there, but because it is the center for Allah?s obedience. It is the center for the Muslim nation because of being muslimata alak (212. That is the nation which bows before (or obeys) Allah. Since after Messenger?s migration to Medina from Mecca, Medina was to become the center of Allah?s system, therefore (regarding the night of migration) Medina has been called masjid al aqsa in the Quran which means the mosque of afar. It is mentioned in the verse the purpose was ?to show him Our signs?. Moosa has been mentioned in Surah Taha where he has been ordered to go towards the Pharaoh, there too it is said ?to show you big signs <min ayaathinal kubra (2022). This sign was Moosa?s success in the struggle against Pharoah. This was also the sign which after the messenger?s migration from Mecca to Medina was to be manifested. It represents the victory of the believers over the forces of falsehood or darkness.

I would like to ask whether you have considered this point of view (madina being masjid al aqsa) in your study? I am curious to know your reason for confirming the traditional view of Jerusalem being masjid al aqsa.

Also I read the following in your study;

It is clear from 171 the reason given for taking His servant from A to B was to be shown some of God's signs/ayat. Hence a possible link to Moses in 172 with "and We gave Moses the decree/writ", however if so, this would make this the odd one out, as when AQ discusses revelation it does not use these terms nor describe anything similar. Unless a link and explanation can be found of course. Thus, if anything, 171 seems to imply some other kind of signs/ayat.

Can you make a comment on the above explanation from Parwez mentioning a possible link for "Signs"? Or do you have any personal comments about any other possible signs?

I also provide below his interpretation of verse 171-2 from his Exposition of the Quran (I hope you may be aware, his translation is not word by word translation);

(The atmosphere in Makkah had become unbearable for the Jama?at-ul-Momineen and there was a little hope that the message of Islam would be accepted by those who had not only rejected it but planned to kill the Rasool.) Limitless glory to Allah who moved his devotee one night from the sacred mosque (of Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Madina - where atmosphere was much more conducive) and its environs We had blessed. The purpose of the migration was that the promises made by Allah with him in Makkah should be fulfilled. Most certainly Allah is all Hearing and All-Seeing (20/23). (Therefore every decision of His is based on Knowledge and Wisdom.)

(2) (Hijra is not a new phenomenon. It was part of the programme of almost all the Rusul. It played an especially prominent part in the case of Moses.) Moses was given the book for the guidance of the Bani-Isr?ael enjoining them not to take for guidance, any one but Allah.

http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_017.htm

Wakas

Salaam aabdul,

I find Parwez's explanation of "the night journey" to be perhaps slightly more plausible than the traditional story. "aqsa" means "farthest", i.e. the superlative, not "afar", which does not seem to fit medina very well.

It is interesting that Parwez makes a link between 171-2, 1760 and 4827 to the believers overcoming the opposition, albeit via a tenuous way. I also make this connection but with more evidence.

I am curious to know your reason for confirming the traditional view of Jerusalem being masjid al aqsa.

I did no such thing. I strongly recommend re-reading my article. I discuss the traditional view but that is not where the evidence leads

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

aabdul

Salaam aabdul,

I find Parwez's explanation of "the night journey" to be perhaps slightly more plausible than the traditional story. "aqsa" means "farthest", i.e. the superlative, not "afar", which does not seem to fit medina very well.

Wassalam,

The word "afar" is something to do with translation! As you can see from the link of his translation, he has provided "Limitless glory to Allah who moved his devotee one night from the sacred mosque (of Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Madina - where atmosphere was much more conducive) and its environs We had blessed."

It is not clear whether according to you, it does not seem to fit medina, whether due to distance issue. It is a fair amount of distance (over 350km) considering the means of transportation and incidently could be covered in a night time using the resources available at that time.

