Where did "wudu" come from??
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Ok so you agree that God doesn't want to impose any hardship and He wishes to purify us. Keeping that in mind, let's taking a closer look at this verse......
God starts out telling believers (man and woman) that before standing up for salat, wash your face, your hands to your elbows, and your feet upto the ankles. (This is the traditional translation)
And then God addresses a man commanding him to taking a full bath and 'purify' himself physically after seminal pollution. (Interpret it any way you want taking it to mean after wet dreams, masturbation, sex). How about the woman? Does this command also extend to a woman if she had sex?
God did say that he doesn't wish to impose hardship but then commanding to take baths every time a couple has sex, can't that be a hardship especially when water is not readily available and in limited amounts?
Ok if you don't have water, then what? In the next part of the verse, God makes it easy by telling us to wipe the hands and face with dirt if we don't have water. If I am hiking or traveling and don't have water to wash, where am I supposed to go looking for clean dirt? What if I have no clean dirt, or any kind of dirt and no water, then what?
God mentions if you are sick or traveling or had gone to the bathroom and don't have water, what you should do. Why would he mention sick, traveling and going to the bathroom specifically? At the beginning, God makes clear what parts to wash. couldn't he have just said, if you don't have water then you wipe your face and hands with dirt? What if you had sex and water but not enough to take a bath and there is no clean dirt? Then what?
What if you have enough water only for drinking but not washing body parts and you don't have clean dirt, then what? I guess this is why we need rabbis and their laws. I haven't found the hadiths to be much helpful in answering questions. Only made my head hurt from reading one narration after another about what so and so said or heard or saw.
If you are living out in place like Alaska in the freezing cold with no modern amenities, would like to see how you would find doing wudhu 5 times a day to be easy thing? But God does say he doesn't mean to impose any hardship though? I can provide many examples of how this command to wash as part of the ritual salat is a hardship. How many of you here on this forum has performed salat on time every day of your life without skipping at least one time for some reason or another?
So either God is a liar or our understanding is wrong.
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Just because all of them translated it the same doesn't mean they are accurate. This is my point.
Absolutely, and I agree with you. I didn't say that to you to say "look, it's absolutely right!" I just said it because I wanted to point it out in general. )
The same thing happened with salat=prayer, but a deep study shows that there's an alternative translation.
I think this topic needs uncovering because it doesn't make sense to me either.
The root is AMM - Alif,Mim
My bad, I meant to copy/paste it. But I think you pointed out the wrong root???
Alif-Miim-Miim =
ammina to propose, direct one's steps towards a place, repair to, go towards
ummun/umm mother, source, principle, prototype, origin, prototype;
ummi belonging to mother, unlettered, Arab, who have no revealed scripture of their own;
ummatun a man's kinsfolk, tribe, party, community, nation, group of living things having certain characteristics or circumstances in common, any grouping of human or animal, creation, generation, creatures of God;
ummah way/course/manner/mode of acting, faith, religion, nation, , time or period of time, righteous person, a person who is an object of imitation and who is known for goodness/virtues;
imam leader, president, any object that is followed (e.g. human/book/highway), model, example, pattern;
amama before, in front ofI thought it was this one.
Ya-Miim-Miim = sea, river, flood. To aim at getting, to intend, go towards, to have recourse to, to resort to, to head for, to be thrown in the river, purpose a thing, clean with dust or pure earth.
Lol. Thanks, though. I appreciate it!
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The same thing happened with salat=prayer, but a deep study shows that there's an alternative translation.
I think this topic needs uncovering because it doesn't make sense to me either.
Same here! Searching for the truth still.
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And then God addresses a man commanding him to taking a full bath and 'purify' himself physically after seminal pollution. (Interpret it any way you want taking it to mean after wet dreams, masturbation, sex). How about the woman? Does this command also extend to a woman if she had sex?
Good question. Are you able to break down the grammar and explain how it's changed to address men only?
God did say that he doesn't wish to impose hardship but then commanding to take baths every time a couple has sex, can't that be a hardship especially when water is not readily available and in limited amounts?
I suppose that would be relevant to how much sex and what conditions you live in.
