Polytheism first or monotheism

Jafar

Apparently in old Arabia Allah was the chief God and Uzza and Allat and Manat was considered daughters of him -. Hubal appeared not to often, but he was also there? oh well. hmm

I think you missed the most important point..

The real problem of "Polytheism"/"Pagan Culture" are

All of those fake deities are actually lies and made up stories by the priest, to gain wealth and power through people's ignorance and stupidity.
The priest invented strange rites, dogma/unquestioned conception and instruct people to violate justice, spread vice and promote hatred.

Those two problems can also be performed within "Monotheism" (Believing in merely one god/deity) environment..

Some small examples

The current Islamic suicidal bomb which kill the kuffars is a 'monotheistic' form of human sacrifice...
Killing those who blaspheme a deity (or other religious symbol or dogma) is among surviving habits of hate spreading and stupidity of paganistic culture.. (referring to Abraham's case and also Jesus case)

Salam / Peace

mirjamnur

I think you missed the most important point..

The real problem of "Polytheism"/"Pagan Culture" are

All of those fake deities are actually lies and made up stories by the priest, to gain wealth and power through people's ignorance and stupidity.
The priest invented strange rites, dogma/unquestioned conception and instruct people to violate justice, spread vice and promote hatred.

Those two problems can also be performed within "Monotheism" (Believing in merely one god/deity) environment..

Some small examples

The current Islamic suicidal bomb which kill the kuffars is a 'monotheistic' form of human sacrifice...
Killing those who blaspheme a deity (or other religious symbol or dogma) is among surviving habits of hate spreading and stupidity of paganistic culture.. (referring to Abraham's case and also Jesus case)

Salam / Peace

Salam Jafar and all

You are so right with your words. I have the feeling that I didn't express myself clear - english ... maybe we could continue the discussion in German? and Yes, maybe i miss the main point and not only this nope
the problem is, i feel suddenly unsure of the many coincidences everywhere-what if the Quran was also falsified somewhere and we do not see it? May Allah help me and show me the right way.
Sure we are not concerned trought the history, if we are strong in faith and if we not let us confuse. Just at the moment I have the feeling to be lost.. I are back to times on a new Search - All of these findings here on this forum point to the fact that all religions as we know them today has nothing to do at all with monotheism or with God , but on the contrary with spirits and devil....
So I should make a "Tabula Rasa" and wipe everything I've ever know about Quran and Islam, in order to be able to approach with the right attitude to the book of God.
I feel this fitrah, in which we were born so strong the belief in God-I see his signs everywhere and love Him over all - it seems however as the whole world does not turn to God, but defend just their own doctrines.
It seems to me as if this place here one of the few places where God is recognized as the almighty!
Salams

Bigmo

Salam
please read
http//www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm

Hubul was the Moongood, right? then, who was Allah for the pagans? The overlooking God?
so, the claim from many are right, that a pagan religion became a monotheism as in OT too. is Al-Lah = El? And why Prophet Muhammad didn't forbid pagan rites? Or he forbade it, and it was later incorporated again by the Ahadith? nope
the more I read, the more I come to the conclusion that the Quran should be viewed alone, without Ahadith. However, there are also rituals in OT ... confused
why then God mentioned in the Quran, the rites? confused confused
where is the truth?
What was first? Polytheism or Monotheism?
peace

There is nothing called pagan rituals. All religious rituals are the same. Its who you are preforming those rituals to that determines whether its paganism or not.

You need to first define what paganism and polytheism is to understand paganism and polytheism.

This is a good place to start

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7359195828637989025

Peace

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo

There is nothing called pagan rituals. All religious rituals are the same. Its who you are preforming those rituals to that determines whether its paganism or not.

You need to first define what paganism and polytheism is to understand paganism and polytheism.

This is a good place to start

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7359195828637989025

Peace

It actually seems that I have a blockhead or a wall in front of the head ... brickwall Thanks for the video, maybe you remember that we have discussed about creation myths before and there you have also posted the video - fact, I find it very good and it helped me a lot.
But to conclude that there was no Pagan rituals seems to me incorrect.
These rituals were dedicated to other gods Your argument, as well as that of many others is that the fact that the statues were removed from earth (or from the minds) and then the same rituals (not all of course) has been made now just for the one God and for that,they are legitimized. This is the view of almost all. But is this correct?
These rituals are 1. necessary and 2. allowed? 3. a real part of faith??

