New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
-
Peace brother Wakas,
I do not see how my understanding of "ummi" helps you to answer what I asked about your own view, but I will answer. I take "ummi" to mean "gentile" but I do not mind "commoner" (as you put it).
Now that is cleared up, please provide a clear and direct answer to what I asked regarding 919 and 928. Thanks.It is not cleared up. It is impossible for the term "ummi" to mean "gentile" since some of the children of Israel are described as "ummi" in 278.
Actually, I have addressed it, but you seem to think there is a contradiction. The problem, one of your own making, is quite simple you attempt to make equivalent AMAH with the straight path then project this into my view when nowhere did I state the straight path is equivalent to AMAH. Neither does Quran for that matter. They are only made equivalent in your own view.
I gave some reasons why AMAH may be related to the straight path, and just like many things are related to the straight path, e.g. giving to charity, freeing a slave, being kind to one's parents, but that does not make them equivalent to it however, i.e. giving to charity = the straight path. Giving to charity is part of the straight path, i.e. they are related. Similarly, undertaking AMAH is part of the straight path, i.e. they are related. They are not equivalent.
If YOUR view is that they are equivalent, that's fine. Please answer the rest of my questions.In my view, the inviolable institution of obedience is the "qibla"/target while the straight path is the path that we are on to reach that target. This is how they are explicitly related.
Everything that you say about the relationships that exist with the straight path e.g. giving to charity, freeing a slave, being kind to one's parents, are not only at a certain time but they are ALL the time. So why are you making AMAH only a temporary event despite it being also clearly related to the straight path in your view? Once you reconcile this then our discussion will become easier.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Mazhar,
Why do you feel sorry? I am the one who should be sorry that I didn't introduce you earlier to the novel idea of not setting up partners with the god.
Peace,
Ayman
I felt sorry not because what you think about that which people do, but understanding of a text which you quoted in Arabic. Even a person acquainted with just abc of Arabic would call that as foolish not novel to inteprest definite noun and Possessive Phrase with personal pronoun as "any location".
-
Peace brother Ayman,
It is not cleared up. It is impossible for the term "ummi" to mean "gentile" since some of the children of Israel are described as "ummi" in 278.
For sake of argument, let's assume I take "ummi" to mean "commoner".
In my view, the inviolable institution of obedience is the "qibla"/target while the straight path is the path that we are on to reach that target. This is how they are explicitly related.
Thanks for clarifying.
So why are you making AMAH only a temporary event despite it being also clearly related to the straight path in your view? Once you reconcile this then our discussion will become easier.
I have already explained that in my last post. I am simply going with what I think fits best in Quran. Further, you yourself acknowledge that some commands/guidance in Quran are for certain times of the year, e.g. al hajj, inviolable months, shahr ramadan etc so I do not see why you are having problems with what I'm proposing. And to be honest, it is irrelevant if you have problems with it, as we are discussing different options, and I have laid out my option, it is time to lay out yours. Once we have the info, we can then weigh each option up.
As I said, if YOUR view is AMAH is something applicable all the time, that's fine, please answer the questions I highlighted to you.
Doing that will actually make our discussion easier.
-
peace brother Pazuzu,
Even though your post was addressed to bro Ayman, I wanted to point out that you are thinking along similar lines to myself. You make the connection between having regulations in effect over an area and therefore the logical necessity to demarcate this area, so it is known to people. In my view this is done by the term "al kaaba". I also agree that the physical place is termed "al bayt al haram". However, I disagree with you on what you take AMAH as. This is based on the evidence in the article I wrote. I strongly recommend you read it, if you have not already, and use it as a checklist for your own understanding and ponder over the issues/questions I bring up for such an understanding, i.e. physical place.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
By far, the most coherent, logical and practical fit is al masjd al haram ~ the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months).
-
Peace sister Sushi,
I look forward to your interpretation. Do not worry about hindering the discussion, unless of course you end up agreeing with brother Wakas .
