New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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I still do not see any command given first and then withdrawn. It is rather correction of human fault and making things easy for the believers. The creator know the creation and their capabilities so why would He give a command that cannot be fulfilled by the believers?
TRUE
universal God already knows everything ...
command of doing work in night vs command of not doing work in night = change in command..
command of doing work in night ( with as much hours as you can ) without any restriction vs command of doing work in night relaxly, not that you think working hard and forcing urself will make God happy .. so he clarified by what he means at first place... = (take it easy Guys do as much as u can with ease) = not change in command but making them understand what was the command
hence brother mazhar provide another example ... as per quran..
today i read all of this thread,
so far nobody attempted the points what wakas raised (including me) lol when they bring their understanding then we will weigh the evidences on the table.blessing in the name of God..
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Novice, IK; brothers
The command was for doing a work for prescribed measure of time. They could not adhere to the measure of time. Instead some times they shortened the time measure and sometime exceeded the time measure.
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He the Exalted already knew that you will not be able to keep track of measure of time {while deeply concentrating on recitation of Qur?n}. Therefore, the intended point having been proved, Allah the Exalted has turned to you.
The purpose was also achieved - imparting the manner of recitation to the believers. And see the shift in the next command, it is about reading the written text, not reciting by recall memory.
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Masjid, is what we fall for and focus on, and Haram refers to the sacredness of God. People take different signs like the farthest(heaven), the Highest etc. and make them their focus(temple). Quran says Haram(sacredness) is a truth.
Those times people should have built their temples and mosques representing God's attributes and signs and Quran says its not east or west thats important, and it asks believers to turn towards sacredness wherever.
Also Quran says there will be no debate, when we say God is sacred(we keep ourselves in ignorant mode with respect to God) rather than saying HE is the mighty, highest or farthest.
It says from God took prophet from the state of seeing God as sacred(ignorance on God) to the farthest to show his signs. Its a kind of going to enlightenment mode seeing his signs.
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He the Exalted already knew that you will not be able to keep track of measure of time {while deeply concentrating on recitation of Qur?n}. Therefore, the intended point having been proved, Allah the Exalted has turned to you.
peace brother Mazhar,
so is this similar kind of situation like in chapter 2 verse 187.. ?
BLUE its appears to me with the help of brackets one can understand God want to prove that human being cant do this so he gives them a command what they definately cant fullfill so after that God turned it to easy mode what a human can do ? do God need to prove anything (he dnt anything in reality) ? so why doing this ? must b a reason logical one for this ?
its very easy to understand the stamina of human being about continuous work so i just dnt understand it all.
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peace brother Mazhar,
so is this similar kind of situation like in chapter 2 verse 187.. ?
BLUE its appears to me with the help of brackets one can understand God want to prove that human being cant do this so he gives them a command what they definately cant fullfill so after that God turned it to easy mode what a human can do ? do God need to prove anything (he dnt anything in reality) ? so why doing this ? must b a reason logical one for this ?
its very easy to understand the stamina of human being about continuous work so i just dnt understand it all.
It is not about stamina. It is about limitation of human cognate capability. Human cognitive capability is capacity limited. Our conscious brain can process information from the environment to a certain limit. Once one's mind is deeply concentrating and doing one job it may not keep track of passing moments - time units.
Allah the Exalted knows everything yet people are put to trials to expose their real inner worth and potentialities.
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peace imran,
so is this similar kind of situation like in chapter 2 verse 187.. ?
2187 is a better example, but only issue with it is to seal the deal it needs God to amend a prior instruction but AFAIK that prior instruction (i.e. during abstinence periods do not have spousal relations in the night) does not exist.
So again, there is no equivalent example that I can see.
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It is a passive verb. Mentioned activity was already permissible. They were not availing it, instead were considering it as non-permissible.
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peace brothers wakas bhai and mazhar bhai,
thanks for your replies i will take some more time to study all of related concepts.
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5812
A command was given and as always the Merciful gave exemption for those who could not afford to give sadaqa.5813
Here those believers were assured, against their apprehensions that they did not give sadaqa, that Allah has already reverted upon them in 4812 (red part above).Brother Mazhar His words never change. Salaam.
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peace,
Since no-one had a reply to my previous question, let's move onto the next
2149 and 2150 clearly state "wherever thou depart so turn thy wajh/face/consideration towards al masjid al haram". It does not say do this "during salat" even though that is the most common interpretation. The reason why this is inserted in brackets in translations is that the verse would make no sense without this insertion, i.e. it would fail.
