Mental Gymnastics Anyone?
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Well! Harrumph to you too!
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I have been getting a little unsettled by the understanding of some that, l-nisa , rajulin and l-alata do not mean women, man, prayer/supplication. I have given my understanding of relevant verses, but some just keep coming back with a completely different translation. To the point where I am having to do mental gymnastics in order to comprehend their meaning. At one point I even started to question my own sanity! Let me give you an example
Freeminds
2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
Khalifa (I put Khalifa here only because I do like his translation.)
Do not marry idolatresses unless they believe; a believing woman is better than an idolatress, even if you like her. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage to idolatrous men, unless they believe. A believing man is better than an idolater, even if you like him. These invite to Hell, while GOD invites to Paradise and forgiveness, as He wills. He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may take heed.
Now comes the translation I have a problem with
Do not make any agreement with the mushrik parties (that are associating own laws with the divine laws/doing shirk with Ehkamate Elahi), as long as they are not able to make peace/becomes ahl amn. Because a Momin ummat is better than a mushrik ummat, no matter how fascinating it is to you. Likewise, you don?t let a mushrik make an agreement until he is not able to make peace/ becomes ahl amn, because a Momin (provider of amn) is better than a mushrik (the one who associate laws parallel to Ehkamate Elahi) no matter how alluring he seem to you. They call you towards the fire whereas the laws of nature call you to a protecting welfare society, and He describes the rules for mankind so the advice is remembered ???
I don't know about anyone else? I am having a problem with what seems to be a very complex and difficult understanding of the above translation, hence feeling unsettled? I just wondered if anyone else is having the same problem? I would appreciate feedback on this. sun
Peace Scrappy-doo,
Freeminds is closest this verse; the others are poor, inconsistent, and inject words that are not there.2221 and not marry the idolatress until believing and handmaiden believing best/better from polytheist and if/had you like her and not marry the polytheists until they believe and a servant/devotee believing best/better from polytheist man and if/had you liked him those they invite to the fire and The God invites to the garden/paradise and the forgiveness by His permission and He makes clear His verses/signs to the mankind they may remember/take heed
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Salaamun Alayka Noon waalqalami.
Thank you so much for responding. I have seen the literal translation on this verse, and while I am satisfied with it, I am pushed to understand the last translation. What I question is; where does this translation that l-nisa (meaning in this case Mushrik) come from? This way of translating AQ, appears to be trending of late.
Wishing you Peace and kindest regards.
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Salaamun Alayka Noon waalqalami.
Thank you so much for responding. I have seen the literal translation on this verse, and while I am satisfied with it, I am pushed to understand the last translation. What I question is; where does this translation that l-nisa (meaning in this case Mushrik) come from? This way of translating AQ, appears to be trending of late.
Wishing you Peace and kindest regards.
You are welcome. Not sure why they mix words when it's there in the next verse which obviously nisa means women since men don't have menses ... laugh
2222 and they ask you about the menstruation say it ailment so abandon al-nisa/the women in the menstruation and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God
indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselvesPeace
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What is your conclusion about the meaning of l-nisaa and rajulin? What suggestion brought you to the possibility of translating these words in a different way?
I would say definitely read ALL translations no matter what. I don't think you're trying to confuse anyone on purpose. You're just doing your best to read the Quran in the way it's supposed to be read.
I agree that salat does not mean contact prayer because of this article http//www.free-minds.org/whats-name
And this post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9959.msg44844#msg44844This post is a summary (basically) of the first two. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601105.msg257394#msg257394
Now the reasoning behind this is if you take every single verse mentioning "salat", contact prayer does not make sense in certain cases. For instance
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.
1959 Then, generations came after them who lost the contact prayer, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.
1960 Except for whoever repents and believes and does good works; they will be admitted to the Paradise, and they will not be wronged in the least.So they stopped praying?? But then they had to repent/do good works/and believe in order to make up for it? Why isn't it repent, then pray again?
