Is Arabic a clear language?
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Peace All,
It intrigues me that there is so much confusion around meaning in the Koran. Reason, God tells us that it is written in Arabic so that we might understand. I'm beginning to wonder whether clarity was the reason for it being written in Arabic!
I am a native speaker of English and know the grammar inside out of French and German. I am pretty certain that had the Koran been written in those languages, based on grammar, there would be no confusion of interpretation of text.
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Peace All,
It intrigues me that there is so much confusion around meaning in the Koran. Reason, God tells us that it is written in Arabic so that we might understand. I'm beginning to wonder whether clarity was the reason for it being written in Arabic!
I am a native speaker of English and know the grammar inside out of French and German. I am pretty certain that had the Koran been written in those languages, based on grammar, there would be no confusion of interpretation of text.Peace dawngorgeous,
I agree, I'd like to know why the arabic language has so many variations.
Peace O0
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Dawn, are you saying you don't understand even one word of the Quran? I don't think so, right?
Pick up any translation and I really doubt you'll come to the conclusion that the Quran says
- there are two gods
- do evil and proper
- ignore God in your life
Therefore the Quran cannot be that confusing. What we're dealing with rather is pushing the boundaries of meaning towards 100% intended meaning by God. This meaning does not come from reading ancient dictionaries and grammr books but rather LIVING IN THE PATH and experiencing the signs for yourself.
The Quran is a very personal book. When people try to assume authority and tell you how to read it, then it becomes confusing. Keep reading on your own and researching and most importantly, practising. I believe thats the process towards the Truth.
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Peace Abdulraqan,
Yes, you are right. The basic tenets of the Koran are clear to me. However, currently I am living in a part of the world where polygamy is practised as a matter of course. I am lucky enough to be working amongst the indigenous women and they are an unhappy bunch. It's for this sort of reason that I wish the Arabic was not so uncertain. Were it clearer, these women could turn round and say to their men that the Koran does not support their behaviour.
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Dawn, no amount of language manoeuvering will get the Quran to say 'marry 2,3,4 women' for your pleasure and fun. Only by ripping out the context of verses can people play that game.
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Dawn, are you saying you don't understand even one word of the Quran? I don't think so, right?
Pick up any translation and I really doubt you'll come to the conclusion that the Quran says
- there are two gods
- do evil and proper
- ignore God in your life
Therefore the Quran cannot be that confusing. What we're dealing with rather is pushing the boundaries of meaning towards 100% intended meaning by God. This meaning does not come from reading ancient dictionaries and grammr books but rather LIVING IN THE PATH and experiencing the signs for yourself.
The Quran is a very personal book. When people try to assume authority and tell you how to read it, then it becomes confusing. Keep reading on your own and researching and most importantly, practising. I believe thats the process towards the Truth.
Excellent post @abdalquran, I agree with you.
Also
We Made the Quran Easy
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix3.htmlWhy Was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix4.htmlWe have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.
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Peace All,
It intrigues me that there is so much confusion around meaning in the Koran. Reason, God tells us that it is written in Arabic so that we might understand. I'm beginning to wonder whether clarity was the reason for it being written in Arabic!
I am a native speaker of English and know the grammar inside out of French and German. I am pretty certain that had the Koran been written in those languages, based on grammar, there would be no confusion of interpretation of text.
Peace Dawn,
I am sure there are the same issues with the languages of Aramaic and Hebrew, which parts of the Bible were written in.
Also, sure you may have no issues with German and French, they are easily translated languages. I worked for man that was Mexican once and there were times I would ask him what something meant in his language and he would stop and then say "You know, I really can't translate that phrase or word...there just isn't a way to say it in English." I found that puzzling...how can one NOT explain something?
I personally feel that doctrine is a test. I think Allah knew people would get caught up on the details and it would cause them to fall away from true worship, while some others would be able to see the bigger picture.
People will find fault with anything they can and want to...as Godsubmitter posted
We have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.
Peace,
Amina
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Dawn, are you saying you don't understand even one word of the Quran? I don't think so, right?