I did no such thing. I strongly recommend re-reading my article. I discuss the traditional view but that is not where the evidence leads

I am reading your article and I think I have to reread to grasp completely. I notice you have ruled out physical journey since prophet "cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human" (I believe to counter traditional view of physical journey to Jerusalem), however a physical journey is possible to Medina in a night time without any ascension. It seems you are of opinion of a spiritual journey into future in a vision/ dream. I think you seem to take the night journey similar to Joseph's vision in his dream 'eleven stars and the sun and the moon prostrating to him'.

I need your help to write for me the translation of verse 171, not word by word translation but like a commedery, based on your analysis of the terms without using from "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" to "the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement"

Wakas

salaam aabdul,

To me, it seems odd to call medina "the farthest/remotest mosque", and this awkwardness does seem to also show through in Parwez's words, e.g. he switches between "afar" and "farthest" when they are different, and he tries to say rather than a building masjid can also mean a symbol/centre of obeying God's laws. The implication of this understanding of course is that nowhere in the entire world was God's laws being obeyed at this time outside of medina. Maybe.
And his understanding fails to adequately explain 177, i.e. it is unrelated to 171 in his view and requires external verification otherwise no-one would know what it refers to. To me, this is not ideal.

I need your help to write for me the translation of verse 171, not word by word translation but like a commedery, based on your analysis of the terms without using from "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" to "the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement"

I'm afraid I cant without using those terms. This has already been done on the article page

171 Glory be to the One who took with/by His servant (at) night from the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement to the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement which We have blessed around it that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

If we link these "coincidences" together, we have shown that 171 most likely refers to the messenger of Quran, there is an association between 171, 177, 1760 and 4827, and it is likely regarding a vision foretelling a future occurrence which will be blessed around, involving overcoming the opposition, which would serve as a warning/trial for such people, and is fulfilled upon entering AMAH securing, relieving your chiefs, restraining not fearing with a victory near (see 4827 analysis). If so, is there an explanation of AMAH that can provide a fit?
IF we take 'al masjid al haram' as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the 'inviolable months&#039 and 'al masjid al aqsa' as "the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement" (implying a time of SJD/acknowledgement in the future), this would slot in perfectly with all that has been discussed previously. Around this future time is blessed, e.g. the believers have grown in numbers/power/authority, have overcome etc and a foretelling of this would serve as a warning/trial for the opposing people, and is completed upon entering AMAH, with a victory near. Much of AQ may have to be read to appreciate this progression in success for the believers. By "inviolable months" I am referring to "al ashhur al hurum" which are mentioned in 2194, 2217, 52, 597, 95 and refer to a time-period in which al hajj (the symposium/feast) is held, various regulations are in place etc. Please read these occurrences to familiarise yourself with this subject.
Note how ru'ya/vision is a foretelling of a future occurrence/event, and how the above fits with our chosen meaning of maSJD and AMAH. In other words, maSJD, AMAH and 'al masjid al aqsa' must be a reference to a time-period. So we can say the prophet Muhammad experienced the vision and relayed revelation of chapter 17 during AMAH. Note that AMAH (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months) would have been a regular, or semi-regular, occurrence, e.g. every year perhaps. This is also suggested by AQ, e.g. 928, 2827.

However, I can simplify it perhaps, by giving an example

Let us assume the inviolable time of acknowledgement was a regular occurrence, perhaps yearly. Imagine during one of these time-periods, let's say 2nd to 28th of August Year 628 the messenger was given a revelation (e.g. chapter 17 of Quran) accompanied by a vision

171 Glory be to the One who took with/by His servant (at) night from the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement (e.g. 2nd to 28th August 628, i.e. the current time-period the messenger is in) to the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement (e.g. such a period in the future, let's just pick 2nd to 28th August 634 for example) which We have blessed around it that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

The use of "farthest/remotest" indicates the farthest/remotest for him, meaning AFTER being victorious during such a period he would unlikely see another, i.e. he would die before another, i.e. he would not be victorious (i.e. at the pinnacle of power) for 2+ AMAH periods in a row then die after. Interestingly, not only does Quran seem to follow such an outline, but so does tradition - yet another coincidence?