2458 O you who believe, let those who are maintained by your oaths, and those who have attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
It's not wrong for you to intermingle during your salat time? Does that make sense?
Peace! yay
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How anyone can infer that I am inadvertently or intentionally trying to create confusion? I thought it was clear that I am the one confused over the confusing translation? wow
That being said; It looks like I am once again finding myself going around this ever increasing circle. brickwall
You are welcome. Not sure why they mix words when it's there in the next verse which obviously nisa means women since men don't have menses ... laugh
2222 and they ask you about the menstruation say it ailment so abandon al-nisa/the women in the menstruation and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God
indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselvesPeace
You would have thought so? Unfortunately the understanding is the word l-mai is not meaning the time of menstruation.
Here is the translation
They ask you about bloodshed (occuring because of war/conflicts), tell them in it it is pain and suffering, so keep away from a weaker segments that are involved in bloodshed (don't get involved in the bloodshed/violence along with them), And until they don't separate themselves from non-Elahi commandments, don't make any commitment with them. However, when they are cleaned from the non-Elahi commandments, then approach them as instructed in the Ehkamate Elahi. No doubt Ehkamate eElahi
I agree that salat does not mean contact prayer because of this article http//www.free-minds.org/whats-name
- Those are the ones whom God Has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Ibrahim and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down hearing and obeying and in tears.
With all due respect to the author of the Article. What are we to fall down on? Our chins, knees, elbows or heads?
Wake up
Wash
The first learning connection
Change our clothes to go out (1st private time period)
Go out
Return home
Change our clothes from going out (2nd private time period)
Wash
The second learning connection
After (#9) and until (#3) (3rd private time period)What if I don't want to change my clothes twice a day? What if I only have one set of clothes? Why is going out considered a private time? When I go out to town let's say, I'm hardly alone, unless of course I sneak around in shop doorways, and even then it would be pretty futile. It all sounds like more confusion (there's that word again).
- And if you are with them and you persist in the learning connection for them, then let a group from amongst them persist with you and let them take their weapons; and when they have heard and obeyed then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet made the learning connection come and connect with you, and let them be wary and take their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and belongings so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if there is harm to you from rain, or if you are ill, that you put down your weapons, but be wary. The God Has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
So let me try and understand. These people all believers, fighting for the same cause, some of them have not yet made the learning connection? Have you ever heard the saying; There are no atheists in a foxhole. This Proverb claims that during times of great crisis, in particular those which threaten a person's life, it is no longer possible to "hold out" and maintain disbelief in a higher, saving power. During such experiences, the "natural" and automatic reaction of a human being is to start believing in The God and hope for some form of salvation. Imagine you are fighting in a war. Would you really want to stop to take in some tutorial on how to implement your belief? Where as to supplicate/honour The God, would be more appropriate at this time.
It's not wrong for you to intermingle during your salat time? Does that make sense?
2458 I understand this verse to be talking about asking permission before entering a room, as one might be in a state of undress. Intermingling during the time of supplication? Why? This is a time when you are magnifying The God, why would you want to mingle during this time?
What is your conclusion about the meaning of l-nisaa and rajulin? What suggestion brought you to the possibility of translating these words in a different way?
My understanding is; l-nisa , rajulin means women and men. l-alata depends on the context of the verse, obedience, following closely and the physical act of supplication.
Peace and kindest regards. sun
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Had we willed, we could have elevated him therewith, but he insisted on sticking to the ground, and pursued his own opinions. Thus, he is like the dog; whether you pet him or scold him, he pants. Such is the example of people who reject our proofs. Narrate these narrations, that they may reflect.
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Scrappy doo
You would have thought so? Unfortunately the understanding is the word l-mai is not meaning the time of menstruation
Here is the translation
They ask you about bloodshed (occuring because of war/conflicts), tell them in it it is pain and suffering, so keep away from a weaker segments that are involved in bloodshed (don't get involved in the bloodshed/violence along with them), And until they don't separate themselves from non-Elahi commandments, don't make any commitment with them. However, when they are cleaned from the non-Elahi commandments, then approach them as instructed in the Ehkamate Elahi. No doubt Ehkamate eElahi
I totaly agree with you.