What if I have no clean dirt, or any kind of dirt and no water, then what?
Good question. There are indeed other things you can clean your body with. hmm
Why would he mention sick, traveling and going to the bathroom specifically? At the beginning, God makes clear what parts to wash. couldn't he have just said, if you don't have water then you wipe your face and hands with dirt?
Ooh, really good question! Never thought about why those specific circumstances. Why not before eating and such, especially when food is mentioned beforehand? Why not after slaughtering an animal? I would assume that these circumstances would be obvious for cleaning, but then so is when you're ill and after sex.
I guess this is why we need rabbis and their laws. I haven't found the hadiths to be much helpful in answering questions. Only made my head hurt from reading one narration after another about what so and so said or heard or saw.
This is exactly why I'm opposed to taking advice from Jewish law. If you can reject Hadith, why go pick up a Talmud? They're basically the same thing. I might as well stick with Sunnism with that mindset.
If you are living out in place like Alaska in the freezing cold with no modern amenities, would like to see how you would find doing wudhu 5 times a day to be easy thing?
rotfl
How many of you here on this forum has performed salat on time every day of your life without skipping at least one time for some reason or another?
When I used to perform the 5 daily prayers, I still couldn't so "wudu" properly anyways because I had to wear the head scarf and long sleeves. Take off my headscarf just to wipe my hands through my hair when it took me several minutes to wrap? Please. And many times I was stuck at work, which would mean doing the whole nine with my co-workers awkwardly looking at me. Weird. hypno
Like, it wasn't really that bad. I decided that if I love God, nothing was too much. It's just that now I'm having a different perspective with a different way of looking at "salat" in general. If "salat" is not a ritual prayer, then why the ritual cleansing? If salat is pretty much "serve God" then why can't 56 mean "be clean"?
But like you pointed out, Why all the specific circumstances? Very good point.
So either God is a liar or our understanding is wrong.
We know God would never lie. So definitely the latter.
Peace!
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In verse 56, God says that he wishes to purify or cleanse us. God doesn't say how he wants you to be clean or expects you to be clean. He says that he wishes or wants to purify you. Ok - how can God physically clean or purify you? God can purify your heart lifting your burdens. He can purify your thoughts from stress. But how physically?
I don't think that the purification here in this verse is dealing with physical purification. I think it is non-physical which I think is the message of the Koran. Don't ask me what I believe is the alternative translation. Haven't come that far yet but will be looking into another perspective with God's guidance. been reading some older posts on this forum about salat. very interesting. People on this forum have dropped some names, videos, and references. Will be checking them out.
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Peace,
The word wudu does not appears in Quran.
It was passed down from abraham.
Pasted from Mr. Gatita,
There is a precursor to the practice of wudu, and that is of the mikvah in Judaism.
In ancient Judea, a person had to be in a state of ritual purity in order to enter into the Temple area. If a person had become ritually impure, he was required to undergo a ritual immersion in water -- t'vilah in Hebrew. The apostle Paul, and early Jewish Christians, participated in this ritual (compare Acts 2123-26; 241.
Archaeologists have discovered almost fifty ritual baths called mikva'ot -- in the excavations around the southern wall of the Temple precincts.
The Judean ritual of purification by immersion, the mikvah, is undoubtedly a forerunner of the practice of baptism. In ancient Judaism, a cleansed leper, a woman after her menstrual period, any ceremonially defiled person, and a Gentile convert to Judaism, had to undergo the mikvah and be immersed in water, prior to being declared "pure" and able to enter the Temple, or reenter society.
Notice this was being practiced for thousands of years before Islam.
Peace O0
Thank you @hawkninetynine. Your posts are, as always, informative and important.
I would like to add that even other traditions and religions, besides Abrahamic ones, also do have ritual baths, washing and cleaning before engaging in any spiritual or ritualistic religious practice.I think as physical movements of the Salat=Contact prayer (which is different from just mentally praying-like dua or davening) are necessary to put us in the right state in front of Allah, so the wudu is a symbolic action of approaching the "inner temple". It all functions as means to differentiate the normal awakening state from the more elevated, spiritual one. We are all "impure" because of our preexisting sin of failing to uphold the stance for God Alone (and that's why we incarnated on this earth in the first place to have another chance to redeem ourselves), so, everything that resembles our lower/animistic/satanic nature (specially menstruation and drunkenness) needs some kind of purification!