Pick up any translation and I really doubt you'll come to the conclusion that the Quran says- there are two gods
- do evil and proper
- ignore God in your life
Therefore the Quran cannot be that confusing. What we're dealing with rather is pushing the boundaries of meaning towards 100% intended meaning by God. This meaning does not come from reading ancient dictionaries and grammr books but rather LIVING IN THE PATH and experiencing the signs for yourself.
The Quran is a very personal book. When people try to assume authority and tell you how to read it, then it becomes confusing. Keep reading on your own and researching and most importantly, practising. I believe thats the process towards the Truth.
Peace abdalquran, thanks for the help.
I find the quran easy to understand and to be the book of books, but the question remains
Peace All,
I am a native speaker of English and know the grammar inside out of French and German. I am pretty certain that had the Koran been written in those languages, based on grammar, there would be no confusion of interpretation of text.Peace O0
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Peace All,
It intrigues me that there is so much confusion around meaning in the Koran. Reason, God tells us that it is written in Arabic so that we might understand. I'm beginning to wonder whether clarity was the reason for it being written in Arabic!
I am a native speaker of English and know the grammar inside out of French and German. I am pretty certain that had the Koran been written in those languages, based on grammar, there would be no confusion of interpretation of text.
Salamun alaika,
The day you start learning Arabic through Qur'aan and acquaint your self with just few basic things, you will feel sorry why you did not learn it earlier that could have helped you avoid erroneous perception about French and german.
Learning Arabic, mind it, is the easiest in all languages of the world. Just see first six words of Qur'aan and you are through with one third of learning process.
Grand Qur'aan proclaims Arabic is easy to learn and understand.
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Peace Mazhar,
That is exactly my point. If it is so clear, why are there so many different interpretations of meanings?
Dawn
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Peace All.
If it was was clear, what is the point of " being tested" to bring out our true conviction? To distinguish the true from the false?
If it was so clear, God and the Angels might as well come down and get this life over and done with?
If it was so clear and everyone gets it... what would be the point of some working hard , pondering its words, asking their creator for help?
If it was so easy and clear... everyone will be saved! Even those that do not deserve it... is that fair?
If it was so clear why is the world divided and wicked and Godless?
And so on ... And so on...
With pain there is gain.
Peace. -
Peace Dawn,
You seem to have knowledge of adequate knowledge of English, French, and German it seems. Are you fluent in any other languages? When that Mexican man said that he could not translate something for you in English, I know exactly what he means. I speak three other languages apart from English. It all has to do with differences in cultural context, I think. There are ways in which we say or convey certain things, and if translated, they would little or no sense in the English language. I run into that all the time. The only way to really understand why certain things cannot be translated clearly, is to to learn the language in question for yourself, and then realize the reasoning behind this seemingly strange phenomenon. After doing this, you may also discover why there are so many variations in word meaning and the many possibilities in interpretation.
I believe the Arabic language was chosen due to the fact that it is extremely versatile and full of deep, varying word meanings. The Book is for all time. I believe, it can be interpreted according to a specific context and time period given word versatility. Sometimes, we're just looking for clear cut answers. However, I think that God wants us to ponder over the revelation instead of looking for "yes" and "no" answers.
There is nothing in the Quran that encourages polygamy. I think we talked about that in an earlier thread. Instead, God warns against it. Though, there is a very specific kind of wisdom in its allowance. You and I may not be able to understand this wisdom as we see it as a hindrance rather than a blessing. We cannot understand God's wisdom in its entirety.
One can choose to see the word as "marry off" rather than "marry" if it suits them. I believe you are using your own context and life experiences to determine which interpretation is best suited for this world. However, not everyone feels that way, because their life experience in this world has made it necessary for them to embrace the more traditional word meaning.
There are many children who have been left without fathers ( due to war, disease, famine, etc), and live in the most dangerous parts of the world. Perhaps, you and I are not familiar with this scenario. To marry the mothers of these children would mean to provide a support structure for these children. It would mean to provide them with supervision and the blessing of both a mother and father. Why marry the woman? Well, I believe it is good for a child's psychology to know that his or her parents or caretakers are married, and that he or she is a legitimate member of the family. As I've said before, marriage will often seal the deal. In certain societies, a woman with children who is not married can easily be taken advantage of. Marriage is often a symbol of status and will help these women in retaining their dignity among members of the society.
