Adultery

huruf

No, it does not say to marry the orphan girls, because it does not speak about girls, but about orphans without specifying sex. So we must understand any orphan. The ones that must be married are the nisaa', it doesn't saay, but nisaa, ar grown ups and can be understood that it is the mothers of the orphans, and it does not say to take so many wives but to marry whatever nisaa' seems appropriate, by twos by threes or by fours. From where is it understood that one only man should do that? It is pure imagination.

En traditional jurisprudence, marriage of more than one wife at the same time is forbidden. Why? Poligamy is allowed but it is not allowed that a man should take for than one wife at a time. But that is what this aya is puported to say, to marry all of them at the same time.

As to the equity to all orphans and to marry only one, it still makes a lot of sense if the fact that taking care of the orphans and arranging the marriage of the mothers entails giving them the means to start a married life and to arrange for more than one marriage at a time may be a burden which they cannot afford. Or other reasons. But the question is that there is nothing here, as far as I can see that points to poligamy or lack of it apart from the preconceived expectations of the readers that the aya does enjoin taking simultaneously several wives.

Salaam

huruf

Peace All,

Is there a possibility that we are mistranslating the Arabic word that we have translated as 'marry'?
Could there be a more subtle translation? Could it mean 'care for, look after'. Is the same root used for ''marry' throughout the Koran?

Marry is marry, but of course, what people do within marriage is their business.

As to selling herself, Why? people marry for different reasons, even economical reasons, all the time. It is not demeaning, it is not a tragedy, provided there is thruth in the dealings and those involved are quite satisfied with it. On the other hand, keeping ones children protected by contracting marriage with an able man, is a way to protect them too, if he fulfills his duties. Not selling, but forming an alliance. That is legitimate. It would be illegitimate if one made false statements or offered something which he or she is not going to give. You get help one way, it is only logical that you also give help some other way, according to your means. If sex is not something you want to allow, then say so, and let the other person decide whether he or she is in agreement with that or not. For centuries people have been married for economical interests and the world has continued turning just the same. To us it may sound horrible, but those who lived with it many times managed to be reasonably happy, and even with "love" mrriages there is unhappiness, or hapiness is not guaranteed. As we say in Spanish wedding and shroud from heaven come, meaning no matter what we do, we get what we get and nobody can say what it will be.

Salaam

Liha

Salaam Dawn & Huruf,

I understand what you are saying---but to me the Quranic text always feels elastic enough to cover a wide array of views and interpretations. Which may explain why God in the Quran suggests that we seek the best possible meaning within the verses--this raises the question who decides which is the best meaning? I would say each person is responsible for their own belief and interpretation and will be held to account for that.

We all have different understandings of the verse in question--and each of us finds that a particular meaning resonates more than others and thats fine.

Released and I both share a similar view on polygamy--but how we got to that view and how we interpreted certain things varied but I think its alright to see things differently but at the same time be willing to be open to others ideas as they can ultimately lead to greater understanding.

I hope she will have time to post her perspectives and look forward to continuing the discussion.

I have certainly gained much with all the fresh perspectives some have resonated, others were less convincing but all had merit. Huruf made very valid points about keeping in mind translator biases/errors and the dangers of reading the Quran through the prism of pre-conceptions.

I love that everyone on this post is willing to share their knowledge, views and time on these matters and that the discourse has been enlightening.

So thank you all group

Peace.

Indelwyn

Thank you all, I too have learned a lot and a few new perspectives.

Women should have a say in who joins their family and makes an impact on it forever.

That is the main thing. Each person is different. For one it may not mean immediate divorce, for me it does. How good would I be to my children, resenting and hating their father as well as being depressed. Not to mention I would most likely end up in hell for the bad deeds I would accumulate.

Divorce does not always mean separation from the father for the children. My children live with me one week and then with their dad the next week. They get the time and I don't have to put up with him or even look at him... perfect. We do things for the sake of the children and their benefit. However, each one has been able to move on and have a happy life.

I also tend to agree with the "Do unto others as you would have done to you" Another reason why it helps to marry one who feels the same as you do about this situation. It was my first question when meeting potential spouses. I was still so scared, I had it in my contract.

