24:31 head covering?
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Thanks for the explanation, but no, that does not clarify it.
Firstly, its news to me that the Arabian peninsula had numerous tribes ruled by women, although admittedly I have not studied this area. Care to cite some evidence?
And you said "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further", then later said "The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic." so if you take them as "highly" and claim Quran takes it a step further, then I can only assume you regard Quran as extremely misogynistic?
If so, please cite the top 5 most extremely misogynistic examples/rules you can find in Quran. Thanks. Feel free to start another thread.
Hahaha, it seems I clarified it, but you are not satisfied with what I said.
No, come on, this is getting ridiculous. All I need to do is enter "matriarchy arabia" into Google and get 1000s of hits, all dealing with this. Do I really need to copy/paste them here?
"regard Quran as extremely misogynistic" Yes, indeed. And it surprises me that you even question this. Do I really need to find the Koran passages? Don't you know what status a female has in the Koran when compared to a man? How she is considered when a witness in court? How inheritance is defined? How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse? How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there? Come on, be realistic. Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male? It's right through the book. Look at reality today! And now look at society 1000 years ago. It was that era and it was acceptable then. Do you really want to collect all 50 or 60 sentences here?
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I only want the quality evidence, not some website anyone can write on. Some books would be good.
And if they are your examples of extreme misogyny, then allow me to clarify
How she is considered when a witness in court?
Misrepresentation. I assume you are alluding to the sole case of financial transaction when a witness is chosen. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htmHow inheritance is defined?
IF no will is made (wherein someone can leave 100% to females if they wish), then in some situations the male gets more. The man is also made responsible for things the female is not, making it more balanced. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-less-share-inheritance-males.htmHow she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there?
Conveniently vague. References please.Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.Your usual tactics may work on others, or other forums, but unlikely to work when it comes to Quran alone. ;D
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Comments in green 3
How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.StopS is probably thinking about the numerous hadith that say a woman cannot deny her husband sex (i.e angels cursing her until morning)
Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.I reckon you've given a very good answer to a different question.
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Salam StopS
This is a bit of a weird format, but I shall try and address the points as best I can.
I don't believe there is evidence for the existence of a creator, so I stick to science, as in biology in this case. Here I learnt that mating is the strongest drive in animals. It also dictates what we look like and why there are differences in looks between male and female used in courting if there are 2 genders. Some animal species don't have 2 genders and thus look identical.
we don't speak now about the evolution theorie- but in the Quran we found the term Allah creates (chalak)
Kh-Lam-Qaf = To measure or proportion a thing, to form or make according to proper measure, bring into existence according to a certain measure, originate or produce after a pattern or model which one has devised, bring into existence from a state of non-existence (create out of nothing), to fabricate or forge a speech or saying, to make a thing equitable or even, make a thing smooth, to be probable or likely to happen (or likely to be or happen, or to have happened or been), act towards someone according to that person's nature, wear out a thing and make it old, to be fit/ competent/ suitable/ proper, to be complete or perfect in respect of make or proportion, have an innate/natural disposition/temperament/quality. (from http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmRape outside of primates is very rare. It's biology. There is a hypothesis that considers rape to be a genetically advantageous behavioral adaptation, but I don't buy that.
Looking at civilisation, the sex drive of early humanoids who fought, captured and raped has given way to communication. That is the preferred and accepted norm today.
what is norm today we should accept... Allah make a clear distincstion between animals and Adam/bani adamLike where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?
like in Egypt example. or in Saudi Arabia ;D (in Saudi the men like to rape women even they are covered from head to feet... oSeveral. Do you want one or 15? There are stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
secondary sources from old history of Arabia- i don't believe it at all... -
People's view of the naked body in that era was different than ours. Just look at the Olympic Games at around that time where combatants rocked up naked. Islam did not develop in a void. People had habits and cultural differences. In some clans women were the boss, had legal rights and could own property and had defined inheritance rights all the way to genealogy being traced maternally.
yes o.k but what has this to do with the QuranReally? The Koran slanders Muhammad, it's own messenger? laugh If you don't believe me, look at 3350, 3353, etc...
no not Quran slanders Muhammad, the reader who makes conclusions and interpretation from his own brain...Allah never says Muhammad was jealousI don't know. That's why I said there are several possible explanations why women are never told to cover themselves excepting hands and face in the Koran. Then there's the fact that Muslim women today wear different garments in different regions, demonstrating a human and cultural source for the social expectation.
for this i'm always carefully to make quick conclusions .