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
I look forward to reading it. In regards to AMAH, through reading the occurrences in the Quran I still agree to the fact that AMAH is an institution ~ government where we incorporate the God's laws at ALL times but I also see how participating in things like the Festival etc can be related and interlinked. I'm not 100% convinced nor does it sit well with Wakas's interpretation as it being time i.e. A certain event however as I've spoken to Wakas I will be re-reading the fundamental key points in his article within the next few days. My view of AMAH is merely based on my reading of the Quran and how I felt it came across so I need to cross-reference and try to check with the original Arabic to verify my thoughts .
peace
-
Peace brother Pazuzu,
I think the idea here is that some people seem to have a problem accepting that the Masjid Haram and Masjid Aqsa are physical, geographical places.
I am 100% sure that in your research you never encountered the name of any such places called Masjid Haram and Masjid Aqsa (capitalized). The problem is that there were simply no places by those names. Those are not some meaningless proper names but are common descriptions that the god uses with a purpose to convey meaning and not just a meaningless label of a certain geographic place. Since they are common nouns and not proper names, then you should translate them because otherwise your research will be based on a faulty premise.
Personally, I see no problem with the belief that they are. "Al-Bayt" (the Sanctuary) is a physical location (a high altitude valley) where the ancient Arabs made offerings of livestock during a four-month restriction period (Al-Hajj). When Abraham thanked Allah and mentioned that he settled his progeny in an uncultivated valley, it really means a literal and physical place. Likewise, when Allah spoke to Musa and told him to remove his slippers because he was in the Sanctified Valley of Tuwa, it is clearly a physical place, not some kind of abstraction or system.
First and foremost, the ?bayt? (house) and the ?masjid? (institution of obedience) are two different concepts. I agree with you that the ?bayt?/house is a physical place. We are given enough information about the location of the first house to know for sure that it is not Mecca or Jerusalem. I am sure that since you are a reasonable person, then you would agree that the exercise of trying to find the precise geographic location latitude and longitude is futile and useless. So the exact physical location of the first house doesn?t matter and by saying ?first? then by definition there are many subsequent houses. The god tells us the ONLY thing that matters about the location
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place is that do not partner with me a thing, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the maintaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
So the only thing that matters is that in this location no partners are setup with the god. This is it.
Having said that, I have a theory as to what the Masjid Haram and Masjid Aqsa really are, if you care to consider it
The Masjid Haram is a PLACE. (Just as "maghrib" is the place or direction of the sun set, and "mal3ab" is a playing field, and "malha" is an amusement park). It is a geaographical expanse which surrounds and encompasses the Bayt (Sanctuary), where the laws concerning the restriction of hunting game are observed, and where the hustle and bustle of the pilgrims who used to come and make the livestock offerings to feed the poor, pay their alms, trade, and discuss the problems of society. It is the place where the annual Hajj gathering took place in the crowded and conjested Sanctuary (quite a noisy place, as I imagine it to be). During the time of Muhammad, there where instances when the believers were blocked or prevented from reaching this place, and making the offerings.You are using the terms ?al-bayt? and ?al-masjid? interchangeably while the god doesn?t use them haphazardly. Everything that you say applies to the ?bayt?. The inviolable house is the location aspect of the inviolable institution of obedience.
By the way ?mal3ab? is of the form ?MaF3aL? not ?MaF3iL?. Since you speak Arabic then you know very well that words of the form ?maf3il? like ?MaSJiD? can mean other than place/time. Take for example the word ?MaNTiQ? 2716 which means ?communication?, clearly neither place nor time. Brother Wakas should also take note.
2716...we were taught the communication of flying creatures....
The Quran talks about times of war, and regulations for fighting in the Masjid and cleansing the place from idol-worship. How some people can't see this as a phisycal location is truly puzzling.
The god also talks about FIGHTING in the ?deen?/obligation and ENTERING the ?deen?/obligation. Surely, the ?deen? is not a physical place.
Similarly, fighting in the inviolable institution of obedience and entering it is like fighting and entering in any institution of authority like government.