All our physical actions need to be consecrated to God! Even when we eat, we should do it in the name of God, so not to eat as animals do (the necessity to eat being a handicap). )
For more information about our preexisting condition see here
Why Were We Created? http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlAnd about the menstruation it says
They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."So , it clearly says that it is unclean. Now, you can twist and joke about the meanings, translations and who knows what, trying to find the ways which looks like "God-does-not-intend-any-hardship", until you reach the point of abandoning the Qur'an and God altogether, but that is your choice and perdition. Side with shaytanim.
O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.
It says "O you who believe" which is addressed to both men and women, so your question what about women after sex, or how a menstruating woman should pray, is answered there.
To women in this thread
if you really want to learn and practice purified Islam, do consult these pages
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/women/ -
I would like to add that even other traditions and religions, besides Abrahamic ones, also do have ritual baths, washing and cleaning before engaging in any spiritual or ritualistic religious practice.
I think as physical movements of the Salat=Contact prayer (which is different from just mentally praying-like dua or davening) are necessary to put us in the right state in front of Allah, so the wudu is a symbolic action of approaching the "inner temple". It all functions as means to differentiate the normal awakening state from the more elevated, spiritual one. We are all "impure" because of our preexisting sin of failing to uphold the stance for God Alone (and that's why we incarnated on this earth in the first place to have another chance to redeem ourselves), so, everything that resembles our lower/animistic/satanic nature (specially menstruation and drunkenness) needs some kind of purification!
All our physical actions need to be consecrated to God! Even when we eat, we should do it in the name of God, so not to eat as animals do (the necessity to eat being a handicap).
For more information about our preexisting condition see here
Why Were We Created? http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlAnd about the menstruation it says
They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."Agreed
So , it clearly says that it is unclean. Now, you can twist and joke about the meanings, translations and who knows what, trying to find the ways which looks like "God-does-not-intend-any-hardship", until you reach the point of abandoning the Qur'an and God altogether, but that is your choice and perdition. Side with shaytanim.
Very good point!
Thank you @hawkninetynine. Your posts are, as always, informative and important.
I would like to add that even other traditions and religions, besides Abrahamic ones, also do have ritual baths, washing and cleaning before engaging in any spiritual or ritualistic religious practice.Thank you for the kind words.
Here is my earlier post on the subject please correct if necessary.
Wudu or ablution is a descriptive term for ritual cleansing.
Taken from wikipedia
"Ablutions of one sort or another are practiced in nearly every religious tradition, ranging from hand-washing before eating in the Jewish tradition to baptism in the Christian tradition, ritual washing before prayers in Islam, and bathing in the Ganges River in Hinduism.
Ablution in Indigenous Native American religions A number of tribes practice 'greeting the sunrise' each day by bathing in a nearby river and then facing the sunrise to greet the new day. It is a religious endeavor and often involves prayer."
If a pagan practice includes something ordained by God, does that practice become exclusively owned by pagans or contaminated in some way?
I think just by natural incident some truths accur in many traditions.Peace O0
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Thank you @hawkninetynine. Your posts are, as always, informative and important.
I would like to add that even other traditions and religions, besides Abrahamic ones, also do have ritual baths, washing and cleaning before engaging in any spiritual or ritualistic religious practice.I didn't say that it wasn't informative or important. I just prefer to take a deep study of things instead of following people just because everyone does it. Now as for health and hygiene, of course everyone washes! That's not new. All I'm asking is, why does it have to be ritual. Is it a crime now for me to ask questions?
Why are you getting so angry at this topic, anyway? Actually, why are you so bitter in general? I hope your heart softens up to kindness. I'm working on an angry heart as well. May God guide us to righteousness. )
I think as physical movements of the Salat=Contact prayer (which is different from just mentally praying-like dua or davening) are necessary to put us in the right state in front of Allah, so the wudu is a symbolic action of approaching the "inner temple". It all functions as means to differentiate the normal awakening state from the more elevated, spiritual one.
