The Rejection of An Interpretation of Salat Times Based On "Redundancy"
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Shalom @jtc,
I agree with you.
My conclusion is that there are 5 daily prayers in the Qur'an, in the Bible sometimes 3 sometimes even 7!
Here are some of my thoughts on the subject
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603111.0Peace
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Jtc, Excellent question. To justify the salat times or a salat ritual, I see people ripping out verses from here and there and patching them up together to make the number they aim for. To me, this is not the best way to read Quran.
Take the 'middle salat' verse. It's right smack in the middle of a set of social laws. Yet it's read as if it refers to a salat time. It's the same with 17/78 except the context is about the descent of the Quran (17/81-8 and it's also taken as salat times. Only 11/114 seems literally about times for me.
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Salaam Wakas,
Thanks for the links. Yes, I have read them and just reread many of them.
A lot of points are made regarding the specific grammar used in 2238, in particular, the fact that it uses "al salat al wusta" and not "salat al wusta". Although I can see where everyone is coming from in this sense, my 'Arabic knowledge is not that advanced to be certain it refers to salat in general as opposed to singling out a specific salat. When "al" is used ahead of a word I thought is is referring to something definitive as is the case with "Al Rahman". Whatever people think salat is, the fact that in most occurrences it is "al salata" leads me to believe it is something specific. Not sure if that makes sense.
There are so many things about 1778 and 11114 that I have yet to understand. The language/expressions used seem to have more than one possible meaning.
Here are my questions (I'd appreciate any new responses not just a list of links)
- Singular, dual, and plural forms of "salat", "taraf", and "zulfa" are used in ways that appear to defy logic (for an English speaker)
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"salata" (singular) is used to describe 2 salats (or 3 salats depending on one's understanding) in 11114
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The plural of "taraf" is used in 20130 possibly indicating more than 2 "edges" or "extremes" of the day; the dual form is used in 11114
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The plural form of "zulfa" is used to describe 1 or 2 salats (again depending on one's interpretation) in 11114.
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Most people on the forum believe "layl" begins at sunset (I share this understanding based on verses such as 3637). However, most if not all people agree that "zulafan" in 11114 means near/close/adjacent. So "zulafan min al layl" would mean a time period near/close/adjacent to the night, but not actually in the night itself. Does this perhaps point to a time before the sunset? If not, how can we explain the usage of this word to describe a time within "layl"?
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Layth has shared his understanding that the two "tarafs" in 11114 are referring to dawn and noon. If there are indeed 3 or more "tarafs" according to the plural form in 20130, how can we determine which 2 of the 3 or more "tarafs" are being referred to?
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Some people say "zulafan min al layl" refers to the two "tarafs", some say it refers to the second "taraf", while others say it is a completely separate salat because of the word "wa". Are there some clear examples where "wa" is used as an explanation of a previous statement in the Qur'an that people can share?
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"Duluk" has a meaning of sinking/declining which happens both after the zenith of the sun and the setting of the sun. I haven't seen anyone really argue against this understanding. The difference seems to come from "ghasaqi al layl". If we agree that "layl" begins at sunset, and darkness begins to spread (1133) at sunset, could it be possible that this phrase could be understood as the time just after the sun sets? I think of "nights darkness" as being completely dark, but I want to keep my mind open to the possibility of it meaning something else if there is Qur'anic support.
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The original post was about "redundancy". For those that believe only 2 salats are mentioned in the Qur'an how do you explain the logic in explaining salat al 'isha in 1778 and 11114. If 1778 is indeed referring to 'isha and not an afternoon period, I have no problem with that since I cannot object to the word and will of God, but a major issue with those who uphold 2 salat is the concept of God not repeating himself i.e. being "redundant".
Again, I know many of these points have been discussed previously, but I would appreciate any "new" evidence or more concise or simplified responses instead of having to spend hours sifting through hundreds of posts that are several years old.
May God guide us to understand His words clearly.
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w/salaam,
Thanks for reading those links. I think they are some of the better discussions.
Let's take this one step at a time...
A lot of points are made regarding the specific grammar used in 2238, in particular, the fact that it uses "al salat al wusta" and not "salat al wusta". Although I can see where everyone is coming from in this sense, my 'Arabic knowledge is not that advanced to be certain it refers to salat in general as opposed to singling out a specific salat.
So, the first step should be to research this usage in Quran. To me, it is quite simple, e.g.
al masjid al haram = the inviolable X
al masjid al aqsa = the farthest X
al bayt al haram = the inviolable Y
al ashhur al hurum = the inviolable Z
i.e. a description"al X al Y" = al Y describes al X
Thus
al salat al wusta = the balanced/middle/equitable salat2458
salat al fajr = salat (of) the fajr
salat al 3sha = salat (of) the 3sha
i.e. something specific.They are clearly not the same.
Feel free to research it in Quran, books, articles etc etc. Then go with what Quran is pointing to.