Salams peace
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I only want the quality evidence, not some website anyone can write on. Some books would be good.
And if they are your examples of extreme misogyny, then allow me to clarify
How she is considered when a witness in court?
Misrepresentation. I assume you are alluding to the sole case of financial transaction when a witness is chosen. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htmHow inheritance is defined?
IF no will is made (wherein someone can leave 100% to females if they wish), then in some situations the male gets more. The man is also made responsible for things the female is not, making it more balanced. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-less-share-inheritance-males.htmAre you serious? Really? You want "quality evidence" from me - yet when YOU want to bring up something a really funny internet page, a page "anyone can write on" as evidence?
Isn't that what you call having double standards? Please! Stating that the man has wider responsibilities is laughable, stupid and wrong. It's misogynistic too. And what is more the articles you present as evidence throw up red herrings left, right and centre, yet never get away from the claim that a man is superior.
And you are wrong again as there are tribes where the woman gives birth and breast feeds and does the hunting while the males look after the village.
Do you really require books to learn about Makeda, The Queen of Sheba or Cleopatra?
But you want books? Here are booksThe Origins of Islam, D.M. Murdock (...prior to the encroachment of Islam, it was a matriarchal culture for over 1,000 years "The Annals of Ashurbanipal said Arabia was governed by queens for as long as anyone could remember.... "Mohammed's legends clearly gave him a matriarchal family background. His parents' marriage was matrilocal. His mother remained with her own family and received her husband as an occasional visitor....)
The End of Men And the Rise of Women, Hanna Rosin (women rulers made a terrible mess of things or they imposed regimes of such terror (who would like to be ruled by the Amazons, after all?) that there was no choice but to overthrow them. And that, according to the logic of the stories, is why we now have patriarchy.)
A Study of Islamic Herstory Or, How Did We Ever Get into This Mess? Azizah Al-Hibri (before the advent of Islam, the matriarchal societies of Arabia had been destroyed trough a transfer of military technology)
Women and Social Change in the Muslim World, Alya Baffoun (the sexual freedoms women enjoyed during pre-Islamic times were similar to those Mernissi found in Arabia, and that a double standard was absent. With Islam this conditions disappeared and the sexual oppression of women began)
Women in Mystical Islam, Anne Marie Schimmel (contributions women have made to the development of the mystical tradition in Islam, as poets and teachers (many revered male Sufis had been their pupils) who helped shape the learned tradition of mystical, thought and practice)
The Feminine Universe, Alice Lucy Trent (In all myth throughout the world, the original Creator is feminine. It is only with the coming of a masculine-dominated (patriarchal) social system that She is replaced by a male god) Robert Graves (evidence of his hypothesis that a shift in power from a matriarchy controlling society to a patriarchy happen in the ancient past.)
I will stop here as there are simply too many.
How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there?
Conveniently vague. References please.Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.I am asking questions, not quoting scripture. It's not "conveniently vague", but a very specific question. Are you paying attention at all? Are you trying at all?
Does this make any sense? "How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child?" Why is that important in a family? Is that the only criteria? It is also misogynistic as you don't seem to care the least for the feelings of the women. It does not even occur to you. You only worry about how the father can identify his child.Your usual tactics may work on others, or other forums, but unlikely to work when it comes to Quran alone. ;D
My "usual tactics". Again why bother if all you can up with is some ominous allegations. Poor! Oh and now you judge me using something vague on other forums...
What did I say?
On what forum?
Come on, give me quality evidence you crave so much for yourself. -
we don't speak now about the evolution theorie- but in the Quran we found the term Allah creates (chalak)
Yes, but is there evidence for this?
If humans are created, and perfect at that, why would 50% require to be hidden away, when nature dictates the opposite?what is norm today we should accept... Allah make a clear distincstion between animals and Adam/bani adam
And? Rape is going down all the time. 1000 years ago rape was customary during a war. Today it is punished.