This is often the case in many third world countries with high poverty rates, unstable governments, constant warfare, etc. Polygamy may present itself to be blessing for many of these people. Though, how can I know for sure? I was born and raised in the United States. Still, the book is not just for me. It's for all people and all time. There are certain things that I am not going to understand because my hardships are of a different nature. Polygamy is something that I am unable to accept nor understand because of my personal circumstances. However, who am I to rule it out for those people, who may be able to benefit greatly from it? Marriage is often contracted for reasons of convenience for some people in the world. It's not as lovey dovey as it is for us.
I am living in the United States at the moment, and you are observing the injustices within Saudi society. Perhaps, if we lived in Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, etc then we may feel differently about this. God forbid we would ever in a situation where we would have to seek out a polygamous lifestyle in order to secure a better future for our children. It may not work for us, but there is a strong possibility of it being the lifestyle of choice for others. Again, even in dire circumstances, there is nothing in the Quran that coerces polygamy.
Apologies for shifting topic.
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The Arabgic may be clear, exactly as a a manual on machinery may be clear, but if a lay person takes that manual he will not have a clue. To understand something you must be interested in that something. Then you must not have vested interests, conscious or unconscious, known or unknown in making out of it something rather than other.
To pretend that a religious text be not subject to myriad interpretations in whatever language is wanting to catch the moon.
First, people have very different intelectual, spiritual, moral and social levels, they cannot interpret outside the level thay are in. Second, people have purposes and interests. If a respected scholar, for instance, wants to attack a certain social problem in which religious people are involved, he will resort to manipulating, with the best intention, religion, or to take one aspect of religion which seems more amenable, to contribute to solve that problem. Then of course there are simply the power trips which have wreck havoc with all religions.
It is not a problem with the ORIGINAL text, it is the accretions that are piled onto it, through convention, ignorance (even if it is aboidad as much as possible), self interest, ambition, lazyness...
I think the Qur'an is clear, but also that it has many facets and not every person gets all of them, and even the same one. And of course, in many aspects it has been twisted in translationa an intepretations beyond recognition. And we are so much molded by thos interpretations, even if they are delirious, that we cannot escape them. We precondition the Qur'an so much, I am amazed.
There si absolutely nothing missing, as far as clarity goes, in the Qur'an, but we have a tremendous job of cleaning it of accretions and of cleaning ourselves of self interest, accretions, veils, etc. etc.
Salaam
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Peace Mazhar,
That is exactly my point. If it is so clear, why are there so many different interpretations of meanings?
Dawn
The quran is a book not to be taken lightly. Oftentimes some of the verses will only present their clear and self-evident meaning after years of intensive study & focus. Other verses reveal themselves in the same fashion as Zen koans, a sudden moment of awakening where the message becomes crystal clear in the mind.
And also one must suffer hard to understand even what one may think are the most mild of God's commandments. Not that the suffering is necessary, as if you take heed immediately then it will be great but that the suffering teaches you the precious value of God's precise words.
Why so many interpretations? You forget there are 7 billion humans on this planet right now and none of us knows everything. That's 7 billion unique interpretations of the same single book. Just because 10 or 20 are majorly publicised by people does not mean those 10 or 20 are canonical translations/interpretations of the quran.
The only canonical interpretation of the quran endorsed by our supreme lord is a life which adheres entirely to the commandments of God alone; then all the more nuanced verses will themselves transpire. Why are you going to worry about dividing inheritance and beating women if you stand by and watch the world burn away anyway? Be aware that living this life for the sake of living this life itself is a state of pure stagnation and condemned by God throughout the book. Every precious second not spent acting on god's commands is a second where satan prevails in some shape or form.
As believers we must act first and foremost then when we have attained the true wisdom by acting on God's commands and understanding how these commands benefit society, only THEN can we start arguing about the meaning of this or that. 1+1=2 is the same statement in ANY language and by knowing '1' and '2' in your own language the arabic itself ceases to matter too much. Otherwise it is like a bunch of blind people in a room arguing about what colour their shoes are.
Is this not the disease of the community? Rather if you ACT on the commandments and be diligent, the quran will reveal itself to you without a second thought.