When I did five daily salat, sometimes I would get this "feeling". Like, it was so amazing, like a comfort up my spine. But the best time, the BEST time when that feeling was so powerful that all I could do was fall into tears was when I was actually reading my Quran. That night, I didn't have that "feeling" during my prayer (which happens often) and so I deem it unsuccessful. Whenever that happens, I would write my feelings to God on a piece of paper (which usually is a better "feeling" than during "salat" or I would read the Quran (which in this case, gave me the ultimate "feeling". Perhaps I just don't like monotony? Anywho, all I'm trying to say if I feel that connection best when I'm reading my Quran. That's all.
We are all "impure" because of our preexisting sin of failing to uphold the stance for God Alone (and that's why we incarnated on this earth in the first place to have another chance to redeem ourselves), so, everything that resembles our lower/animistic/satanic nature (specially menstruation and drunkenness) needs some kind of purification!
Says who? First of all, we shouldn't bother with salat at all if we're intoxicated. And second, doing "wudu" while on "impure menstruation" doesn't make you "unmenstruated" or "purily menstruating". You're still in a state of menstruation.
All our physical actions need to be consecrated to God! Even when we eat, we should do it in the name of God, so not to eat as animals do (the necessity to eat being a handicap). )
Eating is a handicap? Either way, I agree with this sentence. "All our physical actions should be consecrated to God". (6162)
For more information about our preexisting condition see here
Why Were We Created? http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlI've read this before. I thought it was quite interesting and indeed a possibility. But what does this have to do with "wudu"? I would think that if we're atoning for our crimes made in heaven, we should be seeking to actively make the world a better place by serving God. The problem is, when our actions are dedicated to "other than God" we are serving other than He. Big difference.
And about the menstruation it says
They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."So , it clearly says that it is unclean.
The unclean state which is required for washing is "Janaba". Here, menstruation is an "adhan".
Concurrence list for "adhan" http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=A*y
Yes, it's indeed harmful. If you've ever studied the contents of menstrual blood, there is a lot of bacteria and live blood in it. There's a lot more to it than you'd think. It's unsafe to have sex during a period because of that bacteria. Does that make us unclean? The thing is, we always have bacteria within our bodies and on the surface of our bodies. It's how we are protected from disease. It makes sense that there's plenty in menstrual blood because of the possibility of a baby which would have no immune system to protect itself.
So once again. Unclean?
Don't worry, I'll do an in-depth study on this whole clean vs unclean thing. Please be patient with me.
Now, you can twist and joke about the meanings, translations and who knows what, trying to find the ways which looks like "God-does-not-intend-any-hardship", until you reach the point of abandoning the Qur'an and God altogether, but that is your choice and perdition. Side with shaytanim.
I told you already that my intention is not to twist things up. I like to study thoroughly. I hate the idea of being a sheep. And best believe I'm not abandoning the Quran. I'm just getting started. Shaytanim wants me to be a sheep. You think I'm gonna listen? rotfl
It says "O you who believe" which is addressed to both men and women, so your question what about women after sex, or how a menstruating woman should pray, is answered there.
Well the question JaM proposed was "why tayammum and why is that only addressed to men?". Apparently there's a grammar change in this verse. I'm hoping someone can break this down, but I may have to include that in my study as well. And plus, that verse is not showing how women should pray, btw. Just saying.
Also, all we're saying is that it doesn't make sense to put dirt on yourself if you can't find water. If after all my studying this is indeed the correct way to translate this, then no problem! Of course I'll do what needs to be done. But should I not at least see if there's another possibility? If you're angry with what I'm doing, you're fine to go your own way.
To women in this thread
if you really want to learn and practice purified Islam, do consult these pages
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/women/Well I'm glad that after all that talk about how impure we all are, we're still able to pray. Awesome.
Peace. peace
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everything that resembles our lower/animistic/satanic nature (specially menstruation and drunkenness) needs some kind of purification!
I fail to understand your statement how a biological process that God had designed resembles lower/satanic nature. A woman doesn't choose to have menses. I am pretty sure women and guys also for that matter would prefer if we didn't. Menstruation is a biological process designed by God.