Those who do it and are happy, God bless you. Those who can't stand it, may God also bless us too...lol

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

As I have pointed out, God tells us in 12,2 I have revealed it in an Arabic Koran, so that you understand. We also know that there are no contradictions or inconsistencies in the Koran. Therefore, it is incumbent on us to find the truth when a conundrum such as this one presents itself. There is no reason to guess because God has, "revealed it in an Arabic Koran so that we understand". We have to study the Koran grammatically and look at the consistency of language throughout. God does not want us to guess. I feel this issue is not one where we are allowed to have our own opinions. There are too many contradictions. It is not like the issue of how long should a woman's skirt be. This issue has far reaching repercussions that impact on many layers of society.

Released

Peace all! D

I apologize for the late reply. Dear daughter is keeping my busy, while we continue to sort out the house (just moved). Yes, Liha, she's my first . She is very hyper and is desperately wanting to take off crawling! Before, I used to liken her efforts to really bad constipation (all of the grunting and snorting), until we realized that she was trying to move..haha. Mashallah..you have a seven year old They are so helpful at that age, no? Do you have more kids? God willing, we're praying for one more (not right now, though.. laugh..and then I want to be done. Generally, a happy kid, but she is very confused by the change in time zones. So, now her sleep patterns are all thrown off! A kid that slept through the night..now..simply does not! Though, we're starting to make some progress. Let's see how it holds up, God willing, she'll get readjusted. I'm not too concerned right now, I am just very afraid adolescence. My mom tells me that's when the drama will start. laugh

Huruf, I definitely agree with you when you talk about the "orphans" and the women (or the mothers) as opposed to the orphan girls. I think the "orphan girls" is interpreted with sectarian bias. From the Arabic grammar and the context of those verses, it's the only interpretation that makes sense to me. Of course, anything that actually benefits women has to be twisted and transformed to something that exclusively serves the "needs" of the sectarian men. I'm glad we're talking about this again and exploring the possibilities. I agree that many have married exclusively for economic reasons. I come from a culture of arranged marriages, and love was/is rarely a part of the equation. Though, even then, most wives would have a fit at the prospect of another woman. The inheritance and wealth being divided among so many can often leave inequities. Now, if Bill Gates were to marry 3 destitute women (with kids) with the permission of his first wife, I would think that would work out? It's something that needs to be worked out between the couple (in my opinion) and I am in favor of government regulation as well, as there is a fear of a welfare society being created from such unions (once the breadwinner defaults for a variety of reasons). It's a very complicated issue. I just dislike how easily Sunnis and Shias enter into polygamy without working out sentiments, math, or finances, though their laws and interpretation allow them to behave in a way that serves their self-indulgent ways. The Spanish phrase you said sounds lovely and often is true. I took some Spanish in college. I didn't know you speak Spanish! Where are you from?

Liha,

Now, I remember. I had the same question. Why would God then say to marry only one, when groups of women are being married off? It didn't make sense to me. In verse 4129 from Ahmed Ali translation (we have this one at home too, my husband really liked it and ordered it)

An-Nisa

Walan tastateeAAoo an taAAdiloo bayna alnnisai walaw harastum fala tameeloo kulla almayli fatatharooha kaalmuAAallaqati wain tuslihoo watattaqoo fainna Allaha kana ghafooran raheeman
The Women

Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally. But do not incline (to one) exclusively and leave (the other) suspended (as it were). Yet if you do the right thing and are just, God is verily forgiving and kind.

Though, I think here God is saying that if you do practice polygamy, then you have to make the effort to be equitable, and then God will be the judge. Though, I think the underlying guidance is to just avoid it as being equitable between them is nearly impossible it seems.

What you said here "Here, I am going to be purely speculative---what if there was a situation caused by the wars and lack of men. As a result some unscrupulous men were usurping the properties of orphaned kids by either marrying the girls or their widowed mothers to assume control of fiances and hence the verse was seeking to limit this kind of greedy and unethical behaviour and hence restricting polygamy in the process.

A two birds with one stone approach. Total conjecture on my part--but is it such a stretch?"

Definitely not a stretch, in my opinion. Definitely a possibility. What you point out is so important because it reveals a very specific context. In today's society, where we have very sophisticated ways of preserving documents and laws that legislate against such things, there is a low probability of this situation arising.

