17:78 "dulooki alshshamsi ila ghasaqi allayl"
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Wow, Wakas...your UNDERSTANDING? Not the 'quranic view' anymore, yeah? You're making progress! Congrats!
Of course, 'quraan al-fajri' is not the same as 'quran 3ALA al-fajri' so despite the endorsement of the furqan/corpus , it cannot be the same thing. That's my understanding anyway )
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Salaam mmkhan and wakas.
I appreciate both of your responses. This verse really hit me recently as I seemed to misunderstand it for years based on different translations that lean in favor of it meaning a period between noon and sunset. I have even read that it could be taken as two periods i.e. noon to sunset and sunset until darkness. I don't think think the phrases in the verses regarding salat are multiple meaning because then there would be some ambiguity, and God's commandments should be straightforward in order to be able to carry them out.
I'm beginning to wonder if "duluk" actually ever had so many meanings as it does today. It seems like there are a number of dictionaries that have meanings that are total opposites e.g. the sun sinking vs. the sun rising. One of the dictionaries said that it got it's meanings from various classical 'Arabic dictionaries, but unfortunately I am not able to read or understand 'Arabic that well so I cannot verify those.
I guess if it actually is possible for "duluki shams" to mean sinking from its highest point and if "ghasaqi layl" can be understood to refer to when there is even the slightest bit of darkness in the sky i.e. at sunset, then the afternoon time period is a plausible interpretation. To me that is a big "if" since the other interpretation seems a lot simpler and straight forward. When I say "night's darkness" in English I definitely do not think of sunset.
If someone has any solid examples from the language of the Qur'an that proves this verse points to an afternoon time period in 1778 I would love to see it. I just want to follow God's words as best I can, and studying the Qur'an and sharing ideas on this forum has helped so much, thank God.
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If someone has any solid examples from the language of the Qur'an that proves this verse points to an afternoon time period in 1778 I would love to see it. I just want to follow God's words as best I can, and studying the Qur'an and sharing ideas on this forum has helped so much, thank God.
Salaam jtc,
The answer is already in my post above, you have not read it carefully
mmkhan
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Peace mmKhan.
I read your post very carefully .
I understood you to be saying that you believe the time period is from when the sun sets until the darkness of night. This is why I am asking for those who have an alternative understanding to provide some Qur'anic examples to support their interpretation. -
If someone has any solid examples from the language of the Qur'an that proves this verse points to an afternoon time period in 1778 I would love to see it. I just want to follow God's words as best I can, and studying the Qur'an and sharing ideas on this forum has helped so much, thank God.
Salaam jtc,
I was pointing at this part of my post.
For noon there is already a word used in alQuraan as in 2458 specially between the timings of Salaats.
and also
If you take declination of sun at noon for , then the duration of a single Salaat will be from noon until night, which is not possible.
May Allah bless you.
mmKhan -
Peace
I have a few questions about all this, I've only discovered this today, and I apologize if I ask anything that has already been answered (I'm sure all my questions have been answered)...
First From the Khalifa translation, he wrote
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
Did Khalifa seriously ADD the word 'noon' to fit his theory of the noon prayer???!
This is the second time I see this today! One trying to support the Asr prayer by quoting a verse which says "when we wake up to pray", which obviously could be any Salah, the person had the nerve to add waking up from an afternoon sleep (there is a specific word for this in Arabic but not found in the Qur'an) to pray Asr! And now I find that Khalifa himself did this as well??
...Second Please correct me here and write it how it really is
Dawn Prayer
Middle Prayer
Night PrayerThis is my (now confused) understanding
Dawn Prayer First light until sunrise
Middle Prayer ??? (This is what I now don't understand)
Night Prayer Sunset until last lightThird We are told to perform the Night Prayer from Sunset until the last light without stopping, and I assume it is the same for the Dawn Prayer, but there is a verse which says something, though I'm sure my memory of it is not accurate, but along the lines of "once they have prostrated, let the next group take their place". My only theory is that this is specifically for war times, or we don't have the right understanding. ?
Thank you for your answers D -
Peace glorytoALLAH,
I'm somewhat in the same boat as you.
I see three salat mentioned Fajr, middle, 'Isha.
Fajr and 'Isha are time periods in themselves, but I can see the two times explained in 11114 and 1778.
The "middle salat" is where I cannot find a time frame for. I used to understand 1778 as describing a time frame from afternoon until the setting of the sun, but "ghasaqi allayl" seems to describe darkness and not sunset. There are many on this forum who suggest that "wusta" in 2238 means "balanced" and not middle, but I'm not sure what is meant by "balanced salat".I think that salat is to be observed within the given time frames and not for the entire duration as that would be close to impossible and God wishes ease for us not difficulty. Observing salat for up to 1 1/2 hours (where I live is quite north in Canada) without interference would be very difficult indeed.
As far as translations go I have been reading Rashad Khalifa's translation exclusively for almost 8 years, but about 6 months ago started seeing huge errors in it due to his biases. He added whole statements, deleted whole statements, and mistranslated words in some of the most bizarre ways. I am currently using a few different translations that take a more literal approach and have found that I have been following a lot of unQur'anic things for quite some time.
Studying the Qur'an takes a lot of self restraint and patience because we are so capable of following our desires and looking for things to confirm our preconceived notions. May God guide us to the truth and allow our hearts to accept it.
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Salaam Wakas,
I have considered your point. I have read so many posts on the forum about there only being two salats, but I have a hard time understanding what "the balanced salat" is supposed to mean. Of the many meanings of the root "WST" I see similarities e.g. impartial, balanced, middle, average. The only different meaning I see that might fit other than middle is "best salat". However, I noticed that "salawat" is plural and "wusta" is in reference to salat in the singular form. This doesn't make sense to me grammatically, but perhaps this is acceptable in 'Arabic.
The different translations of 2238 could be
"Establish the salats (plural), and the balanced salat (singular)"
"Establish the salats (plural), and the best salat (singular)"
"Establish the salats (plural), and the middle salat (singular)"I personally believe that the "wa" in this statement is used to specific or emphasize a specific salat within the "salawat", but the only logical fit I see is "middle" at this point. The "balanced" salat doesn't really have a clear meaning in my mind and the "best" salat is also a little hard to understand as I wouldn't know what the best salat is. If it used the plural i.e. the balanced salats" or "best salats", I could understand that it is referring to a way of observing all the salats, but the singular form leads me to believe it is something different.
Right now "middle" is also tricky for me as I cannot find an exact time period for this "middle salat" other than "in the middle of fajr and 'isha".
I would appreciate any clarifications/corrections.
May God increase my knowledge.
