The creation of the heavens and the Earth

hawk99

Peace ,
Interesting... I agree fully with the time concept. One thing that confuses me about the verse quoted is what does "climb to" actually mean? And what may be the reasoning for so many years to climb to God - isn't God omnipresent?
Peace peace

Peace sushi1992,

The psyhics of time is hinted in the Quran.

All matters are controlled by Him from the heaven to the earth. To Him, the day is equivalent to one thousand of your years.

Shakir To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

We could also substistute ascend or travel or rise in place of climb. The point is that this distance
that is being described appears to be angels moving to a destination. Movement across and thru
the known universe for us takes a vast amount of time, comparatively 50,000 years from some other
perspective can be a day or even shorter.

God is Omnipresent.

To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.

It cannot be said that God is affected by time. That is still a hypothesis.

To GOD belongs the future of the heavens and the earth. As far as He is concerned, the end of the world (the Hour) is a blink of an eye away, or even closer. GOD is Omnipotent.

The one who possessed knowledge from the book said, "I can bring it to you in the blink of your eye." When he saw it settled in front of him, he said, "This is a blessing from my Lord, whereby He tests me, to show whether I am appreciative or unappreciative. Whoever is appreciative is appreciative for his own good, and if one turns unappreciative, then my Lord is in no need for him, Most Honorable."

Our commands are done within the blink of an eye.

Peace O0

Bender

Shalom Aleikhem,

Probably you missed my response

Salaam SoA,

Yes I missed it. Normally I never miss a post of you, as there is always some wisdom in your posts, but this time for some reason I missed it

O MY GOD !!

One could not be more mistaken.

It almost looks like I did some blasphemous statements on a God alone forum

You managed to misunderstand "scientific theory".

I only managed to misunderstand how you define scientific theory.

Now, before we begin, let me ensure you that I know that in everyday life, we use the word "theory" to propose an untested idea. But that is not how scientists use the word.
In science, an untested idea would be a "hypothesis".
We have scientific laws that we can check and confirm to be true. We have "facts" / confirmed observations. What we do then is come up with a hypothesis.
And test if our hypothesis is true.
When we can back the "hypothesis" up with observations/tests, then we are making it into a theory.

BLUE Thanks for the explanation, but I was not talking about "theory" in everyday life. I was talking about a scientific theory.
RED I do not agree. Every hypothesis is based on something. If it's not, then it can hardly be called a hypothesis imho but more a fantasy.
GREEN Probably I am misunderstanding you, but it looks like you are contradicting your red part.
ORANGE not test if it's "true", but test if it "holds".
PINK I agree

To keep it short, a scientific theory is the opposite of what you stated. It is the logical construct of all known facts, confirmed observations, laws of nature and guess what ? You can even test it. When you have a theory, it should make predictions which you can go and check if they are true. And for all scientific theories, they earned their title by proving that they are true.

RED Are you serious? You confuse "true" with "not refuted yet".

I guess you know very well what the history is of most scientific theories which were constructed of all known "facts" and confirmed with observations and laws of nature.

And by the way, your wild guess about how a theory is developed is WRONG.

FYI I am not wild guessing.

You are equating unproven hypothesis with scientific theory.

No.
Just for clarification, I was talking about theories in physics, chemestry, biology, archeology etc and not mathmatical theories (like group theory).

No, we do not simply bundle 10 unproven ideas and call it a scientific theory. That is another wrong assertion of yours. On top of that, all you need to disprove a given theory is to demonstrate that it did not work on one single occasion. Thats it. So, in no way can you compare that with "only counting the hits".

Who is "we"

You take my words in a wrong way and then try to proof me wrong.

Let me be very clear to you, there is not a single sientific theory which has been proven, there are only scientific theories which are not refuted (yet).
Not refuted does not mean it has been proven.

to say it in your words We take a bundle of 10 not yet refuted ideas and then call it a scientific theory.

Before you make a wrong assumption, with proof I do not mean the scientific proof, but a proof like in maths.

At this point, you are basically beating up a straw man, not Scientific Theory.

I could say something similair to you, just a bit different

Oh, and for the love of God, don't take it personally.

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

I did took it personal, now I am very >

Salaam,
Bender

ps even if a scientific theory holds and predicts everything correct till the end of times, it still does not mean that the theory is correct.

StopS

I only managed to misunderstand how you define scientific theory.

FYI I am not wild guessing.

ps even if a scientific theory holds and predicts everything correct till the end of times, it still does not mean that the theory is correct.

