Polytheism first or monotheism

mirjamnur

Salam
please read
http//www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm

Hubul was the Moongood, right? then, who was Allah for the pagans? The overlooking God?
so, the claim from many are right, that a pagan religion became a monotheism as in OT too. is Al-Lah = El? And why Prophet Muhammad didn't forbid pagan rites? Or he forbade it, and it was later incorporated again by the Ahadith? nope
the more I read, the more I come to the conclusion that the Quran should be viewed alone, without Ahadith. However, there are also rituals in OT ... confused
why then God mentioned in the Quran, the rites? confused confused
where is the truth?
What was first? Polytheism or Monotheism?
peace

Jafar

Idols / deities was created by the priestly classes to divide / share power and wealth among them.
Each of the deities has their own specialist / agent or to put it in other words, each priestly group created their own deities. And each deity has their own rites, (minimum amount) of donation, terms & conditions etc.. which of course all are designed and authored by the priest.

That's how religion got created and enhanced up until now...

And why Prophet Muhammad didn't forbid pagan rites?

Muhammad was definitely not a Wahabbis..

Although he might did forbid the rites which is harmful and way out of line.. (e.g. Human Sacrifice, Ritual Gang Rape, Female Virgin Offering (to be 'enjoyed' by the priest) etc..) and leave others which is harmless..

Salam / Peace

mirjamnur

Idols / deities was created by the priestly classes to divide / share power and wealth among them.
Each of the deities has their own specialist / agent or to put it in other words, each priestly group created their own deities. And each deity has their own rites, (minimum amount) of donation, terms & conditions etc.. which of course all are designed and authored by the priest.

That's how religion got created and enhanced up until now...
yes, but what you think, what was first the believe in God alone and then the distortion through the priests etc. or the believe in Spirits, who has power equal as God ?

Muhammad was definitely not a Wahabbis..
yes this is clear... )

Although he might did forbid the rites which is harmful and way out of line.. (e.g. Human Sacrifice, Ritual Gang Rape, Female Virgin Offering (to be 'enjoyed' by the priest) etc..) and leave others which is harmless..
there was human sacrifice, female Virgin Offering , Ritual Gang Rape in ancient Arabia?
The Kaaba ( black cube) as a symbol to go on pilgrimage - to allow the circumcirculation (?) seems to me not as harmless,because the black cube was a well known symbol - but not of monotheism ...
The same with the circumcirculation of the Ka'aba. Whether once or seven times now, it seems to be the same as by many other polytheistic religions.
What I mean those rituals not open clear the door of speculation and slander? I can not imagine that these rituals are to be a part of monotheism.
I have the feeling that the history was very falsified ...

Salam / Peace
you too peace

Azz

I had some material on my old hard-drive regarding Hubal and Allah. From what I remember (which isn't much I'm afraid, sorry) Hubal was a warrior god of Nabatean origin, that was incorporated into the Kaaba/House of Allah later on. I remember reading some scholarly material that compared the general view of Allah in those times similar to how hindus view Brahman (panentheistic, single universal spirit) and the rest of the "pantheon" being subordinate deities (many muslims would view them as either entirely manmade or mischevous jinn I think?) There's hardly anything concrete on Hubal though (the people who claim Allah and Hubal are the same confuse me, surely the Battle of Badr makes no sense if that is true?), even the claim that he was a "moon" god is contested.

The link you posted (I'm still reading it mind you) had a bit on "the importance of the moon in Islam", which was pretty weak in my opinion. The calander followed at the time was already lunar based (the islamic calendar is lunisolar, though there is evidence to suggest that it might've been entirely lunar-based before then) and the crescent moon being used as a symbol was an invention of the ottoman empire.

Do you think it's reasonable to believe that faith generally started as monotheistic, then began turning into polytheism? Most polytheistic systems I'm aware of have some sort of "leader deity" that created everything

Jafar

Idols / deities was created by the priestly classes to divide / share power and wealth among them.
Each of the deities has their own specialist / agent or to put it in other words, each priestly group created their own deities. And each deity has their own rites, (minimum amount) of donation, terms & conditions etc.. which of course all are designed and authored by the priest.

That's how religion got created and enhanced up until now...
yes, but what you think, what was first the believe in God alone and then the distortion through the priests etc. or the believe in Spirits, who has power equal as God ?