Like where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?
like in Egypt example. or in Saudi Arabia ;D (in Saudi the men like to rape women even they are covered from head to feet... oI don't know of any legal nudist beaches in KSA. I am talking about countries where they are normal.
stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
secondary sources from old history of Arabia- i don't believe it at all... -\Then why are we talking at all if you can at any time decide what you declare wrong and what you accept?
yes o.k but what has this to do with the Quran
It shows the cultural background of that era. Things were different. Monotheism was still new to people. Their habits and rituals were very different.
no not Quran slanders Muhammad, the reader who makes conclusions and interpretation from his own brain...Allah never says Muhammad was jealous
You can't interpret anything?
The Koran does not say Muslims pray 5 times at these intervals. It is interpretation.
The Koran does not say women cover yourselves except hands and faces. It is interpretation.
The Koran says men can marry 2 and 3 and 4 women, but this is interpreted as 2 or 3 or 4.
The Koran does not say that apostates or adulterers should per se be stoned, yet some Muslims do so. So you MUST interpret to get what a Muslims considers to be the true meaning.
So do YOU decide when something is taken literal and when something is interpreted? -
Salam StopS
Yes, but is there evidence for this?
If humans are created, and perfect at that, why would 50% require to be hidden away, when nature dictates the opposite?As i understand it to create, as the word Chalak implies, points to a God, a power that brought our world with all its evolutionary laws to be there. The natural choice in the evolution belongs to the law which God has ordained for the universe.
The man rises from these regularities by his intelligence and his understanding. Due to his intelligence, it was possible to him to gain medical, scientific knowledge to can partially circumvent the laws of nature.And? Rape is going down all the time. 1000 years ago rape was customary during a war. Today it is punished.
I don't know of any legal nudist beaches in KSA. I am talking about countries where they are normal.
I do not blame all the people in a pot. If something was also socially acceptable, i.e not mean that it is morally proper.
For example, rape is clearly against all morality and decency. if thousands of people do it well, it makes it acceptable?
I mean, who's determined today, what is normal? the society in which you live? just because society says, rape and Nudist beaches are o.k, then it is morally acceptable and 'normal?Then why are we talking at all if you can at any time decide what you declare wrong and what you accept?
actually we should not talk about it, because it is clearly stated in the Quran. ;D ;D The problem is that not all people believe in the Quran or in God. So we set a different standard, and discuss about this.It shows the cultural background of that era. Things were different. Monotheism was still new to people. Their habits and rituals were very different.
history is always a problem, because we rely on old oral or written traditions which can well be falsifiedYou can't interpret anything?
The Koran does not say Muslims pray 5 times at these intervals. It is interpretation.
yes correct. i'ts only interpretation
The Koran does not say women cover yourselves except hands and faces. It is interpretation.
yes, again only interpretation
The Koran says men can marry 2 and 3 and 4 women, but this is interpreted as 2 or 3 or 4.
yes , only interpretation
The Koran does not say that apostates or adulterers should per se be stoned, yet some Muslims do so. So you MUST interpret to get what a Muslims considers to be the true meaning.
no we don't MUST INTERPRET to become false laws- the Quran say we don't must stone adulteres - on contrary, God says the life is very expensive- from where people take the right to punish people or to finisch a human life???
So do YOU decide when something is taken literal and when something is interpreted?
no clear i don't decide i try to read the Quran and to NOT INTERPRET between the lines- in fact i try to read the Quran and forget all my (false) knowledge about the history or or - i believe , with a clear mind and a clear heart we can see the wisdom in the Quran - and forget all the violent interpretations from sheiks and mullas-i don't know, if i could explain to you what i mean..Salam peace
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Are you serious? Really? You want "quality evidence" from me - yet when YOU want to bring up something a really funny internet page, a page "anyone can write on" as evidence?
Isn't that what you call having double standards? Please! Stating that the man has wider responsibilities is laughable, stupid and wrong. It's misogynistic too. And what is more the articles you present as evidence throw up red herrings left, right and centre, yet never get away from the claim that a man is superior.