I agree that many of the verses are elastic and can be understood in a variety of ways. Time and context will always play a role, this is why it is a Book for all Time. I try to tell this to my husband too, when he gets frustrated with other people's interpretations; in that we're all going to be held accountable for the effort we undertook to truly understand the text despite our own personal biases and aversions. I think God will also factor in our intentions as well. In this thread, I believe that we all have the best of intentions. However, it's always good to keep an open mind and know that the learning process never ends, as God never ceases to speak through the text.

Peace Dawn,
I have to say that I disagree with you in this matter. I think that we should be able to have our own opinions, regardless. It's a basic freedom. I think the key thing here is to keep in mind that we're looking to promote justice and strengthen families. This issue can have far reaching repercussions, granted that we do not approach it carefully. Governments in Morocco, Algeria and Singapore regulate polygamy to the point that is hardly exists in these countries. However, countries such as Turkey and Tunisia have completely outlawed it, as they feel that it is counterproductive to their goals and areas of deficit. In my opinion, these governments are models in this regard, because they do not allow for abusive practices to take root. We should always be allowed to have our opinions, my opinion.

Thank you for sharing your insight, Indelwyn. Yes, may God just bless us all.. laugh We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and polygamy just isn't my strength. I know that I would turn into a monster..or this.. jedi

I guess in the end, I have to conclude that I am very confused now Though, even in all of my confusion, I am just trying to reinforce the rights and grievances of women. I think I will meditate on these verses further, and maybe I will be able to come to a different conclusion.

dawngorgeous

Peace Released,

Thank you for your response. I understand how you disagree with me. I must say I should state clearly what I am about. I too am looking for fairness, basic freedom etc. However, I am looking for it strictly embedded in the laws of the Koran. Whilst I am interested in opinions, I am mainly concerned about living my life according to the Koran. Some things we as individuals might perceive to be good may well not be, according to the Koran. There are many things I would love to do, but they are against the Koran, so I put them out of my mind.

I quote once again, 12, 2 I have given you an Arabic Koran, so that you may understand. The answers are there, and it takes people to do a serious study of the Koran based on consistency. There is no need for disagreement, the answers are there. What I have found, unfortunately, is that sometimes, when, according to grammar and consistency a certain answer presents itself, then the traditionalists find it difficult to move themselves from the status quo and accept the truth.

The most important thing that is at stake in polygamy is the woman's emotional welfare. If her emotional state is not good, this will impact negatively on the rest of the family/families. I commented to my husband last night that these poor women in polygamous marriages never get to sleep with their husbands every night and must accept that he is being intimate with another woman. How must this feel? Women are equal to men, so why would God expect women to go through this hurt and why would God expect children to share their father and not see him regularly?

I urge every one to remember that God tells us that there are no contradictions in the Koran and if there are, then something is wrong somewhere. I urge everyone to keep searching and not rely on opinion. Rely on facts. God tells us that everything He gives is measured. Let us keep measuring, but remember there is no compulsion.

huruf

Peace all! D

Now, I remember. I had the same question. Why would God then say to marry only one, when groups of women are being married off? It didn't make sense to me. In verse 4129 from Ahmed Ali translation (we have this one at home too, my husband really liked it and ordered it)

An-Nisa

Walan tastateeAAoo an taAAdiloo bayna alnnisai walaw harastum fala tameeloo kulla almayli fatatharooha kaalmuAAallaqati wain tuslihoo watattaqoo fainna Allaha kana ghafooran raheeman
The Women

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in 4.129 that says that it is talking about poligamy. It is talking about differences between the couple and divorce. The aya betfore it is about that, the one after as well, and there is nothing, but nothing in the 129 that speaks of several wives. Translations that say so are putting from from their own. It is nto in the original. The translation of Yusuf Ali, which is the one I usually use, because I have it and though it is not altogether faithful, is more faithful than others. Here is what it says

4.128. If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

4.129. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

4.130. But if they disagree (and must part), Allah will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty for Allah is He that careth for all and is Wise.

The 4.3 to sustain poligamy was wacky and therefore a prop was sought somewhere else, and it was found in 4.129.

But the thing is that 4.129 just as 4.3 does not speak particularly of poligamy. It does not touch the subject. If a suport for poligamy is sought it must be found somewhere else.

Poligamy, either masculine or feminine is not forbidden int he Qur'an, but nowhere it is recommended or in anyway given particular approval. We must take it like that and assume responsibility for what we do and what we legislate that it should be in fulfillment of the Quranic principles. Those principles are clear.