Might be irrelevant to decide, but one thing for sure pagan mindset is still alive and well up until now..
Clue "Common rites need to be performed to show that we 'worship' the same deity'.

there was human sacrifice, female Virgin Offering , Ritual Gang Rape in ancient Arabia? o o

Surprised???
I forgot to add

Catching a lone / small band of traveler to be sold as slave...
Tribal war (and the losing tribe shall be murdered as human sacrifice and the women being raped then sold as slave)

The Kaaba ( black cube) as a symbol to go on pilgrimage - to allow the circumcirculation (?) seems to me not as harmless,because the black cube was a well known symbol - but not of monotheism ...
The same with the circumcirculation of the Ka'aba. Whether once or seven times now, it seems to be the same as by many other polytheistic religions.I can not imagine that these rituals are to be a part of monotheism.
I have the feeling that the history was very falsified ...

Monotheism resulted as a reaction due to polytheism..

Monotheism is not a 'be all and end all' state..

Even the devil is a monotheist but that doesn't make him/her/it a good person isn't it?
The Jews are all monotheist, yet Jesus & John cursed some of them (especially the priest) for their hypocrisy...

And what's so harmful on people jogging around a black cube?

Have you noticed many similarities between "Christianisation of Europe" and what Muhammad did?

Example
Pagan Times 25th December, feast to celebrate the rebirth of Sun God
Christian Times 25th December, feast to celebrate the birth of Jesus

Pagan Times Jogging around black cube to commemorate deities..
Christian/Muhammad Times Jogging around black cube to commemorate Allah alone..

Salam / Peace

abdalquran

For me, it's not the right idea to look at 'monotheism' and 'polythiesm' as the absence or presence of statues. I think this history about Muhammad cleansing the Kaabah in Makkah of statues isn't true. When I studied 'shuraka' concept in the Q, it looks to me that the 'shuraka' are partners which WE take to substitute for OUR connection with Allah. So instead of relying on the connection with Allah, we prefer our connection with mullah!

mirjamnur

Salam all

I had some material on my old hard-drive regarding Hubal and Allah. From what I remember (which isn't much I'm afraid, sorry) Hubal was a warrior god of Nabatean origin, that was incorporated into the Kaaba/House of Allah later on. I remember reading some scholarly material that compared the general view of Allah in those times similar to how hindus view Brahman (panentheistic, single universal spirit) and the rest of the "pantheon" being subordinate deities (many muslims would view them as either entirely manmade or mischevous jinn I think?) There's hardly anything concrete on Hubal though (the people who claim Allah and Hubal are the same confuse me, surely the Battle of Badr makes no sense if that is true?), even the claim that he was a "moon" god is contested.

The link you posted (I'm still reading it mind you) had a bit on "the importance of the moon in Islam", which was pretty weak in my opinion. The calander followed at the time was already lunar based (the islamic calendar is lunisolar, though there is evidence to suggest that it might've been entirely lunar-based before then) and the crescent moon being used as a symbol was an invention of the ottoman empire.

Do you think it's reasonable to believe that faith generally started as monotheistic, then began turning into polytheism? Most polytheistic systems I'm aware of have some sort of "leader deity" that created everything

hmm what was surprising me, that in Islam over every mosque there is a crescent.Or Was the crescent used much later as a symbol for Islam?
Apparently in old Arabia Allah was the chief God and Uzza and Allat and Manat was considered daughters of him -. Hubal appeared not to often, but he was also there? oh well. hmm
what confuses me is the fact that hilal can translated apparently in the Arab Qamus as 'the mighty serpent', in addition to his role of moon or crescent ..
hilal-snake? From where come this connection?

or am I now eat up conspiraties? tempt

Do you think it's reasonable to believe that faith generally started as monotheistic, then began turning into polytheism? Most polytheistic systems I'm aware of have some sort of "leader deity" that created everything

these are two complete different faiths- that is the problem. when it was polytheistic first, then the people believe in different equal Gods and it can be that also after the coming from a prophet Allah will rest "only" the most great Allahu akbar- Akbar as all other gods not??
Or this Allahu akbar, what we never found in the Quran is also a later addition??
there was one who ask why in the quran also we can found every where comparison. but if is only one God, then you don't have to compare Him always. Compare with whom??

Might be irrelevant to decide, but one thing for sure pagan mindset is still alive and well up until now..
Clue "Common rites need to be performed to show that we 'worship' the same deity'. but this is sure a false way!! or??? nope

that is exactly what i mean...

