17:78 "dulooki alshshamsi ila ghasaqi allayl"
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Peace everyone,
I know this topic has been discussed in a variety of threads and from the majority of posts I see two different interpretations of 1778. Leaving aside what people think salat actually is, I would like to try to understand the time frame mentioned.
I have several 'Arabic dictionaries and Qur'an concordances and I looked up the roots D-L-K and GH-S-Q. Here is what I have found.
D-L-K - to rub; to try, to gain experience; a well travelled camel; to be hard up; (of the sun) to pass the meridian, to set, to rise.
duluk - (of the sun) interpreted as setting, inclining over the meridian, or rising.
(Arabic-English Dictionary of Qur'anic Usage - Elsaid M. Badawi and Muhammad Abdel Haleem)Dalaka - to decline, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun).
Duluk - declining and paling.
(Dictionary of The Holy Qur'an - 'Abdul Mannan Omar)D-L-K
Dalaka - Sinking, going down
(A Concordance of the Qur'an - Hanna E. Kassis)Dalaka
The sun declined from the meridian; it became yellow; it set. The sun is said to be "dalika" when it is declining at noon and setting.
(Dictionary of The Holy Qur'an - Malik Ghulam Farid)These definitions are quite similar and offer two meanings declining of the sun at noon or the setting of the sun. Since 1778 is referring to salat in the singular, as I understand it, is there even a possibility of the phrase referring to either one of these times or does it have to be one or the other?
I am thinking that since there are two possible ways to interpret "duluki shams" the answer, or clarification, might come from "ghasaqi allayl".
I found in the same references stated above that "ghasaq" simply means darkness, although in some cases the authors seems to imply an extreme darkness. As far as I understand "layl" begins at the setting of the sun i.e. night. God talks about merging the day into the night and so there seems to be a period of overlap.
So is the phrase "ghasaqi allayl" referring to the time when the sun sets and darkness begins OR is it referring to a specific time within the night i.e. "nights' darkness" is not when the sun sets, but when there is total darkness?
At this point in time "ghasaqi allayl", to me, seems to refer to a specific time during the night, as it is not dark immediately after sunset, but a little while later. Therefore, I lean more towards the time span in 1778 being a reference to dusk and not from when the sun declines until sunset.
If anyone is interested in discussing this a little further, correcting me, or pointing out anything I may have overlooked or missed, please share your thoughts or findings.
May God guide us and increase our knowledge.
Peace.
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Salaam jtc,
You have already gone for dictionaries, now lets go for patterns set in alQuraan and see if we find some help with my TheCreator's permission.
1778
1778 Establish prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.is a singular form, so whatever the time duration mentioned in 1778, you have to perform your Salaat until the completion of duration mentioned.
Duluk(i) is written same as mentioned in 2071. Please click here to check its translations. You can see the same pattern used except for the "Li" in beginning of word "Duluk", anyways that is not included in root of Duluk. You will find translated as "trunkS" in plural.
If is plural then is also plural. Hence clearly refers to declinationS of sun, i.e., sunset.
You can also refer in 545 and and in 56 to see the pattern same as .
For noon there is already a word used in alQuraan as in 2458 specially between the timings of Salaats. Please click here to see its translations. This also clarifies that Duluk is not referring to noon time.
You can refer "ila" in 56 in washing your hands and also in 2187
Many translators translated this as "darkness of night", where Layl already includes darkness. Please see 3637 to know the definition of word Layl.
3637
3637 And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it day, so they are in darkness.So, saying Layl is enough to understand that it is talking about darkness, until there is light from day, it is not night yet. "Ghasaq" in 1778 refers to the time before darkness. That means, if you see darkness in sky at 700 PM, then Gahsaq is referring to 650-655 PM. This is how I understand it. It tally with 11114 also, alhamdulillah.
11114
11114 And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember.Please click here to see other translations of 11114.