Salaam

Released

Peace Dawn,

I wish we had a "hug" icon. I totally understand where you are coming from. I also had the same discussion with my husband. It's something that used to keep my awake at night. The thought of my husband being with another, and then holding her to the same regard as me! I felt sick. My husband told me I was crazy and that I should stop thinking about things that will never happen. He said, "I would never do that to you, because I love you." Then, I asked him, "What about the women with husbands who simply don't care enough?" "What about your daughter? What if her husband does something like this to her?" This prompted him to look at the verses again, and that's when we came to our current conclusion together. I sleep better now, but the thought still lingers in my mind. I asked God, "Are the feelings of women not important enough?" "We are compelled to suffer just so we may indulge our men?" Then, I feel guilty for questioning God. Maybe I shouldn't have been questioning God, but should have been questioning mankind. Then, this thread came along. I'm glad it did. Praise God.

I still think people should be able to share their opinion and provide their reasoning for it. What I am having difficulty understanding is that; why would God say that marrying off these groups of women may prove inequitable? I would think that the inequity would lie in marrying them in groups, rather than marrying them off in groups. Now, I am thinking in the lines of my own family. My grandmother and her sister were married off (to two men) on the same day and at the same time. This was actually done to cut costs for the parents. My great grandparents had 9 children, and they have quite a few daughters to marry off. So, they decided to marry them off in groups at times. This is why I am having trouble understanding how there could be inequity in this. I need help with this one.

Though, I must say that I agree with you, in that the woman's emotional welfare if very important. I think I would become severely depressed and unhappy. The sectarians would just tell us, "Your iman isn't strong enough", "How can you deny your husband his right?", or "You will be rewarded later if you just accept it now", or "Get over it". What troubles me most is when the women defend these men mindlessly. I don't think anyone can make us a victim if we choose not to be one, but these women are allowing themselves to become victims, when they buy into the bologna of their menfolk.

Peace Huruf,

Thank you for providing me with that perspective. I never saw it that way. I am going to look into it further and reflect on it. I always thought that verse pertained to polygamy.

Released

Peace.

By the way, where are all the men and women on this forum? I am surprised that so few are participating in this thread. I think it's important for women especially to talk about this issue.

mirjamnur

salam Released

here is one ;D i follow the discuss- but
talking is silver and silence is gold!!! confused ;D
peace peace

Released

Peace Mirjanmur )

Yes.. laugh that is often true. We would love to read your input though, ).

Indelwyn

"Your iman isn't strong enough", "How can you deny your husband his right?", or "You will be rewarded later if you just accept it now", or "Get over it".

I have heard this too, before I started following Qur'an only. Then I was told Heaven is for the man. He gets 2 wives from earth and the 70 virgins.. So where is the reward??

I just came to the conclusion, even if I try to study it, I will be confused do to my bias and negative out look. (I will pray so I can look at this open minded) But I hold on to the fact that I may not understand the verses, but I do feel God is loving and merciful not to mention non-gender. I tend to understand Huruf's opinion. It is not just for men. Say there was a shortage of women, but not the men and children. What if the women married more than one man, not for financial reasons but to help nurture the child and take care of the home.

UN REPORT 2011

There are 57 million more men than women globally. In some of the most populous countries, there was a "shortage" of women. This included China, where the ratio is 108 men per 100 women.

(guess that whole hadith about there being 4 women for every man is shot to hell)

I understand your fear released, especially when you have kids. Walaa is Lilyana's step dad and he said he would kill her husband if he did that to her. As well as his sisters husband if he did it. He is egyptian, but no one in his family has had more than one. Personally, let me tell you, it hurts like hell to know your husband is with another, possibly sharing your special moments and other things with someone else. It was the only time I ever thought about suicide, but I had two little ones to provide for so I moved on. (trust me I use to think people who thought of suicide were weak and lacked faith- God woke me up!) And when that person is your one and only, you feel really hurt. You wonder what was so special that made you wait in the first place (besides a strict Roman Catholic family). You feel betrayed, unworthy and confused on what made you not good enough.

So as much as I would like to look into it is a rough one.

I hope the little one gets on schedule for you ) I have 3 kiddos. 11, 8 and 21 months. InshaAllah, maybe in a year or so one more )

Again thanks for all the great posts.