Surprised???
I forgot to add

Catching a lone / small band of traveler to be sold as slave...
Tribal war (and the losing tribe shall be murdered as human sacrifice and the women being raped then sold as slave) o o o o

Monotheism resulted as a reaction due to polytheism..as oppostion due to polytheism

Monotheism is not a 'be all and end all' state.. yes, but this is a nightmare voodoo

Even the devil is a monotheist but that doesn't make him/her/it a good person isn't it? you will say, that a good polytheist is better then a bad monotheist??? hypno hypno hypno The devil is not monotheist, because he think HE IST MORE STRONG .if he is a real monotheist he will not be proud
The Jews are all monotheist, yet Jesus & John cursed some of them (especially the priest) for their hypocrisy...Jews aren't all monotheists...o.k some they are hypocrytes. IS AN HYPOCRYTE AN MONOTHEIST?

And what's so harmful on people jogging around a black cube? because it was the symbol for saturn= devil...so they change only the God? first Saturn and then Allah??? -[

Have you noticed many similarities between "Christianisation of Europe" and what Muhammad did?

Example
Pagan Times 25th December, feast to celebrate the rebirth of Sun God
Christian Times 25th December, feast to celebrate the birth of Jesusyes i'm aware of this... and it is the same... and back of his head is shining the sun- so in fact the Sungod with name Jesus... hypno

Pagan Times Jogging around black cube to commemorate deities..
Christian/Muhammad Times Jogging around black cube to commemorate Allah alone..
so, where is the real monotheism????
i think really more and more we must forget all the other sources.. all. But then we know that in the real thora was light and huda... but where is the right Thora?? and the snake eats her tail.. again and again.. brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

Salam / Peace

Peace

For me, it's not the right idea to look at 'monotheism' and 'polythiesm' as the absence or presence of statues. I think this history about Muhammad cleansing the Kaabah in Makkah of statues isn't true. When I studied 'shuraka' concept in the Q, it looks to me that the 'shuraka' are partners which WE take to substitute for OUR connection with Allah. So instead of relying on the connection with Allah, we prefer our connection with mullah!

yes probably we must forget all the history?? because all false?? and everywhere only gods and spirits?? help help help nope &

Salam

abdalquran

yes probably we must forget all the history?? because all false?? and everywhere only gods and spirits?? help help help nope &

How useful is this history? Does it help us dive into the depths of Quran? Not for me. To me, the seerah is nothing more than a religious interpretation of the Prophet. Quran on the other hand is not a religious book.

Jafar

Apparently in old Arabia Allah was the chief God and Uzza and Allat and Manat was considered daughters of him -. Hubal appeared not to often, but he was also there? oh well. hmm

I think you missed the most important point..

The real problem of "Polytheism"/"Pagan Culture" are

All of those fake deities are actually lies and made up stories by the priest, to gain wealth and power through people's ignorance and stupidity.
The priest invented strange rites, dogma/unquestioned conception and instruct people to violate justice, spread vice and promote hatred.

Those two problems can also be performed within "Monotheism" (Believing in merely one god/deity) environment..

Some small examples

The current Islamic suicidal bomb which kill the kuffars is a 'monotheistic' form of human sacrifice...
Killing those who blaspheme a deity (or other religious symbol or dogma) is among surviving habits of hate spreading and stupidity of paganistic culture.. (referring to Abraham's case and also Jesus case)

Salam / Peace

mirjamnur

I think you missed the most important point..

The real problem of "Polytheism"/"Pagan Culture" are

All of those fake deities are actually lies and made up stories by the priest, to gain wealth and power through people's ignorance and stupidity.
The priest invented strange rites, dogma/unquestioned conception and instruct people to violate justice, spread vice and promote hatred.

Those two problems can also be performed within "Monotheism" (Believing in merely one god/deity) environment..

Some small examples

The current Islamic suicidal bomb which kill the kuffars is a 'monotheistic' form of human sacrifice...
Killing those who blaspheme a deity (or other religious symbol or dogma) is among surviving habits of hate spreading and stupidity of paganistic culture.. (referring to Abraham's case and also Jesus case)

Salam / Peace

Salam Jafar and all

You are so right with your words. I have the feeling that I didn't express myself clear - english ... maybe we could continue the discussion in German? and Yes, maybe i miss the main point and not only this nope
the problem is, i feel suddenly unsure of the many coincidences everywhere-what if the Quran was also falsified somewhere and we do not see it? May Allah help me and show me the right way.
Sure we are not concerned trought the history, if we are strong in faith and if we not let us confuse. Just at the moment I have the feeling to be lost.. I are back to times on a new Search - All of these findings here on this forum point to the fact that all religions as we know them today has nothing to do at all with monotheism or with God , but on the contrary with spirits and devil....
So I should make a "Tabula Rasa" and wipe everything I've ever know about Quran and Islam, in order to be able to approach with the right attitude to the book of God.
I feel this fitrah, in which we were born so strong the belief in God-I see his signs everywhere and love Him over all - it seems however as the whole world does not turn to God, but defend just their own doctrines.
It seems to me as if this place here one of the few places where God is recognized as the almighty!
Salams