As for cleansing the place from idols, you are referring to ?al-bayt? again and confusing it with ?al-masjid?. On the other hand, we clean the institution from idols by not allowing idol worshippers to be associated closely with the institution (92.
The Masjid al-Aqsa, on the other hand, is a more quiet and solitary place, where Moses heard the divine call at the Valley of Tuwa, and where Muhamad also had a spritual encounter at the Sidr tree. (It is like a place of reflection and meditation). Many times I have pondered about the first passages in Surah 17 and wondered if the subject of the Isra (night journey) was Muhammad or Moses. I have finally accepted that it was indeed Muhammad who made the journey, and ended up in the very same place where Allah spoke to Moses nearly 18 centuries earlier.
Based on the great reading the farthest institute of obedience is the same place described at the beginning of chapter 53. Notice that both 171 and 5318 talk about the signs that the prophet saw and clearly describe the same event. Also, notice the same type of descriptions used ?aqsa?/farthest ?montaha?/final/ultimate. So this farthest institute of obedience is not in this world but is near heaven where obedience to the god is at its maximum.
Consider the following
{So when he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley at the blessed area of the tree "O Moses, it is I, Allah, the Rabb of all peoples."}
The intimate details given there mean that Muhammad knew that place very well. It is the Valley of Tuwa, where Moses removed his slippers as a sign of respect, and heard the divine call. Muhammad made the night journey to that same place, and had his own vision at the site of the Sidr (Lote) tree.
{Did the narrative of Moses come to you? (O Muhammad) * His Rabb called him at the sacred valley of Tuwa * Go to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed}...
{I am your Lord, so take off your slippers; you are in the holy valley Tuwa}...
Going back to Surah 17, it begins in Ayah #1 by praising Allah, who sent Muhammad on a journey from the Masjid Haram (the site of the Sanctuary where the Hajj is conducted every year in a barren valley) to the Masjid Aqsa, which lay at the furthest reaches of the territory, and was a place of green mountains, where the Tur (famous mountain covered by trees and very well-known to Muhammad and his people) overlooked the valley of Tuwa.
The purpose of the trip was to show Muhammad some signs. What signs are they? I believe they are the same signs mentioned in the first passages of Surah 53 (the vision of Jibreel at the Sidr tree). This vision was seen by Muhammad in the SAME place (the valley of Tuwa) where Moses heard the divine call.
This is why Ayah # 2 of Surah 17 immediately talks about Moses receiving the Scripture as a guidance to Bani Israel.I completely agree with you that the place in 171 is the same as the place in chapter 53. However, clearly this place is outside this world since we hear in 5315 that the tree of the ultimate/finale is at the heaven of abode.
By tying all these passages together, we can reach the following conclusion that Masjid Haram is the geographical region where the site of the Hajj was located, whereas the Masjid Aqsa is the site of the Valley of Tuwa, where Moses and Muhammad saw the divine signs.
I hope that you see from above why this is inaccurate based on the fact that ?al-bayt? and ?al-masjid? are two distinct concepts and the analysis I provided above.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
-
Salam,
Lets consider my 2 cents and I am open to correction -)
-
AMAH - Comprise of 2 words, AL-MASJID & AL-HARAM
-
My rendering of AL-MASJID is THE SERVICE CENTER. SJD = SERVICE was what i could comprehend from 1st SJD citation in 234 " " where Allah instruct Malaikat to commit services to adam (mankind). Iblees was declining upfront from committing any services, except disservice.
-
This service center was also frequented and joint managed by Musyrikeen as per 917 " ".
-
Not all MASJID is HARAM. It qualify as HARAM only when it is located within BAYT HARAM geographical boundary. MASJID is child location to BAYT parent location. In my opine, MASJID AQSA is another MASJID located just outside BAYT HARAM boundary.
-
AQSA is a distant attribute but not that far in a geographical sense for example in the usage of 3620 " " or 1922 " "
-
MASJID AQSA was not qualify as HARAM most probably because the MASJID was located in lawless or in wilderness area outside the BAYT (permanent settlement area).