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Peace All,
I am speaking as someone, who only has access to the Koran through translation. How do I know that it will have been translated accurately. I don't mean in terms of shades of meaning. I mean in terms of fact. The verse about the orphans requires an accurate translation. It makes a whole big difference whether someone is marrying off the orphans or marrying them himself. As I said, I sometimes work in Saudi and I can guarantee you that the men here are not marrying four wives to protect them and their children.
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Therefore the Quran cannot be that confusing. What we're dealing with rather is pushing the boundaries of meaning towards 100% intended meaning by God. This meaning does not come from reading ancient dictionaries and grammr books but rather LIVING IN THE PATH and experiencing the signs for yourself.
The Quran is a very personal book. When people try to assume authority and tell you how to read it, then it becomes confusing. Keep reading on your own and researching and most importantly, practising. I believe thats the process towards the Truth.
I would change that statement to "This meaning does not come ONLY from reading ancient dictionaries and grammr books but ALSO LIVING IN THE PATH and experiencing the signs for yourself."
If I don't understand it this way and ignore meanings and grammar, I could read it backwards and upon not making sense, throw it in the bin. By the way, I am not claiming that every word of the Qur'an "must" have a specific meaning. That would contradict my understanding that the book is dynamic in nature and for all of humanity.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
I am a native speaker of English and know the grammar inside out of French and German. I am pretty certain that had the Koran been written in those languages, based on grammar, there would be no confusion of interpretation of text.
Peace -- English grammar standards were non-existent until mid 1550 and Lane's Arabic Lexicon 1863.
I am speaking as someone, who only has access to the Koran through translation. How do I know that it will have been translated accurately. I don't mean in terms of shades of meaning. I mean in terms of fact. The verse about the orphans requires an accurate translation. It makes a whole big difference whether someone is marrying off the orphans or marrying them himself. As I said, I sometimes work in Saudi and I can guarantee you that the men here are not marrying four wives to protect them and their children.
They have to be of age before one can marry them; verse is pertaining to marrying grown women.
43 and if you fear that not you will be able to do justice in the orphans so marry what choice to you from al-nisa twos and three and four so if you fear that not you can do justice so one or what possess your right hands that lowest/minimum that not you oppress
46 and test the orphans until when reached the marriage so if you perceive from them rational so deliver to them their wealth and not eat/consume it wastefully and hastily lest/that they grow up and from is rich so should refrain and from is in need for so let eat/consume in fair manner so when you deliver to them their wealth so take witnesses on them and sufficient in The God Reckoner
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As I said, I sometimes work in Saudi and I can guarantee you that the men here are not marrying four wives to protect them and their children.
Peace,
Again, you are speaking from within a certain context. Saudi law is not going to dictate how polygamy plays out everywhere. It is especially not perceived in the same manner from a Quran only mindset.
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They have to be of age before one can marry them; verse is pertaining to marrying grown women.
43 and if you fear that not you will be able to do justice in the orphans so marry what choice to you from al-nisa twos and three and four so if you fear that not you can do justice so one or what possess your right hands that lowest/minimum that not you oppress
46 and test the orphans until when reached the marriage so if you perceive from them rational so deliver to them their wealth and not eat/consume it wastefully and hastily lest/that they grow up and from is rich so should refrain and from is in need for so let eat/consume in fair manner so when you deliver to them their wealth so take witnesses on them and sufficient in The God Reckoner
Also, Noon waalqalami has above made the point that I tried to convey in your earlier thread. Try to understand this within the context of widowed women with orphaned children. Quite obviously, the Saudi ulema has either not studied this verse properly or they have ignored the possibility of it serving a different purpose. You are seeing the repercussions of their biases playing out within their society.
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Salam
Majority think of Quran as an ordinary book that just read it and try to understand it but that?s not true. Not only for understanding the Quran language is irrelevant but also no matter how much one knows Arabic grammar and fluent in speaking or being native language Almighty God has set the condition to understand it and that?s sincerity and purity of the mind from all kind of idolatry that includes our ego too.
5675-I swear by the positions of the stars.
5676-This is an oath, if you only knew, that is awesome.
5677-This is an honorable Quran.
5678-In a protected book.
5679-None can grasp it except the sincere.
Peace