Your opinion that menstruation is unclean and needs to be purified is based on what? As a woman, I don't "choose" to be "unclean" by having periods. the only way I can stop this resemblance of unclean lower/satanic/animalistic nature as you state is to have my uterus surgically removed or wait for menopause.
Menses is a natural biological process as is urination and defecation. Having menses once a month doesn't make me unclean. What would make me unclean is having poor personal hygiene especially when i am on my menses.
And about the menstruation it says
They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."So , it clearly says that it is unclean.
Really? Can you tell me where God clearly says menses is unclean? When people asked the prophet about menstruation, did God say it is unclean? I suggest that you read the very verse that you have quoted.
Asad translates it as "vulnerable condition"
Ahmed Ali "period of stress"
Picktall "illness"All that God is saying in this verse is that menses is a period of stress. God is talking to men in this verse and the subsequent ones asking that men refrain from having sexual intercourse while a woman is in this state. In the next sentence, God goes on to talk about how He loves those who repent and those who are clean.
So from this verse, I don't know how you came to your conclusion. So what you are saying is that menses is unclean. God clearly states that He loves those who are clean. If menses is unclean and God likes those who are clean, then per what you said God doesn't like women who are unclean with their menses.
Let's see here God created woman. Designed her to have menses every month and along with it there are medical conditions where a woman can have menses for weeks or even months. God considers menses unclean. God likes those who are clean. God is the one who did this to a woman giving her menses and doesn't love her for what He did. Do you not see the fallacy in your statements?
The verse is pretty clear enough where when the prophet was asked about menstruation, God said tell them that this is a "period of stress" or "vulnerable condition" and asking men not to have sexual intercourse while a woman is on her periods. Ok what if couple couldn't control themselves and had sex or if the guy bothered the woman while she was under this period of stress, well God loves those who seek repentance.
The last part of the ayat about God loves those who are "clean". Considering that God is addressing men in this verse and the next verse, and how right before this statement God talks about how he loves those who repent, could it be that having sex with a woman on her menses may be an "unclean" act and God loves those who are clean in their thoughts and actions?
O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.
It says "O you who believe" which is addressed to both men and women, so your question what about women after sex, or how a menstruating woman should pray, is answered there.
Where? Can you tell me where in this verse that you quoted God mentions how a menstruating woman should pray? I don't see any mention of menstruating woman in this verse.
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I think as physical movements of the Salat=Contact prayer (which is different from just mentally praying-like dua or davening) are necessary to put us in the right state in front of Allah, so the wudu is a symbolic action of approaching the "inner temple". It all functions as means to differentiate the normal awakening state from the more elevated, spiritual one.
You are entitled to your thinking. Koran doesn't define salat=contact prayer as you state. If it does then provide me with your evidence. Wudhu is not mentioned by God in the Koran. So the wudhu is coined by men and the symbolism with the "inner temple" that you mention is your personally feelings. This physical movement of worship may be necessary in your life to put you in the state of mind that you need but that holds true only to you and to others who think and feel the same as you. This physical ritual may function as a means to differentiate your awakening state from the elevated spiritual one and to others like you. What works for you and what you need may not hold for others.
I have no issues with your needs and what works for you but we need to make a distinction between your personal feelings and thoughts and what God says. God doesn't mention wudhu in the Koran. God didn't say salat is this physical ritual to be done a particular way. This is my point.
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w/salaam,
So in sum keep yourself clean and fresh whenever you can.
Personally, I'd modify that to So in sum keep yourself clean and fresh whenever relevant/appropriate.
And another question I have is am I supposed to use water every time I use the toilet? Or just after defecating? What's the arabic root for that word?
The literal translation
- Aw = Or
- Ja'a = Come (past tense)
- Ahadun = One
- Minkum = Of You
- Min = From/Of
*Al = the
*Ghaiti = toilet (hole in the ground)
I would assume that these circumstances would be obvious for cleaning, but then so is when you're ill and after sex.
No it is not obvious, especially "illness". It is perhaps only obvious now.
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Salaam
Amazing post and still waiting conlusion..