Personally I dont think Nisa means women, first time I suspected that nisa are not women was while reading following verse
4911 O you who have believed, let not a people {QAWM} ridicule people {QAWM}; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women {NISA?} ridicule women {NISA?}; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after faith. And whoever does not repent ? then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
Now if we assume that NISA means women then why are they separated from the word 'qawm' (people) ? I mean, after all, women are a part of people confused
One sisters comment on the verse was following Let?s assume nisa? does mean ?women? and qawm does mean ?people?. That would imply that women have a natural tendency to insult others more than anyone else (although women ARE a part of ?people?). This would also mean women are quranically viewed as something LESS than ?people?, since they were mentioned separately. Some would say, ?No, it?s just a special warning to women because they are such gossipers?. I would say, ?Go eat sht?. I had ha million sit-down with gossiping males, and they don?t only talk, but also talk sht. If you?re a man and you think women chat more, I hope something hits you in the eye.
Moreover, if we consider nisa? to mean ?women?, does that mean a woman can mock a man since she is not ordered to abstain from gossiping about men? Does it not surprise you that Allah (st) would say, ?Do not mock? according to gender?
Peace
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You would have thought so? Unfortunately the understanding is the word l-mai is not meaning the time of menstruation.
Here is the translation
They ask you about bloodshed (occuring because of war/conflicts), tell them in it it is pain and suffering, so keep away from a weaker segments that are involved in bloodshed (don't get involved in the bloodshed/violence along with them), And until they don't separate themselves from non-Elahi commandments, don't make any commitment with them. However, when they are cleaned from the non-Elahi commandments, then approach them as instructed in the Ehkamate Elahi. No doubt Ehkamate eElahi
Perhaps cross-reference for best meaning and not sure what words above are being translated to what...
654 and those who have despaired from the menstruation from nisakum/your women if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles (prefix alif denotes plural) and those who not menstruated and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier
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With all due respect to the author of the Article. What are we to fall down on? Our chins, knees, elbows or heads?
Wake up
Wash
The first learning connection
Change our clothes to go out (1st private time period)
Go out
Return home
Change our clothes from going out (2nd private time period)
Wash
The second learning connection
After (#9) and until (#3) (3rd private time period)What if I don't want to change my clothes twice a day? What if I only have one set of clothes? Why is going out considered a private time? When I go out to town let's say, I'm hardly alone, unless of course I sneak around in shop doorways, and even then it would be pretty futile. It all sounds like more confusion (there's that word again).
My understanding is; l-nisa , rajulin means women and men. l-alata depends on the context of the verse, obedience, following closely and the physical act of supplication.
The private time is before salat and after salat. And the questions you addressed were answered in the article and in the two forum posts, though I understand that they are quite long. That's why I gave a summarizing one, and the main article is an explanation of "why" to every question you've asked. Nevermind, though.
Peace.
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Scrappy doo
I totaly agree with you.
Personally I dont think Nisa means women, first time I suspected that nisa are not women was while reading following verse
4911 O you who have believed, let not a people {QAWM} ridicule people {QAWM}; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women {NISA?} ridicule women {NISA?}; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after faith. And whoever does not repent ? then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
Now if we assume that NISA means women then why are they separated from the word 'qawm' (people) ? I mean, after all, women are a part of people confused
One sisters comment on the verse was following Let?s assume nisa? does mean ?women? and qawm does mean ?people?. That would imply that women have a natural tendency to insult others more than anyone else (although women ARE a part of ?people?). This would also mean women are quranically viewed as something LESS than ?people?, since they were mentioned separately. Some would say, ?No, it?s just a special warning to women because they are such gossipers?. I would say, ?Go eat sht?. I had ha million sit-down with gossiping males, and they don?t only talk, but also talk sht. If you?re a man and you think women chat more, I hope something hits you in the eye.