This was your statement to me
"As far as I know we have a theory which per definition is not proven, so we know nothing, we are just guessing on basis of this theory."

Are you guessing or not? You need to make up your mind.

Neither you or I have defined what a scientific theory is, so we are using the commonly accepted definition. Are you referring to a specific theory or is your usage of "a theory" just bad English?

Could you please provide the following before we get tangled up in misunderstandings

your definition of a scientific theory
a criterion that would prove gravity on this planet as being correct and proven (just to ascertain that the Theory of Gravity is based on guesswork, by definition)
a criterion that would falsify a scientific theory

I think this is reasonable and manageable.

inquisitivetrini

Salam everyone,

Y u no read articles I post about scientific theory definitions?! >(

hawk99

Peace inquisitivetrini,

Please share scientific theory definitions.

inquisitivetrini

Peace everyone,

Here's a link explaining the difference between a hypothesis, a theory, and a scientific law.
http//www.wilstar.com/theories.htm

Now StopS, you are right in this case. A scientific theory is a tested hypothesis that is generally accepted to be true. But let's go a bit deeper into the meaning of a scientific theory. I think this article draws it out nicely, even though it's talking about a different subject.

http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Excerpts from the article

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

So yes. A fact still has the possibility to be proven wrong. The same with a scientific theory.

A scientific theory is indeed NOT based on a hunch.

Peace and blessings.

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem Bender,

It almost looks like I did some blasphemous statements on a God alone forum

lol, yes, I confess, my statement was a bit dramatic.

I only managed to misunderstand how you define scientific theory.

Oh, in that case all you need to do is google. The scientific method is well known and documented. I would go with the mainstream to define that.

BLUE Thanks for the explanation, but I was not talking about "theory" in everyday life. I was talking about a scientific theory.

Well, it looked to me as if you were talking about guessworks at its best, not scientific theories.

RED I do not agree. Every hypothesis is based on something. If it's not, then it can hardly be called a hypothesis imho but more a fantasy.

Well, a hypothesis is like an educated guess. Ofcourse its based on something reasonable. You can't look at a phenomena and assert "a holy frog caused this" and then label it as a hypothesis. But, no matter how reasonable your educated guess/hypothesis is, you need to validate and verify it.

GREEN Probably I am misunderstanding you, but it looks like you are contradicting your red part.

Sorry, I do not agree. Let me start with quoting myself "We have scientific laws that we can check and confirm to be true. We have "facts" / confirmed observations. What we do then is come up with a hypothesis." So, you have the data, you know the facts, and then you try and explain these with a reasonable hypothesis. Mind you, just because you are using facts and observations does not make your "hypothesis" valid. Its like hearing a scream from the basement, you know that it was a girl's voice, and you found a girl's shoes just outside the door. Given those facts, you come up with a "hypothesis"/educated guess about who is in the basement. Lets say that your hypothesis is that its a girl, and my hypothesis is that its the TV that we left on. We then conduct a series of tests to back our hypothesis up.

I really don't see what is contradictory in that. The thing is, you don't stop with your hypothesis. That is not the last step.

ORANGE not test if it's "true", but test if it "holds".

lol, yes, true until you can prove it to be wrong.

RED Are you serious? You confuse "true" with "not refuted yet".

Yes I am serious. I will answer this in the later part of this post.

I guess you know very well what the history is of most scientific theories which were constructed of all known "facts" and confirmed with observations and laws of nature.

Thats no reason for resorting to something other than science. I don't know where you are going with this. Perhaps, you should open a separate thread to discuss specific theories which were built using facts and observations, using the scientific method. Then you could discuss it there.

Who is "we"

We = Us. People that investigate and make sense of the world around us using the scientific method.

You take my words in a wrong way and then try to proof me wrong.

Sorry if I ended up doing that. It wasnt my intention.

Let me be very clear to you, there is not a single sientific theory which has been proven, there are only scientific theories which are not refuted (yet).
Not refuted does not mean it has been proven.

to say it in your words We take a bundle of 10 not yet refuted ideas and then call it a scientific theory.

Before you make a wrong assumption, with proof I do not mean the scientific proof, but a proof like in maths.

ps even if a scientific theory holds and predicts everything correct till the end of times, it still does not mean that the theory is correct.

Well, I hate misleading play of words and concepts. Everything that we know can be wrong. I mean, you are a "man", male member of the human race. But how do we know that someday you will not wake up a female ? or an alligator ? or a car ? Even if you remain "you" till death, it does not prove that the "assumption" that you are you is true.