Im opinion of justamuslim..Quran translations are terrible, and reduced the Quran to a bunch of rituals like imolating, fasting,pilgrimage with circuit around cube.. etc etc.. problem starts in surat Albaqara if one want too see ritual salat in first verses..all Quran will become a ritualistic guide. but instead if one see Salawat as divine laws/quran study/ponder in signs of Allah wich is the creation the Major sign things become easier..and brighter,
this issue of wuduu and cleaning to soil alweyes made me think..maybe because i took 10 years reading quran withouth mexing in masjids and also not with many muslims, things like hadith and bible are too hard to digest..too irracional like many of translations..
probably you already now this site but i let youhttp//www.aastana.com/URDU/default.asp roll the page down and you have 4books, all are good , but for this casa check truth about salat.
maybe not 100% correct but unleast more logical and beneficial for mankind.. instead of ritualsSAlaam keep going) peace
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Thanks Nomad,
The guy's taken words out of my mouth.
Stunning research.......
http//www.aastana.com/URDU/default.asp
Well said Dr Zamman.
There ought be a link to this website on the main page of Free-Minds.Org
I think. hmm
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Thanks Nomad,
The guy's taken words out of my mouth.
Stunning research.......
http//www.aastana.com/URDU/default.asp
Well said Dr Zamman.
There ought be a link to this website on the main page of Free-Minds.Org
I think. hmm
Stunning research in the sense it's so bad it's surprising someone wrote it?
http//www.scribd.com/doc/65842903/Critique-of-Dr-Qamar-Zaman-of-aastana-wudhu-ablution-verses -
Stunning research in the sense it's so bad it's surprising someone wrote it?
http//www.scribd.com/doc/65842903/Critique-of-Dr-Qamar-Zaman-of-aastana-wudhu-ablution-versesSorry waqas who ever wrote this against Dr Zammans research hasn't realy understand the points Dr Zamman was making - and you didn't check the counter argument did you? hypno
Lets have a look at the first point only to rubbish the whole counter product.
P69
?
3
rd
point - states
?
from the Root QWL and is used for routi
ne talking.??
whilst
I may agree, he seemingly neglects that in many places in AQ it says ?qul/say (rootQWL)...........insert statement here? which is part of AQ itself, thus if one were to saythese ?qul statements? in their ?namaz? (as he calls it) then they would be saying statements that are classified under ?qul? but in their ?namaz?
.
?Kindly note that routine talk is not allowed during Namaaz.?since he calls salat ?namaaz? here, it is hard to differentiate whether his statements are only applicable to what is commonly known as ?namaaz? or ?salat? also. I assume it only refers to?namaaz?. For example IF only applicable to ?namaaz? here then yes, there is no routine talk in?namaaz? as far as I know
(afaik). However, if he is implying routine talk is not allowed during salat,as per AQ, then he should provide Quran references etcAll Dr Zamman was saying (mind i don't have any contact to the man) - according to his explanation (and i bet you will agree) , is that saying "qul" in namaz when reciting the ayah's as part of the namaz doesn'at make sense - who would you be saying "qul-Say" to when reading the quranic ayah's as part of the namaz? so he was just rediculling the concept of reciting the ayah's with the "qul" in namaz.
The persons going against Dr zamman seemingly doesn't seem to realise what Dr Zamman is implying - rediculous.
So the counter argument doesn't hold much weight at all.
peace
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Sorry waqas who ever wrote this against Dr Zammans research hasn't realy understand the points Dr Zamman was making - and you didn't check the counter argument did you? hypno
Lets have a look at the first point only to rubbish the whole counter product.
All Dr Zamman was saying (mind i don't have any contact to the man) - according to his explanation (and i bet you will agree) , is that saying "qul" in namaz when reciting the ayah's as part of the namaz doesn'at make sense - who would you be saying "qul-Say" to when reading the quranic ayah's as part of the namaz? so he was just rediculling the concept of reciting the ayah's with the "qul" in namaz.
The persons going against Dr zamman seemingly doesn't seem to realise what Dr Zamman is implying - rediculous.
So the counter argument doesn't hold much weight at all.
peace
I wrote the critique.