-
MASJID is public service center in comparison to MIHRAB which is private. You are suggested to be, "well dress" , every time you are at MASJID or Undertake necessary self defense if being attack. You cannot do sex in public service center " "
-
BAYT or BEIT (Ba-Ya-Ta variant) is a settlement or hometown. Please search "BEIT YEMEN" or "BEIT ISRAEL" in wikipedia and you can see the usage of BEIT to denotes settlement in South arabian linguistic & socio cultural usage of the word.
-
BAYT (waizjalna bayt) is permanent (masabah) settlement/hometown (bayt) for mankind (linnas), a secure place (amna)....
Best & Peace.
-
-
Quote
By far, the most coherent, logical and practical fit is al masjd al haram ~ the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgementPlease translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.
Salam Wakas,
This small post perhaps missed attention because of surrounding lengthy posts.
-
Salaam,
I guess bro Wakas concern are
- Does terminology "al-masjid al-haram" (AMAH) is TIME applicable usage eg. during Hajj period ? (due to Hajj element in 919)
or
- Does terminology "masajid Allah" is TIME applicable eg. outside hajj period ? (No mention of Hajj in 917 and 91
indeed, there was abrupt change from "MASJIDs only" (general-plural) in 917 & 18 to "al-masjid al-haram" (specific-singular) in 919 when "HAJJ" were introduced in 919
My analysis
-
There are many instances of AMAH was related to Shahral Haram, Hajj & Livestock but not all AMAH was related to Shahral Haram, Hajj & Livestock as i could evaluate from 2144, 2149, 2150, 171)
-
AMAH exist as long as ABAH (al-bayt al-haram) exist. ABAH is the specific settlement/hometown being referred in 52 of which their citizens were able to enforce hunting restriction law. AMAH is subset of ABAH, the way i see it.
-
The believers in 52 above, were the citizen of ABAH (the settlement area) because they are the ones who were instructed to observed the hunting restriction law and be ready with livestock supply (hajj) for the consumption by the toifin and the qoimin.
-
During the Hajj months the toifin (non citizens of bayt/non locals) and the qoimin (citizens of bayt/locals) will congregate in ABAH to witness the benefit/bounty of livestock which was broughtdown to mankind, remember Allah names (zikrullah ayyamin ma'dudah), do business, learn the restriction law, provide water services (siqayah) to visitors, food planning etc.
-
The instruction to the believers, as well to ta-ifin & qa-imin, not to do rafas (any sexual provocations), fusuq (any evil provocations) and jidal (any debate provocations) was because there were congregations of people. These 3 things normally happen when they were many people of different gender, intentions and thinking level, flocking together in one place.
-
The OBSTRUCTION ( ِ imposed to the believers in 52 and 4825 was over access to AMAH (the service center), not ABAH (the settlement).
Best regards.
-
Salaam Mazhar,
No, I did not miss that post. I will need a verse reference to translate.
And secondly, your previous posts were concerned with what I did not say/write thus I never responded. In case, you are wondering.
Thanks, it is 2225
Others I did not notice. Kindly give reference, so that I might check why I wrote what you did not say. Shall be obliged.
-
Mazhar, why are you asking me to translate 2225 when I have already done so in my article?
See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.
This verse causes some problems for the 'institution/act/place of SJD' understandings. For example, the Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not open to mankind (only those classed as "Muslim" and as far as I am aware no-one resides in the Mosque. If it is argued they did reside there in the past but not now, then there is no warrant for this in AQ. Not surprisingly, some commentators regard AMAH as referring to the sanctuary and/or Mecca as a whole. In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation.
-
2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.
This verse causes some problems for the 'institution/act/place of SJD' understandings. For example, the Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not open to mankind (only those classed as "Muslim" and as far as I am aware no-one resides in the Mosque. If it is argued they did reside there in the past but not now, then there is no warrant for this in AQ. Not surprisingly, some commentators regard AMAH as referring to the sanctuary and/or Mecca as a whole. In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation.