When I drop an object, it falls down, hits the floor. Its always the case, but I can not tell you that this will be happening till the end of time, or this is true and not an illusion. I have never witnessed water flowing uphill , its always from a high place to a low place. But I consider that to be true not because I can prove that this will be the case till the end of time.

But, that system of understanding the universe around me is not utilitarian and serves no use to humanity at all. That is why I resort to science. Because it "works". One could write for ages when it comes to the contribution of modern science to our civilization, and all that, is based on " holds until proven wrong". From the house that you are residing at this moment, the roads you use, the water you drink, the clothes you wear, medicine, transportation, agriculture, electricity, technology etc etc, we achieved all that based on "theories that hold until disproven".

I don't know about you, but I am proud of that, and I side with Scientific Method and Scientific theories. If you wanted to question the nature of truth itself, you can start by asking if you are real or not. And once again that model does not provide and have never given me anything.

Every idea, literally EVERY IDEA is a "not yet refuted" idea. That should not be a license for classifying all ideas as equals. For example, me believing that you are a "male" till I die is not something I would expect one to not take seriously and repeat, its only "holding ground until its disproven".

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

StopS

So yes. A fact still has the possibility to be proven wrong. The same with a scientific theory.

A scientific theory is indeed NOT based on a hunch.

Absolutely.

As it says at the bottom

Note, however, that although the prediction is useful, the theory does not absolutely prove that the next open container of broth will spoil. Thus it is said to be falsifiable. If anyone ever left a cup of broth open for days and it did not spoil, the theory would have to be modified.

Real scientific theories must be falsifiable. They must be capable of being modified based on new evidence. So-called "theories" based on religion, such as creationism or intelligent design are, therefore, not scientific theories. They can never be modified because they don't depend on new evidence, and they do not follow the scientific method.

This means that as soon as someone has proof that apples float up without any help we need to revisit gravity. But just voicing an opinion or personal preference will not work.

Bender

This was your statement to me
"As far as I know we have a theory which per definition is not proven, so we know nothing, we are just guessing on basis of this theory."

Are you guessing or not? You need to make up your mind.

Neither you or I have defined what a scientific theory is, so we are using the commonly accepted definition. Are you referring to a specific theory or is your usage of "a theory" just bad English?

Could you please provide the following before we get tangled up in misunderstandings

your definition of a scientific theory
a criterion that would prove gravity on this planet as being correct and proven (just to ascertain that the Theory of Gravity is based on guesswork, by definition)
a criterion that would falsify a scientific theory

I think this is reasonable and manageable.

Salaam StopS,

Please try first for yourself to find out where you are wrong on the red part before we continu on the blue part. If you can not figure that out then I am afraid that it will be a waste of my and your time.

Let me know when you are ready.

Salaam,
Bender

StopS

Salaam StopS,

Please try first for yourself to find out where you are wrong on the red part before we continu on the blue part. If you can not figure that out then I am afraid that it will be a waste of my and your time.

Let me know when you are ready.

Salaam,
Bender

ok

hawk99

I only saw this now in a reply by Sushi...

Are you sure about your point re time?
Isn't it that time is a constant?
What is changing is the variable speed. Time remains constant, whether we sleep or wait - it is the variable, our perception, which varies. The definition of day=1 rotation is a constant for many years. It does not change. The arbitrary division by humans is the variable, not time. GPS satellites adjust for speed differences using Einstein's equation of special relativity. Also, because they are several 1000s kms away we need to apply Einstein's general relativity theory to correct for the gravity curvature of space and time. All man-made.

Peace Stop S,

Yes, time is no longer believed to be constant. You may be confusing time with the speed of light
which is constant.

The Koran does not give us any technical definitions. The time span of 50000 or 1000 days just means a very long time. The sentence with the "climbing" mirrors the efforts of Haman, who was supposed to build a tower for humans to climb all the way to heaven.

No technical definitions are needed. Casual references are enough to conclude that the variances of day
are dependant on circumstances.

Peace O0

sushi1992

Peace sushi1992,

The psyhics of time is hinted in the Quran.

All matters are controlled by Him from the heaven to the earth. To Him, the day is equivalent to one thousand of your years.

Shakir To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

We could also substistute ascend or travel or rise in place of climb. The point is that this distance
that is being described appears to be angels moving to a destination. Movement across and thru
the known universe for us takes a vast amount of time, comparatively 50,000 years from some other
perspective can be a day or even shorter.