Firstly, what you said is different to what QZ said, or rather, the reasoning/evidence QZ gives. If he meant what you said, then we should both agree that his conveying of this is rather poor. Granted, I believe the English is a translation of what he wrote, but still, poorly worded nonetheless.
And lastly, I find this statement of yours very telling "Lets have a look at the first point only to rubbish the whole counter product."
Your statement is illogical. Even if we assume the first point was a non-point, for sake of argument, that in no way renders the rest "rubbish".
I have noticed something about those who consider QZ's views credible, and that is they frequently make illogical arguments/statements.
Feel free to refute the rest of that critique ;D
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Well the second point in the counter argument;
"P70?5
Th point?claims ?came one of you from...? (i.e. from singular to plural) is a significant point but seemingly fails to consider that it may have been phrased this way to emphasise that going to the toilet (assuming we translate ?al ghaiti? as ?the toilet?) is a personal/individual/private act, not aplural activity (which may well have been relatively common in those days) etc.States
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Therefore, to emphatically say that, if one of you may return from lavatory, then you all may perform tayammam, definitely requires deliberation. At this point, certainly due to an act by one of the community members, the whole community is obliged to undertake some corrective
measure.?but conveniently neglects to mention that immediately after the singular ?al ghaiti? reference it
becomes plural, e.g. ?or you (plural) have touched the women? or ?and you (plural) could not find water?.It is a fact according to how i understand the ayah (do you understand it any different?) the ayah is talking to people in general and then simply says if one does such a thing then you must (all) do tayamum.
So the argument no way tarnsishes waht Dr Zamman has said.
The rest of the counter argument can be no different.............it is some one who does believe in namaz ( i think) and just trying to save the day with baseless arguments.
I think i will see Dr Zamman on my visit to Pakistan if i can - Great work he has done.
peace
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Peace all,
here is a well know book about the Origine of rituals in Islam by Gerald Hawting
for wudhu please check chapter 5
http//books.google.co.uk/books?id=oCvf76uT3wMC&pg=PA3&dq=eugen+mittwoch%2Brite+musulman&source=gbs_toc_s&cad=1&sig=scEmeMyvQJo0cOgUAPQcA42js30#v=onepage&q&f=falsepeace
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SAlaam to all
Thanks for link, jewish manipulations and old pagan myts of arabia (including hindu heritage like caaba sanscript writings that they dont show almost no one, the hair cutting as sacrament, and stone worshiping and circumbulating) and persia is the foundation of hadith full of herry potter and lord of rings magic,rituals and ego salvation.
i just wonder how meka and medina never get nothing in cience or knowledge compered to bagad or alandalus for exemple. yes i know.. they reduced ILM into colections of hadith and rituals, instead of getting knowledge from Quran and the Creation of The Creator and fully apply it.
anyway keep on searching and keep saying.how can we reduce Qurn rules almost to 1 surat full of rituals? strange.. doont make much sense to have holy monuments and holy rituals and holy holywood, holy prophet,holy month,holy food, its to saparete what Creator intended to be united..
So as jews and cristian alweyes said they were the favorites, now the Mohamedians do the same, everyone just forget that we follow the craddle of Ibrahim, hanif, never associate partnership with the One , be kind gentel and focus on objectives and actions with sincerety to full apply divine laws/comandments.. and not rituals, because 5 salat a day and rituals are not making muslim world better..peace handshake
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In the name of God, the most Gracious, the most Merciful
Peace NOMAD,
I agree, we must follow the monotheism religion which started with Abraham.
Believe in God alone and His system, the Hereafter and be good people.
Refrain from idol worship and serve Him alone. Many things can be idol worship, including your own ego.
What is being good people? Well the Quran certainly comes with good examples, but even without it we must just use our brains.
Unselfish, charitable, humble, patient, steadfast, those are among the traits making a righteous person.
To wash yourself and take off your shoes before contacting the most High, is not that more than right and a show of respect.
Postures of prayer everybody knows, even knowledgeable Christians and Jews. The people mentioned in the Bible prostrated, you can verify it yourselves.
Prostrating, like most of us Muslims do, may feel like the Stone age, but are we too proud to humiliate ourselves in front of the Creator?
May God guide us