Dear bro Wakas,
Imho, there is no issue about AMAH as the location or in my rendering "the restricted service center" (or they might be other better phrase to describe) because
-
"those who concealed and obstruct " is really happening now in terms of promoting wrong location of mekkah/masjid/kaabah, as well promoting wrong understanding about Hajj and its associated rituals, which go against the path of Allah.
-
AMAH can smoothly meant as public service center to mankind at that particular ABAH (Al-bayt Al-Haram) because people of different faith, inside/outside ABAH should be able to came there and get their livestock supply distribution (which is available in abundant) during HAJJ (Overcoming) period. HAJJ among others mean "overcoming the restricted wild life hunting period with alternative food supply which is livestock".
-
It was made known to people inside/outside/surrounding ABAH about prophet Ibrahim campaign, not to hunt wild life for few months in a year. They came to AMAH to participate by contributing for some as well consuming for some. From therewith the words of Allah and the believe in god spread to the entire region.
-
Off course if they came from far (baadi/traveller), they need to stay for few days, erect their tents and stay surrounding the service center (masjid). Prophet Ibrahim saw, is welcoming people from all kind of beliefs to the service center because he was entrusted with the task to preach God laws. Words of Allah spread from this center.
-
"Akif" imho here is the one who stay close and inside the service center eg. especially to the poor traveler, as well the administration team, that need to work hard to manage the situation throughout the hajj period. There must be a proper management headed by Prophet Ibrahim saw and its support team. Subsequently during the time of prophet Muhammad, this center was also managed/controlled by polytheist/disbeliever mixed up with wrongdoings as time goes by.
There's nothing holy about AMAH. This hajj things must be managed from the command center (AMAH). It will not happen smooth without proper management in place.
Peace,
Ashraf -
-
Mazhar, why are you asking me to translate 2225 when I have already done so in my article?
See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
Salam Wakas.
You have reproduced earlier translation, there masjid-al-haram gives the perception only of a location-a place. My request was this
Please translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.
-
salaam Ashraf,
I agree with the gist of what you are saying, however I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the restricted service center". If it is a building, then one should insert this understanding into the masjid article and AMAH article and see what results.
I assume it would result in similar problems, as listed for "the sacred mosque" for example, see below
'The Sacred Mosque' fares most poorly in 171, 2142-150, 2217, 928, and relatively poorly in 2196, 2225, 919. Also, please note that traditional commentators (e.g. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas) frequently switch their understanding of AMAH depending on verse, e.g. it can mean 'the sacred site/area of prostration' in 171, 'kaaba (cuboid)' in 2144/2149/2150, 'the sanctuary / Mecca' in 2196, 2217, 2225, 928. Usually, when one forces an incorrect understanding into AQ it will result in inconsistency/variance/contradiction, see the important test of 482. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
'the restriced/inviolable act of SJD/compliance' and 'the inviolable institution of SJD/obedience' fare most poorly in 171, 2196, and relatively poorly in 2142-150, 2225, 919, 928. Since these two are novel understandings there has been little analytical discussion about them. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it is recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
salaam mazhar,
I assume you say that because of the use of "akif" (devotee/resident) and "baadi" (bedouin/traveller). However, "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is enforced over an area, and in this area, there would be those resident in it and those travelling to it.
See the article for explanation by analogy, e.g."To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "
-
Peace brother Wakas,
"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "
The point is that your translation as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is self-contradictory. What your translation is saying is that it is OK to not obey/acknowledge and instead disobey/reject outside that time. I hope that you can see this major logical problem.
You may try to use the "inviolable full-moons" as an analogy but this is a false analogy since in the case of "the inviolable full-moons" there is no act of obedience/acknowledgement inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.
I hope that we don't go on and on discussing very small details while missing the biggest glaring logical issue.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Please translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.
salaam mazhar,
I assume you say that because of the use of "akif" (devotee/resident) and "baadi" (bedouin/traveller). However, "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is enforced over an area, and in this area, there would be those resident in it and those travelling to it.
See the article for explanation by analogy, e.g."To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "
My request is only to please put, whatever is the philosophy of your concept, in the translation of Ayah to see what it in turn yields.