Moreover, if we consider nisa? to mean ?women?, does that mean a woman can mock a man since she is not ordered to abstain from gossiping about men? Does it not surprise you that Allah (st) would say, ?Do not mock? according to gender?
Peace
Peace Maha,
In those days and today in much of the world including my own clan best rendered as patriarchy (includes only males).
4911 O you the ones who believe not mock qawmin/patriarchy from patriarchy perhaps that they are good/better from them and not women from women perhaps that they are good/better from them and not insult yourselves and not call each other by nicknames wretched the name the immoral after the faith and from not repent so those they the wrongdoers
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Salaamun Alayka Maha.
Thank you for your response.Scrappy doo
Personally I dont think Nisa means women, first time I suspected that nisa are not women was while reading following verse
4911 O you who have believed, let not a people {QAWM} ridicule people {QAWM}; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women {NISA?} ridicule women {NISA?}; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after faith. And whoever does not repent ? then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
Now if we assume that NISA means women then why are they separated from the word 'qawm' (people) ? I mean, after all, women are a part of people confused
4911 I understand the word qawmun N ? nominative masculine indefinite noun, and qawmin N ? genitive masculine indefinite noun, are talking about the people (Superintendents/Maintainers) of the group. If you look at 5914 we have the same word qawmun. This verse is clearly talking about warfare. Again in 522 They said "O Moses, in it are a mighty (jabbrna) people (qawmin), and we will not enter it until they leave. So when they leave, then we will enter it."
The root of jabbrna is; Jiim-Ba-Ra = To reduce from a fractured state, or restore from a state of poverty to sufficiency. Set or reduced from a fractured state. "A poor man being likened to one who has a broken bone and his restoration to wealth being likened to the setting of the bone." Compell, constrain, incite, urge, or induce another . Addition of something for the purpose of reparation . Self-magnification, pride, haughtiness, insolence, bold, audacious, inordinate, tyrannical, overbearing, extravagent. A king. "There has been no prophetic office but a kingly office has succeeded in its place through someone's self-magnification, pride, haughtiness, or insolence." Slave, servant. No retaliation or expiatory mulct exacted . Tall, above the reach of the hand, ascend , and retaining excellence.
I don't understand this to be a description of women, more so of men as they are the ones more likely to participate in warfare, become kings and tyrannical rulers. Rather than understanding that 4911 is defining women as something less than people, it appears that the verse is further affirming the different roles that men and women have in society.
Peace and kind regards sun
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Peace Maha,
In those days and today in much of the world including my own clan best rendered as patriarchy (includes only males).
4911 O you the ones who believe not mock qawmin/patriarchy from patriarchy perhaps that they are good/better from them and not women from women perhaps that they are good/better from them and not insult yourselves and not call each other by nicknames wretched the name the immoral after the faith and from not repent so those they the wrongdoers
From where do you get patriarchy from brother? Pakistani society is a patriarchy society and when we in Urdu say qawm(people) then it's of course both men and women since "people" is a genderless word an so is it in English as well. People in English contains also of both men and women and children etc. check it up in a dictionary if you don't believe.
Males only is called "men".Peace
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Do not make any agreement with the mushrik parties (that are associating own laws with the divine laws/doing shirk with Ehkamate Elahi), as long as they are not able to make peace/becomes ahl amn. Because a Momin ummat is better than a mushrik ummat, no matter how fascinating it is to you. Likewise, you don?t let a mushrik make an agreement until he is not able to make peace/ becomes ahl amn, because a Momin (provider of amn) is better than a mushrik (the one who associate laws parallel to Ehkamate Elahi) no matter how alluring he seem to you. They call you towards the fire whereas the laws of nature call you to a protecting welfare society, and He describes the rules for mankind so the advice is remembered ???