The links I posted are primarily built on Quran verses. So if you are claiming Quran is X, posting evidence from Quran seems relevant. Red herrings you say..... specifics please.
And you are wrong again as there are tribes where the woman gives birth and breast feeds and does the hunting while the males look after the village.
I know, but we were discussing Arabia.
Do you really require books to learn about Makeda, The Queen of Sheba or Cleopatra?
But you want books? Here are booksThe Origins of Islam, D.M. Murdock (...prior to the encroachment of Islam, it was a matriarchal culture for over 1,000 years "The Annals of Ashurbanipal said Arabia was governed by queens for as long as anyone could remember.... "Mohammed's legends clearly gave him a matriarchal family background. His parents' marriage was matrilocal. His mother remained with her own family and received her husband as an occasional visitor....)
The End of Men And the Rise of Women, Hanna Rosin (women rulers made a terrible mess of things or they imposed regimes of such terror (who would like to be ruled by the Amazons, after all?) that there was no choice but to overthrow them. And that, according to the logic of the stories, is why we now have patriarchy.)
A Study of Islamic Herstory Or, How Did We Ever Get into This Mess? Azizah Al-Hibri (before the advent of Islam, the matriarchal societies of Arabia had been destroyed trough a transfer of military technology)
Women and Social Change in the Muslim World, Alya Baffoun (the sexual freedoms women enjoyed during pre-Islamic times were similar to those Mernissi found in Arabia, and that a double standard was absent. With Islam this conditions disappeared and the sexual oppression of women began)
Women in Mystical Islam, Anne Marie Schimmel (contributions women have made to the development of the mystical tradition in Islam, as poets and teachers (many revered male Sufis had been their pupils) who helped shape the learned tradition of mystical, thought and practice)
The Feminine Universe, Alice Lucy Trent (In all myth throughout the world, the original Creator is feminine. It is only with the coming of a masculine-dominated (patriarchal) social system that She is replaced by a male god) Robert Graves (evidence of his hypothesis that a shift in power from a matriarchy controlling society to a patriarchy happen in the ancient past.)
I will stop here as there are simply too many.
How many of these are actual books, and not some online article(s)? Are they written with actual evidence backing them up, because all I read above were quotes, e.g. do they reference scripts/inscriptions from Arabia which discuss this etc? I'll make it easy for you, present your 5 strongest evidence for your matriarchal Arabia - obviously, by "strongest" I'd expect them to come with evidence.
By your usual tactics, I am referring to your alleged preference of logic and the scientific method when scrutinising Quran, yet display very little yourself in your own views/statements. Simple.
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Salam StopS
i don't know, if i could explain to you what i mean..Salam peaceI THINK I understand.
You are saying that your standard is determined by what you perceive as the standard for your life, which is the Koran. You try and take the knowledge from the book and apply it to your life. You understand that the Koran does not clearly say very much at all, yet decide that what is important for you you see clearly.
Ok, it's a way of life and if you are happy, then I am happy for you.
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The links I posted are primarily built on Quran verses. So if you are claiming Quran is X, posting evidence from Quran seems relevant. Red herrings you say..... specifics please.
I know, but we were discussing Arabia.
How many of these are actual books, and not some online article(s)? Are they written with actual evidence backing them up, because all I read above were quotes, e.g. do they reference scripts/inscriptions from Arabia which discuss this etc? I'll make it easy for you, present your 5 strongest evidence for your matriarchal Arabia - obviously, by "strongest" I'd expect them to come with evidence.
By your usual tactics, I am referring to your alleged preference of logic and the scientific method when scrutinising Quran, yet display very little yourself in your own views/statements. Simple.
No, I will not do anything any longer. All you are doing is moving the goal posts and I am tired of your games. You are not interested in a discussion but a notch in your Koran. Tough luck.
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Peace
This topic has moved from the original subject, but I wanted to post this even though late.
Some very interesting definitions of zeenathuhunna such as make up etc.
From 2431, how can make up be exposed when a woman part or move her legs wide ( sorry, the verse does not say feet, like in the hadiths on the hanging bells on womens feet) ?
Please see the link below for a previous discussion on this and this particular matter was settled I guess.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11995.msg87737#msg87737