Bigmo

Salam
please read
http//www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm

Hubul was the Moongood, right? then, who was Allah for the pagans? The overlooking God?
so, the claim from many are right, that a pagan religion became a monotheism as in OT too. is Al-Lah = El? And why Prophet Muhammad didn't forbid pagan rites? Or he forbade it, and it was later incorporated again by the Ahadith? nope
the more I read, the more I come to the conclusion that the Quran should be viewed alone, without Ahadith. However, there are also rituals in OT ... confused
why then God mentioned in the Quran, the rites? confused confused
where is the truth?
What was first? Polytheism or Monotheism?
peace

There is nothing called pagan rituals. All religious rituals are the same. Its who you are preforming those rituals to that determines whether its paganism or not.

You need to first define what paganism and polytheism is to understand paganism and polytheism.

This is a good place to start

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7359195828637989025

Peace

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo

There is nothing called pagan rituals. All religious rituals are the same. Its who you are preforming those rituals to that determines whether its paganism or not.

You need to first define what paganism and polytheism is to understand paganism and polytheism.

This is a good place to start

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7359195828637989025

Peace

It actually seems that I have a blockhead or a wall in front of the head ... brickwall Thanks for the video, maybe you remember that we have discussed about creation myths before and there you have also posted the video - fact, I find it very good and it helped me a lot.
But to conclude that there was no Pagan rituals seems to me incorrect.
These rituals were dedicated to other gods Your argument, as well as that of many others is that the fact that the statues were removed from earth (or from the minds) and then the same rituals (not all of course) has been made now just for the one God and for that,they are legitimized. This is the view of almost all. But is this correct?
These rituals are 1. necessary and 2. allowed? 3. a real part of faith??

Salam

NOMAD

Salaam to all sun

Well Hadith= bible, both can lead to a dark and terrible path if you take it serius as Quran. Quran give inner peace and freedom and the hadith and bible are scary and lord of rings magical stuff..
Quran is explainable per si with help of Creator and some deep research.. or a continuous research... Just a sugestion..dont read to much bible or hadith or you will end up in craziness tempt yes

I think altought that monotheism was first but man use to make Creator a Women. That can be cheked almost truggt all artist objects from primitive time where the Venus with vagine was the most Crafted statue. yes the upgrade of the Venus is the fake MAry of Palestine wich today is even become more important than jesus the palestine(wich we know by now that he is not ISA mentioned in Quran sun of Myryam.) well female deitys where the majority over earth, and if you see today it keeps the same why Vergin mary ascencion day?? why vagina in makka with newbornchild? why hindu deities are wemen also? ..yes in the 3 just for EXemple wemen are considered less than man in real world because came from rib.. and then the same guys worship women deities . then they just make transfer of faith from SUN, to the MOON, then they bealive in trinities, then follow a messenger, and finally every one of us can be a messanger but takes generations to upgrade ALQURAN word into every heart thats like to pass your ADN.. thats the end of story but will take some time..only Allah knows pr

mirjamnur

Salaam to all sun

Well Hadith= bible, both can lead to a dark and terrible path if you take it serius as Quran. Quran give inner peace and freedom and the hadith and bible are scary and lord of rings magical stuff..
Quran is explainable per si with help of Creator and some deep research.. or a continuous research... Just a sugestion..dont read to much bible or hadith or you will end up in craziness tempt yes

I think altought that monotheism was first but man use to make Creator a Women. That can be cheked almost truggt all artist objects from primitive time where the Venus with vagine was the most Crafted statue. yes the upgrade of the Venus is the fake MAry of Palestine wich today is even become more important than jesus the palestine(wich we know by now that he is not ISA mentioned in Quran sun of Myryam.) well female deitys where the majority over earth, and if you see today it keeps the same why Vergin mary ascencion day?? why vagina in makka with newbornchild? why hindu deities are wemen also? ..yes in the 3 just for EXemple wemen are considered less than man in real world because came from rib.. and then the same guys worship women deities . then they just make transfer of faith from SUN, to the MOON, then they bealive in trinities, then follow a messenger, and finally every one of us can be a messanger but takes generations to upgrade ALQURAN word into every heart thats like to pass your ADN.. thats the end of story but will take some time..only Allah knows pr

yes you make good points. but fact , that Allah says, in the Torah is light and guidance. This leads us again and again to the question is this Torah , which we have today is correct?? then we should study it to become the whole picture. but my problem

i dont have the time to study the two
i don't know where to start
when i study the Torah , then i will have less time for the Quran; this i don't like