I don't know about anyone else? I am having a problem with what seems to be a very complex and difficult understanding of the above translation, hence feeling unsettled? I just wondered if anyone else is having the same problem? I would appreciate feedback on this. sunPeace Scrappy-doo,
That translation is a head spinner! thanks but no thanks.
I prefer the RK translation, I also cross reference when websites have their prefered translations.
Peace O0
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Salaamun Alayka Maha.
Thank you for your response.
4911 I understand the word qawmun N ? nominative masculine indefinite noun, and qawmin N ? genitive masculine indefinite noun, are talking about the people (Superintendents/Maintainers) of the group. If you look at 5914 we have the same word qawmun. This verse is clearly talking about warfare. Again in 522 They said "O Moses, in it are a mighty (jabbrna) people (qawmin), and we will not enter it until they leave. So when they leave, then we will enter it."The root of jabbrna is; Jiim-Ba-Ra = To reduce from a fractured state, or restore from a state of poverty to sufficiency. Set or reduced from a fractured state. "A poor man being likened to one who has a broken bone and his restoration to wealth being likened to the setting of the bone." Compell, constrain, incite, urge, or induce another . Addition of something for the purpose of reparation . Self-magnification, pride, haughtiness, insolence, bold, audacious, inordinate, tyrannical, overbearing, extravagent. A king. "There has been no prophetic office but a kingly office has succeeded in its place through someone's self-magnification, pride, haughtiness, or insolence." Slave, servant. No retaliation or expiatory mulct exacted . Tall, above the reach of the hand, ascend , and retaining excellence.
I don't understand this to be a description of women, more so of men as they are the ones more likely to participate in warfare, become kings and tyrannical rulers. Rather than understanding that 4911 is defining women as something less than people, it appears that the verse is further affirming the different roles that men and women have in society.
Peace and kind regards sun
You should get some history lessons. Women have participated in many wars and they still do. However the verse you quoted about a mighty qowm being against them is quite logical both men and women were against them . Just like both men and women (people) were against the Jews durig second world war.
Peace
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salaam all,
As Noon has pointed out, cross-reference usually clears up many issues.
Sure, some translations out there have words meaning different things, some very different, but how many of them are actually cross-referenced and/or with supporting evidence? Very few.
salaam Maha,
Re 4911
Are you aware that "qawm" can mean "group of men" in classical Arabic? See Lane's Lexicon for example. In fact, Lane says that is its proper meaning, although personally, I think context will determine what is meant.The example you cite, and I have seen it cited before by those who advocate alternative views for rijal/nisa, is weak at best. What is commonly done by such proponents is to present one side of an argument (i.e. their own view), but remain quiet about other sides, and/or fail to present an evidenced and viable alternative. Such an approach is unlikely to be fruitful.
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Wakas
Are you aware that "qawm" can mean "group of men" in classical Arabic? See Lane's Lexicon for example. In fact, Lane says that is its proper meaning, although personally, I think context will determine what is meant.
Give m? some evidences for qawm means group of men. Now you are coming up with an alternative idea of what qawm means?
The example you cite, and I have seen it cited before by those who advocate alternative views for rijal/nisa
You mean like you just came up with your alternative view on "qawm"?
is
is weak at bestNo it isn't weak
What is commonly done by such proponents is to present one side of an argument (i.e. their own view), but remain quiet about other sides, and/or fail to present an evidenced and viable alternative. Such an approach is unlikely to be fruitful.
Wrong that isn't done by such proponents. In fact it's yo? who present one side of an argument (your own) and remain quite about other sides, just take a look at your alternative view on "qawm"
Peace
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Wakas
If you choose not to look up Lane's Lexicon, that is up to you.
Lanes lexicon isnt the truth from heaven, neither could I find in it what you are talking about. In any case, I have 4 other arabic dictionaries as well as quran translations in front of me which translate qawm to 'people'.
I prefer to discuss with people who prioritise evidence over conjecture
Then dont discuss with yourself. So far you have not presented one single evidence, all what you have done is presenting conjecture and accusing people of your own actions.
Peace