If you take declination of sun at noon for , then the duration of a single Salaat will be from noon until night, which is not possible.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
salaam jtc,
From PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The whole phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" by Lane.
dalaka vb. (1) n.vb. 1778
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 72, 73
Here is a literal rendering of 1778 (see http//corpus.quran.com)
Establish/uphold* the salat/bond* (at) the setting/set / declining/decline / sinking/sink** (of) the sun to the darkness (of) the night; and the quran/reading/recitation (of/at) dawn; indeed the quran/reading/recitation (of/at) the dawn is witnessed.
*singular
**verbal noun, indicating both the noun and verb actionIt seems fairly clear that it is saying uphold/establish X (at) timeA to B, and Y (at) timeC.......
So is the phrase "ghasaqi allayl" referring to the time when the sun sets and darkness begins OR is it referring to a specific time within the night i.e. "nights' darkness" is not when the sun sets, but when there is total darkness?
At this point in time "ghasaqi allayl", to me, seems to refer to a specific time during the night, as it is not dark immediately after sunset, but a little while later. Therefore, I lean more towards the time span in 1778 being a reference to dusk and not from when the sun declines until sunset.
Seems sound.
3637 And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it day, so/then when they are those in darkness.
Therefore, night/layl has some nahar/day in it.
night/layl ---> remove the day/nahar from it ---> then in darkness
Therefore, darkness of night/layl, is after nahar/day is removed from layl. Thus, not immediately after sunset, i.e. evening twilight, but just after evening twilight.
That is my understanding.
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Wow, Wakas...your UNDERSTANDING? Not the 'quranic view' anymore, yeah? You're making progress! Congrats!
Of course, 'quraan al-fajri' is not the same as 'quran 3ALA al-fajri' so despite the endorsement of the furqan/corpus , it cannot be the same thing. That's my understanding anyway )
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Salaam mmkhan and wakas.
I appreciate both of your responses. This verse really hit me recently as I seemed to misunderstand it for years based on different translations that lean in favor of it meaning a period between noon and sunset. I have even read that it could be taken as two periods i.e. noon to sunset and sunset until darkness. I don't think think the phrases in the verses regarding salat are multiple meaning because then there would be some ambiguity, and God's commandments should be straightforward in order to be able to carry them out.
I'm beginning to wonder if "duluk" actually ever had so many meanings as it does today. It seems like there are a number of dictionaries that have meanings that are total opposites e.g. the sun sinking vs. the sun rising. One of the dictionaries said that it got it's meanings from various classical 'Arabic dictionaries, but unfortunately I am not able to read or understand 'Arabic that well so I cannot verify those.
I guess if it actually is possible for "duluki shams" to mean sinking from its highest point and if "ghasaqi layl" can be understood to refer to when there is even the slightest bit of darkness in the sky i.e. at sunset, then the afternoon time period is a plausible interpretation. To me that is a big "if" since the other interpretation seems a lot simpler and straight forward. When I say "night's darkness" in English I definitely do not think of sunset.
If someone has any solid examples from the language of the Qur'an that proves this verse points to an afternoon time period in 1778 I would love to see it. I just want to follow God's words as best I can, and studying the Qur'an and sharing ideas on this forum has helped so much, thank God.
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If someone has any solid examples from the language of the Qur'an that proves this verse points to an afternoon time period in 1778 I would love to see it. I just want to follow God's words as best I can, and studying the Qur'an and sharing ideas on this forum has helped so much, thank God.
Salaam jtc,
The answer is already in my post above, you have not read it carefully
mmkhan
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Peace mmKhan.
I read your post very carefully .
I understood you to be saying that you believe the time period is from when the sun sets until the darkness of night. This is why I am asking for those who have an alternative understanding to provide some Qur'anic examples to support their interpretation. -
If someone has any solid examples from the language of the Qur'an that proves this verse points to an afternoon time period in 1778 I would love to see it. I just want to follow God's words as best I can, and studying the Qur'an and sharing ideas on this forum has helped so much, thank God.
Salaam jtc,
I was pointing at this part of my post.