I think altought that monotheism was first but man use to make Creator a Women.

you see you say i think.. you are not sure also
...why a Women for the Creator?? Because we are important!!! ;D look how the olds loved women ;D ;D before the false teachings that Eva give the apple to Adam...Sorry off topic
Salam

youssef4342

Peace
Well we know from the Quran that most people were polytheists 3042
and most of those who believe in God commit idol worship 12106

NOMAD

Salaam

I apreciate your coments. In this case i will sugest just only 1more offtopic question..sorry for invading the post )
2148
Transliteration
Walaqad atayna moosawaharoona alfurqana wadiyaan wathikranlilmuttaqeen
Sahih International
And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a reminder for the righteous.

we got in Quran a Sura called AlFurqan.. can be this be the Torah or part of it?
Sorry for any wrong question..

Salaam may allah increase our knowledge inshAllah pr

Bigmo

Salam Bigmo
It actually seems that I have a blockhead or a wall in front of the head ... brickwall Thanks for the video, maybe you remember that we have discussed about creation myths before and there you have also posted the video - fact, I find it very good and it helped me a lot.
But to conclude that there was no Pagan rituals seems to me incorrect.
These rituals were dedicated to other gods Your argument, as well as that of many others is that the fact that the statues were removed from earth (or from the minds) and then the same rituals (not all of course) has been made now just for the one God and for that,they are legitimized. This is the view of almost all. But is this correct?
These rituals are 1. necessary and 2. allowed? 3. a real part of faith??

Salam

What I am saying is pilgrimage, tawaf, bowing, celebrating certain dates, fasting and giving charity are all rituals pagans do. The difference is these rituals are dedicated to other gods. Paganism is a theology and not a behavior. There is no difference between pagan rituals and monotheist rituals.

My former post was about creation stories yes, but I could also look at pagan rituals and you will see they are no different than monotheist rituals.

As far as whether these rituals are essentials of faith, rituals can be individualistic or collective. Islam evolved to be collective in nature. Rutuals in the end are ameans to an end and not ane end by itself. This is why many dbateshere about salat and zakat and haj seem to go in circles.Because they see rituals as a means to an end and can't find a uniform ritual. This thinking needs to stop or we will go in circles. The Quran talks about rituals as if its something that is natural but not necessarily uniform. All humans had similar rituals but they differred on whom they were dedicated to.

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo

What I am saying is pilgrimage, tawaf, bowing, celebrating certain dates, fasting and giving charity are all rituals pagans do. The difference is these rituals are dedicated to other gods. Paganism is a theology and not a behavior. There is no difference between pagan rituals and monotheist rituals.

My former post was about creation stories yes, but I could also look at pagan rituals and you will see they are no different than monotheist rituals.

As far as whether these rituals are essentials of faith, rituals can be individualistic or collective. Islam evolved to be collective in nature. Rutuals in the end are ameans to an end and not ane end by itself. This is why many dbateshere about salat and zakat and haj seem to go in circles.Because they see rituals as a means to an end and can't find a uniform ritual. This thinking needs to stop or we will go in circles. The Quran talks about rituals as if its something that is natural but not necessarily uniform. All humans had similar rituals but they differred on whom they were dedicated to.

you can give me the Ayas?? i think you speak from Schae'ir Allahs? Schae'ir =rituals?
Thank you very much
Salam

youssef4342

Salaam to all sun
Well Hadith= bible, both can lead to a dark and terrible path if you take it serius as Quran.

Salam peace
I would have to disagree on you on that. If we judge by the Quran as teh truth, I have personally compiled close to 300 instances/details where the Quran could cross reference back to the bible (i.e there is truth in the bible).
I was inspired by some of the New testament teachings of love, mercy, humility.

Please do not compare the bible with the Hadiths. Don't compare the word of God to the word of man.

NOMAD

Slaam to all ) sun thanks yousef for youre answer

but if you can enlight me Please, ) tell me the word bible in Quran and i will give you a chance O0
IS TORAH BIBLE? no...
IS GOSPEL BIBLE? no...
INGEEL mean Gospel? PROVE..
Torah means the OT? Prove

I bealive yes some nice sayings for sure, but hadith also have more than 300 passages of Quran and altought are a mount of crap made by man, bible is a compilation of authors , you no septuagint means? 70... how can 70 guys be inspired at same time to compose a divine sripture? ..And of course just not to mention the carnage and bleeding that comes from bible.. What bible have in +- certain is geography places wich are no doubt located in Yemen. thats the big truth in bible..wich someday will pop up around the world insha Allah

Salaam peace handshake pr