Salam

NOMAD

Salaam to all sun

Well Hadith= bible, both can lead to a dark and terrible path if you take it serius as Quran. Quran give inner peace and freedom and the hadith and bible are scary and lord of rings magical stuff..
Quran is explainable per si with help of Creator and some deep research.. or a continuous research... Just a sugestion..dont read to much bible or hadith or you will end up in craziness tempt yes

I think altought that monotheism was first but man use to make Creator a Women. That can be cheked almost truggt all artist objects from primitive time where the Venus with vagine was the most Crafted statue. yes the upgrade of the Venus is the fake MAry of Palestine wich today is even become more important than jesus the palestine(wich we know by now that he is not ISA mentioned in Quran sun of Myryam.) well female deitys where the majority over earth, and if you see today it keeps the same why Vergin mary ascencion day?? why vagina in makka with newbornchild? why hindu deities are wemen also? ..yes in the 3 just for EXemple wemen are considered less than man in real world because came from rib.. and then the same guys worship women deities . then they just make transfer of faith from SUN, to the MOON, then they bealive in trinities, then follow a messenger, and finally every one of us can be a messanger but takes generations to upgrade ALQURAN word into every heart thats like to pass your ADN.. thats the end of story but will take some time..only Allah knows pr

mirjamnur

Salaam to all sun

Well Hadith= bible, both can lead to a dark and terrible path if you take it serius as Quran. Quran give inner peace and freedom and the hadith and bible are scary and lord of rings magical stuff..
Quran is explainable per si with help of Creator and some deep research.. or a continuous research... Just a sugestion..dont read to much bible or hadith or you will end up in craziness tempt yes

I think altought that monotheism was first but man use to make Creator a Women. That can be cheked almost truggt all artist objects from primitive time where the Venus with vagine was the most Crafted statue. yes the upgrade of the Venus is the fake MAry of Palestine wich today is even become more important than jesus the palestine(wich we know by now that he is not ISA mentioned in Quran sun of Myryam.) well female deitys where the majority over earth, and if you see today it keeps the same why Vergin mary ascencion day?? why vagina in makka with newbornchild? why hindu deities are wemen also? ..yes in the 3 just for EXemple wemen are considered less than man in real world because came from rib.. and then the same guys worship women deities . then they just make transfer of faith from SUN, to the MOON, then they bealive in trinities, then follow a messenger, and finally every one of us can be a messanger but takes generations to upgrade ALQURAN word into every heart thats like to pass your ADN.. thats the end of story but will take some time..only Allah knows pr

yes you make good points. but fact , that Allah says, in the Torah is light and guidance. This leads us again and again to the question is this Torah , which we have today is correct?? then we should study it to become the whole picture. but my problem

i dont have the time to study the two
i don't know where to start
when i study the Torah , then i will have less time for the Quran; this i don't like

I think altought that monotheism was first but man use to make Creator a Women.

you see you say i think.. you are not sure also
...why a Women for the Creator?? Because we are important!!! ;D look how the olds loved women ;D ;D before the false teachings that Eva give the apple to Adam...Sorry off topic
Salam

youssef4342

Peace
Well we know from the Quran that most people were polytheists 3042
and most of those who believe in God commit idol worship 12106

NOMAD

Salaam

I apreciate your coments. In this case i will sugest just only 1more offtopic question..sorry for invading the post )
2148
Transliteration
Walaqad atayna moosawaharoona alfurqana wadiyaan wathikranlilmuttaqeen
Sahih International
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a reminder for the righteous.

we got in Quran a Sura called AlFurqan.. can be this be the Torah or part of it?
Sorry for any wrong question..

Salaam may allah increase our knowledge inshAllah pr

Bigmo

Salam Bigmo
It actually seems that I have a blockhead or a wall in front of the head ... brickwall Thanks for the video, maybe you remember that we have discussed about creation myths before and there you have also posted the video - fact, I find it very good and it helped me a lot.
But to conclude that there was no Pagan rituals seems to me incorrect.
These rituals were dedicated to other gods Your argument, as well as that of many others is that the fact that the statues were removed from earth (or from the minds) and then the same rituals (not all of course) has been made now just for the one God and for that,they are legitimized. This is the view of almost all. But is this correct?
These rituals are 1. necessary and 2. allowed? 3. a real part of faith??

Salam

What I am saying is pilgrimage, tawaf, bowing, celebrating certain dates, fasting and giving charity are all rituals pagans do. The difference is these rituals are dedicated to other gods. Paganism is a theology and not a behavior. There is no difference between pagan rituals and monotheist rituals.

My former post was about creation stories yes, but I could also look at pagan rituals and you will see they are no different than monotheist rituals.

As far as whether these rituals are essentials of faith, rituals can be individualistic or collective. Islam evolved to be collective in nature. Rutuals in the end are ameans to an end and not ane end by itself. This is why many dbateshere about salat and zakat and haj seem to go in circles.Because they see rituals as a means to an end and can't find a uniform ritual. This thinking needs to stop or we will go in circles. The Quran talks about rituals as if its something that is natural but not necessarily uniform. All humans had similar rituals but they differred on whom they were dedicated to.