For noon there is already a word used in alQuraan as in 2458 specially between the timings of Salaats.
and also
If you take declination of sun at noon for , then the duration of a single Salaat will be from noon until night, which is not possible.
May Allah bless you.
mmKhan -
Peace
I have a few questions about all this, I've only discovered this today, and I apologize if I ask anything that has already been answered (I'm sure all my questions have been answered)...
First From the Khalifa translation, he wrote
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
Did Khalifa seriously ADD the word 'noon' to fit his theory of the noon prayer???!
This is the second time I see this today! One trying to support the Asr prayer by quoting a verse which says "when we wake up to pray", which obviously could be any Salah, the person had the nerve to add waking up from an afternoon sleep (there is a specific word for this in Arabic but not found in the Qur'an) to pray Asr! And now I find that Khalifa himself did this as well??
...Second Please correct me here and write it how it really is
Dawn Prayer
Middle Prayer
Night PrayerThis is my (now confused) understanding
Dawn Prayer First light until sunrise
Middle Prayer ??? (This is what I now don't understand)
Night Prayer Sunset until last lightThird We are told to perform the Night Prayer from Sunset until the last light without stopping, and I assume it is the same for the Dawn Prayer, but there is a verse which says something, though I'm sure my memory of it is not accurate, but along the lines of "once they have prostrated, let the next group take their place". My only theory is that this is specifically for war times, or we don't have the right understanding. ?
Thank you for your answers D -
Peace glorytoALLAH,
I'm somewhat in the same boat as you.
I see three salat mentioned Fajr, middle, 'Isha.
Fajr and 'Isha are time periods in themselves, but I can see the two times explained in 11114 and 1778.
The "middle salat" is where I cannot find a time frame for. I used to understand 1778 as describing a time frame from afternoon until the setting of the sun, but "ghasaqi allayl" seems to describe darkness and not sunset. There are many on this forum who suggest that "wusta" in 2238 means "balanced" and not middle, but I'm not sure what is meant by "balanced salat".I think that salat is to be observed within the given time frames and not for the entire duration as that would be close to impossible and God wishes ease for us not difficulty. Observing salat for up to 1 1/2 hours (where I live is quite north in Canada) without interference would be very difficult indeed.
As far as translations go I have been reading Rashad Khalifa's translation exclusively for almost 8 years, but about 6 months ago started seeing huge errors in it due to his biases. He added whole statements, deleted whole statements, and mistranslated words in some of the most bizarre ways. I am currently using a few different translations that take a more literal approach and have found that I have been following a lot of unQur'anic things for quite some time.
Studying the Qur'an takes a lot of self restraint and patience because we are so capable of following our desires and looking for things to confirm our preconceived notions. May God guide us to the truth and allow our hearts to accept it.
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Salaam Wakas,
I have considered your point. I have read so many posts on the forum about there only being two salats, but I have a hard time understanding what "the balanced salat" is supposed to mean. Of the many meanings of the root "WST" I see similarities e.g. impartial, balanced, middle, average. The only different meaning I see that might fit other than middle is "best salat". However, I noticed that "salawat" is plural and "wusta" is in reference to salat in the singular form. This doesn't make sense to me grammatically, but perhaps this is acceptable in 'Arabic.
The different translations of 2238 could be
"Establish the salats (plural), and the balanced salat (singular)"
"Establish the salats (plural), and the best salat (singular)"
"Establish the salats (plural), and the middle salat (singular)"I personally believe that the "wa" in this statement is used to specific or emphasize a specific salat within the "salawat", but the only logical fit I see is "middle" at this point. The "balanced" salat doesn't really have a clear meaning in my mind and the "best" salat is also a little hard to understand as I wouldn't know what the best salat is. If it used the plural i.e. the balanced salats" or "best salats", I could understand that it is referring to a way of observing all the salats, but the singular form leads me to believe it is something different.
Right now "middle" is also tricky for me as I cannot find an exact time period for this "middle salat" other than "in the middle of fajr and 'isha".
I would appreciate any clarifications/corrections.
May God increase my knowledge.