Not only the above, no tafsir/exegesis that I have read attempts to explain why it links this statement to "departing" from somewhere. What has that got to do with facing a direction during prayer? Further, obviously, when one departs to go from A to B, they face in whatever direction they are travelling in, not another direction. It would be impractical and effectively impossible to face some other direction.
To those who believe in the common understanding, do you have an explanation for this?
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Peace Wakas.
You mean no one has given you a satisfying example.
Suppose no one can give you another example in Qoran similar to the one you proposed, then what are you deducing?
Maybe the subject could be the only one of its kind in the whole Qoran and there are no other similar cases?Also I would like to know why have chosen "depart" as a translation for "Kharajta"?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
Since no-one had a reply to my previous question, let's move onto the next
2149 and 2150 clearly state "wherever thou depart so turn thy wajh/face/consideration towards al masjid al haram". It does not say do this "during salat" even though that is the most common interpretation. The reason why this is inserted in brackets in translations is that the verse would make no sense without this insertion, i.e. it would fail.
Not only the above, no tafsir/exegesis that I have read attempts to explain why it links this statement to "departing" from somewhere. What has that got to do with facing a direction during prayer? Further, obviously, when one departs to go from A to B, they face in whatever direction they are travelling in, not another direction. It would be impractical and effectively impossible to face some other direction.
To those who believe in the common understanding, do you have an explanation for this?
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There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text.
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peace GL,
You mean no one has given you a satisfying example.
No, I was referring to no response to my previous question, which was
peace all,
Let's now move onto another point. To those who believe in the Traditional version of events (i.e. believers were praying towards Jerusalem, then switched to cuboid called Kabbah).
The Quran clearly states in 2150 that a reason given for the apparent change in qiblah is "so not will be for the people against you debate". In other words, doing this change will result in less/no debate/argument.
Can anyone explain why a united group (i.e. believers/jews/christians/etc all praying together in one direction, then believers disuniting and changing their prayer direction) will result in less debate/argument.
As to my first question, no-one gave specifics, e.g.
x in verse A
is amended to
Y in verse BSure, they made claims this happened but they did not satisfy me. If you have specifics let us know.
Suppose no one can give you another example in Qoran similar to the one you proposed, then what are you deducing?
Maybe the subject could be the only one of its kind in the whole Qoran and there are no other similar cases?Already answered here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg417924#msg417924
Also I would like to know why have chosen "depart" as a translation for "Kharajta"?
Choose whichever meaning you want, e.g. "set out / go out / start forth / come forth / depart etc" then with whatever meaning you choose, you can try answer the question if you want.
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Please translate "wamin haythu kharajta".
There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text.
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Firstly. what type of sentence is it? It is a conditional sentence. Condition followed by apodosis clause.
The verb "depart" has a Source location and Goal location. "Wherever" mentions the Goal, not the Source. Thereby it is not what the Arabic preposition Min says.
Recommencing/Conjunction particle.
Prepositional Phrase It relates to the following verb. The preposition signifies Source location of departure; hence it is connected with verbs which convey the idea of separation, departure, moving out. Its object is Adverb of location, always in construct with a following sentence.Verbal sentence Verb Perfect; second person; singular; masculine; Subject pronoun, referent for the addressee, the elevated Messenger, in nominative state; - Verbal Noun.
This sentence is grammatically in genitive state being construct to preceding Adverb. It stems from Root . It signifies exit, leaving a place, getting out, emerging from. This frame portrays moving of an object away from a Source location. The object may be an entity which moves under its own power. The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself.
Non-core features are the circumstances which describe the state of world at a particular time and space which is independent of the event itself and the participants of action; the explanation or motivation for why the object departs; the Time at which the departure takes place.
This conditional clause coneys this to the addressee
Take note O you the Messenger! from whatever direction you would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque),
Mentioning it as conditional clause with perfect verb the Time of exit is some future moment. This structuring reassures the addressee that this Exit will certainly happen in the future after he having visited its Source location, which is mentioned in the Apodosis clause.
The apodosis clause when the conditional clause would have been accomplished
thereby, at goal location cause your self face to face the dimension of the Sacred Mosque.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
Seems not studied, just skimmed.
"Wherever thou depart". Pl reread "wherever" which is the focus word. Preposition Min signifies Source location not Goal location.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
The apodosis clause mentions it. Adverb and verb both imply moving out of a specific place which is explicit in the same sentence.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
You can consult any grammar book to ascertain use of haiso.
1- With a preposition Min, from where, from the place where, from the direction where.
2- With a following Ma, wherever.