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo

What I am saying is pilgrimage, tawaf, bowing, celebrating certain dates, fasting and giving charity are all rituals pagans do. The difference is these rituals are dedicated to other gods. Paganism is a theology and not a behavior. There is no difference between pagan rituals and monotheist rituals.

My former post was about creation stories yes, but I could also look at pagan rituals and you will see they are no different than monotheist rituals.

As far as whether these rituals are essentials of faith, rituals can be individualistic or collective. Islam evolved to be collective in nature. Rutuals in the end are ameans to an end and not ane end by itself. This is why many dbateshere about salat and zakat and haj seem to go in circles.Because they see rituals as a means to an end and can't find a uniform ritual. This thinking needs to stop or we will go in circles. The Quran talks about rituals as if its something that is natural but not necessarily uniform. All humans had similar rituals but they differred on whom they were dedicated to.

you can give me the Ayas?? i think you speak from Schae'ir Allahs? Schae'ir =rituals?
Thank you very much
Salam

youssef4342

Salaam to all sun
Well Hadith= bible, both can lead to a dark and terrible path if you take it serius as Quran.

Salam peace
I would have to disagree on you on that. If we judge by the Quran as teh truth, I have personally compiled close to 300 instances/details where the Quran could cross reference back to the bible (i.e there is truth in the bible).
I was inspired by some of the New testament teachings of love, mercy, humility.

Please do not compare the bible with the Hadiths. Don't compare the word of God to the word of man.

NOMAD

Slaam to all ) sun thanks yousef for youre answer

but if you can enlight me Please, ) tell me the word bible in Quran and i will give you a chance O0
IS TORAH BIBLE? no...
IS GOSPEL BIBLE? no...
INGEEL mean Gospel? PROVE..
Torah means the OT? Prove

I bealive yes some nice sayings for sure, but hadith also have more than 300 passages of Quran and altought are a mount of crap made by man, bible is a compilation of authors , you no septuagint means? 70... how can 70 guys be inspired at same time to compose a divine sripture? ..And of course just not to mention the carnage and bleeding that comes from bible.. What bible have in +- certain is geography places wich are no doubt located in Yemen. thats the big truth in bible..wich someday will pop up around the world insha Allah

Salaam peace handshake pr

Bigmo

Salam Bigmo

you can give me the Ayas?? i think you speak from Schae'ir Allahs? Schae'ir =rituals?
Thank you very much
Salam

(Haj-34) To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your god is One God submit then your wills to Him (in Islam) and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,-

(Haj-(37) It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah it is your piety that reaches Him He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

(Haj-(67) To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord for thou art assuredly on the Right Way.

3.113 Not all of them are alike of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo

2234
(Haj-34) To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your god is One God submit then your wills to Him (in Islam) and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,- sacrifice is not in the arabic

Walikulli ommatin jaAAalna mansakanliyathkuroo isma Allahi AAala marazaqahum min baheemati al-anAAami fa-ilahukum ilahunwahidun falahu aslimoo wabashshiri almukhbiteena

2237 Lan yanala Allaha luhoomuhawala dimaoha walakin yanaluhualttaqwa minkum kathalika sakhkharahalakum litukabbiroo Allaha AAala ma hadakumwabashshiri almuhsineena
A
2237

This aya says clear, that the slaughter is not a rite- is not a sacrifice- is just an pious act to help the poor people.

(Haj-(67) To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord for thou art assuredly on the Right Way.

2267 Likulli ommatin jaAAalna mansakan humnasikoohu fala yunaziAAunnaka fee al-amri waodAAuila rabbika innaka laAAala hudan mustaqeemin
Ceremonies is not here in arabic

3113 Laysoo sawaan min ahli alkitabiommatun qa-imatun yatloona ayati Allahianaa allayli wahum yasjudoona

nothing from rites here- the aya speaks from devotion and humbleness , to read the Quran and meditate over it.. yes can include a sujud, but not obligatory- says nothing about mansak.

= Nun-Siin-Kaf = to lead a devout life, be pious, be godly, worship/serve God, sacrifice, slaughter an animal by way of sacrifice, act of worship/servitude, performers/observers of such acts, rite of devotion, to wash and purify, to apply oneself.

nasaka vb. (I)
n. vb. 2196, 6162
pcple. act. 2267,

mansak n.m. (pl. manasik) 2128, 2200, 2234, 2267.

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8 n-s-k used transitively.
See an ex. in a verse of EI-Ahsbl, in the S,
4. s.;1 . (TA voce ,'.'1.)
5. decoted himself to religious exercises; applied himself to derotion; (S, ]M yb,
as also V i.L(S , .i) and t;iC (.1 or the last, he became a 'JL. (S.)
LAL The religious rites and ceremonies of the pilginmlage or the places where those
rites and ceremonies are performed.

the word has a general meaning and even it's used only for (the slaughter in) the pilgrimage- not for prayers etc...
Salam and thank you peace

Bigmo