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The points that you raised would be spot on, because i would ask them.
May God guide us.Since salat was revealed before the Quran, one could look into the previous scriptures etc.
How many Daily salats are there?
Support #1) Only 2 names + 1 Adjective of Salats are cited In the QuranThey Are Salat Al-Fajr, Salat Al-Esha, Al-Salat Al-Wusta (2458 & 223.
Note The Quran is Complete and NOT missing anything (63. If there is cited only 2 names + 1 adjective of salats, this means that there has to only be 3 Salats.
Support #2a) 3 timings of prayer are cited in the previous scriptures
When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem; and he got down upon his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously." (Daniel 610 RSV)
Note The Aramaic word used for the word prayed is (Tsela or ה . This would make it a direct cognate of the Arabic verb "prayed" (Sala or )
Support #2b) Also, Psalm 5517 gives us three time periods of prayer which are in direct line with the Quranic 3 time period of salat.
Evening and morning and at noon I utter my complaint and moan, and he will hear my voice (Psalm 5517 RSV)Support # 2c) Moreover, the New Testament also cites 3 timings for prayer
3rd hour/Dawn (Acts 21, Mark 135, Luke 442 )
6th hour/Noon+ (Acts 109, Luke 516, Matthew 1423)
9th hour/Evening (Acts 31, Mark 6.46)Note The hour system was based on a 12 hour day/night complex. The first hour/morning began around 6 a.m., and the day ended around 6 p.m.
Support #3) Jews and Shia Muslims still Observe 3 timings of prayer
-Jews today still have 3 daily prayer, the Tfillah Amidah (standing prayer) or Shemonie Asher.
-Shia Muslims accept the tradition that the Prophet Muhammed used to combine hissalat into 3 timings a daily, for the sake of convenience.
-Also, It was also customary in the early Christian church to offer prayer at the third, sixth, and ninth hours (Clem. Alex. as quoted by Doddridge) (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TANyL4A2n0k
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Salaam Youssef.
I hear what you are saying, but I think that if one has the Qur'an they should be able to derive the meaning and application of salat, or anything else for that matter, without having to read the previous books. Also, I have looked at the verses in the previous scripture that you and others have pointed out and although they are interesting I don't know if they can be used as "proof".
I want to be able to answer any question I have with the Qur'an, and I sincerely believe the answers are all within the Qur'an. What I am trying to figure out is what the Qur'an actually says. I can only follow it once I understand it.
Dear Wakas.
Thank you for taking the time to try to explain your understanding. I have been looking into the usages of "salat" and specifically "taraf" and "ghasaq" in the Qur'an. I have also been reading Lane's Lexicon to check the possible meanings of these words.
Right now I see that Lane gave examples of "duluk" to mean either "the time of the setting of the sun or of its declining from the meridian".
Under "ghasaq" Lane has a number of meanings, including "The beginning of the darkness of night or the darkness of the night or the darkness of the beginning of the night or when the "ghasaq" disappears ...or the entering-in of the
beginning of the darkness or the time of the blending of 'Isha" OR "the sun when it sets or the day when it enters upon the night"Based on the two different meanings of these two different words used in 1778 create the following possibilities in my mind
- "The declining of the sun (from the meridian)" until "the day enters upon the night" i.e. from after noon until sunset.
- "The setting of the sun" until "the redness of the horizon after sunset disappears" i.e. 'isha
- Since both "duluki shams" and "ghasaqi al layl" have two possible meanings the phrase could be multiple meaning and be referring to two time periods for salat.
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Yes the Quran explains everything. However, if we cannot even understand something (b/c of multiple meanings), which is to say, is not really exclusive to the Quran (salat was revealed before Quran), then looking out into other scriptures can provide more enlightenment.
God commanded the Children of Israel to observe salat. They should know what salat is no?
They have their Tefillah Amidah (Standing prayer), which is done 3x daily. This by far would be the closest to the Quranic ?Salat?. -
Peace.
I was just doing some further research into "ghasaq" and Lane referenced "'Isha" in one of the meanings. When I lookde up his findings on "'Isha" I found again that the word has a multitude of meanings. I used to think "isha" referred to the late part of the night, but when I was reading the examples of the way it is used in the Qur'an, it seems to be used for the early evening. However, Lane gives many examples of how "isha" is synonymous with "ghasaq" i.e. when there is no more light in the sky after sunset.
To me this confuses the matter as "ghasaqi al layl" is taken (as I understand) by those who uphold the idea of 2 salats as the end of dusk. Would this not imply that their definition of "isha" should coincide with "ghasaq" and be a time late in the night and not directly after sunset?
If "ghasaq" and "isha" are indeed interchangeable terms, then does that not give us more of a reason to understand "ghasaqi al layl" in 1778 to be referring to sunset?
I'm just "thinking out loud", but I'm trying to put all the pieces of information together in a consistent way, which is hard for me at the moment due to the many different meanings of words.