Liha

Salaam All,

Released, I hope you are and your family are settling in nicely into your new home and that the little one's routine adjusts soon---the sleepless nights are tough! Your descriptions of her early attempts to crawl made me laugh but its amazing how someone so little can have so much grit and determination and perseverance to try and keep progressing and learning despite setbacks like bruised bottoms, tumbles and falls!

Yes, I have only one child and always wanted a girl and the Creator was kind enough to bless me with her. Ah, the teen/tween years, indeed, the drama, the crushes, the emotions and angst...should be fun D

Though the thing that scares me most is teen drug use. Just about everything else I can (hopefully) cope with but I saw my younger cousin start taking drugs for 'fun' with friends in his mid teens and things just spiralled right out of control and his life is pretty much in tatters. It breaks my heart as he was the nicest boy bright, articulate and kind and now is almost unrecognisable.

Thank you for your response its given me even more to think about in regards to verse (43), that may or may not be about polygamy, depending on the interpretation of the posters.

On this one some of us are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I personally, still think verse (43) is about polygamy.

My original view was that the Quran had stopped polygamy. However, thinking about all the interpretations and discussions we have had and taking into account the historical realities of the times. I am considering a slightly different take. I think it more likely that the Quran recognises the reality of polygamy but is also discouraging of it.

Historically, polygamy was pretty much a fact of life for certain segments of society. It certainly existed pre-islamically and was the norm for many cultures. I feel that the Quran recognises this fact, but the question is how does the Quran see polygamy?

Verse (431) appears to be within the context of widowed women and dependent children and protecting their financial interests and is taking measures to protect them by limiting the marriages "to just the one".

The next mention is in the verse quoted (4129) "Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally. But do not incline (to one) exclusively and leave (the other) suspended (as it were). Yet if you do the right thing and are just, God is verily forgiving and kind".

Its in relation to marital discord and eventual breakdown culminating in divorce. 'Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally' again to me it seems to be a warning and a suggestion that polygamous marriages result in inequity and unkindness so may lead to unjust behaviour.

The fact that words such as equitable, equity, equally, just, never and iniquitous are used suggests (to me) that the Quran---does not favour it. These are all fairly loaded terms, warnings, and a general reading of the Quran reveals that God does not like the unjust, unkind or those who profiteer from the misfortunes of others.

This again is my opinion but on certain pre-existing situations (e.g slavery,polygamy) the Quran takes an interesting approach. It recognises all these situations exist but does not condone them. The language reveals clues and hints that suggest (to me) a lack of support for both situations. To me the verses imply--if you are going to take this step, know that you will be held to account, in which case think again very carefully and proceed with caution.

Living in the West you cannot have a polygamous marriage, its against the law. That does not stop certain people from their supposed God given right!

Then we end up running counter to the Quranic injunctions of being honest, upright and just, as all sorts of sordid lies and excuses are made to cover up the presence of a second spouse or more--this is not decent behaviour by a long shot. From a practical point of view how can you have a legal will for all these wives and children? What happens if the man is abusive, deserts them or dies? What if one of the wives wants out? What if the first wife never wanted to be in a polygamous relationship? If so can she easily access divorce? Get alimony and access to kids if any?

I personally know two families that went down this route, with utterly disastrous results. The blogosphere is full of horrible experiences that women have undergone--it makes me livid.

This is unjust, its just wrong. In short I am following my conscience and my personal reading that polygamy is recognised but is discouraged in the Quran and really we as muslims need to work towards some sort of legal framework to deal with this issue in a way that to quote the Quran is just, equitable and compassionate.

Look forward to your take on this

Peace.

huruf

Salaam All,

Released, I hope you are and your family are settling in nicely into your new home and that the little one's routine adjusts soon---the sleepless nights are tough! Your descriptions of her early attempts to crawl made me laugh but its amazing how someone so little can have so much grit and determination and perseverance to try and keep progressing and learning despite setbacks like bruised bottoms, tumbles and falls! )

Yes, I have only one child and always wanted a girl and the Creator was kind enough to bless me with her. Ah, the teen/tween years, indeed, the drama, the crushes, the emotions and angst...should be fun

Though the thing that scares me most is teen drug use. Just about everything else I can (hopefully) cope with but I saw my younger cousin start taking drugs for 'fun' with friends in his mid teens and things just spiralled right out of control and his life is pretty much in tatters. It breaks my heart as he was the nicest boy bright, articulate and kind and now is almost unrecognisable. (