God is Omnipresent.

To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.

It cannot be said that God is affected by time. That is still a hypothesis.

To GOD belongs the future of the heavens and the earth. As far as He is concerned, the end of the world (the Hour) is a blink of an eye away, or even closer. GOD is Omnipotent.

The one who possessed knowledge from the book said, "I can bring it to you in the blink of your eye." When he saw it settled in front of him, he said, "This is a blessing from my Lord, whereby He tests me, to show whether I am appreciative or unappreciative. Whoever is appreciative is appreciative for his own good, and if one turns unappreciative, then my Lord is in no need for him, Most Honorable."

Our commands are done within the blink of an eye.

Peace O0

Peace hawkninetynine ),

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I understand the destination of the angels. If God is omnipresent, why does it take that many years to ascend to Him? Or is it referring to a different destination of some sort? Or God is omnipresent but it takes many years to ascend to God.. But then I feel I'm contradicting myself (... Please be humble to take your time to explain maybe once again if you could,

Much appreciated ), if anyone else wishes to point out what I'm missing I would really appreciate it ).

May God guide me to the truth and a better understanding of life ).

peace

StopS

Peace Stop S,

Yes, time is no longer believed to be constant. You may be confusing time with the speed of light which is constant.

Light can be slowed down.
Let's look at an extreme if you travel at the speed of light, would time around you appear to stop? Yes. Would clocks still tick? No. Time seems variable and seems to stop around you.
Would your body cells stop ageing? No, time for you and your continuum does not stop. Are you thinking of time dilation? So you need to define your frame of reference.

No technical definitions are needed. Casual references are enough to conclude that the variances of day are dependant on circumstances.

Peace O0

Why didn't you finish the argument?

No technical definitions are needed.
Casual references are enough to conclude that the variances of day are dependant on circumstances.
Because it is not a work of reference or science text book.

What you get are indications or hints, which mean a long time, a long distance, a great height, a lot of power, etc

What is comical is your claim that "It cannot be said that God is affected by time" and continue using time references belongs the future, end of the world (the Hour), blink of an eye, creation is measured in Earth days, the hereafter, eternally, etc

hawk99

Peace hawkninetynine ,
I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I understand the destination of the angels. If God is omnipresent, why does it take that many years to ascend to Him? Or is it referring to a different destination of some sort? Or God is omnipresent but it takes many years to ascend to God.. But then I feel I'm contradicting myself (... Please be humble to take your time to explain maybe once again if you could,
Much appreciated , if anyone else wishes to point out what I'm missing I would really appreciate it .
May God guide me to the truth and a better understanding of life .
peace

Peace sushi1992,

Like you I can only speculate since God did not find it necessary to give details.
Omnipresence appears to be the tripping point, so omnipresence needs further
investigation.

To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.

The best that I can come up with at the moment is this

When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer."

Obviously God talked to moses here on earth without a physical presence.

The actual "physical" presence of God cannot be withstood by our world.
On the other hand, verse is also true, so the means of God being
omnipresent must be carried out by what he created.

The distance traveled or ascended is relative.

may I borrow your saying?

May God guide me to the truth and a better understanding of life

Peace O0

hawk99

Why didn't you finish the argument?

No technical definitions are needed.
Casual references are enough to conclude that the variances of day are dependant on circumstances.
Because it is not a work of reference or science text book.

very good

What you get are indications or hints, which mean a long time, a long distance, a great height, a lot of power, etc

Please my friend do not speak for me I have enough trouble doing that myself.
What ayats and indicate to me is that time is relative.

What is comical is your claim that "It cannot be said that God is affected by time" and continue using time references belongs the future, end of the world (the Hour), blink of an eye, creation is measured in Earth days, the hereafter, eternally, etc

Glad to humor you, my understanding and your understanding of God differ So do not be surprised
that our attributes of God do not coincide.

Peace O0

StopS

Please my friend do not speak for me I have enough trouble doing that myself.
What ayats and indicate to me is that time is relative.

I would never do that. "What you get" is like saying the Koran says...
What happens if you read 2219, 443, 590, 1667? Is alcohol also relative?

Glad to humor you, my understanding and your understanding of God differ So do not be surprised that our attributes of God do not coincide.

Peace O0

Even if our understanding regarding a god differ, you need to decide whether time plays a role or not. You are contradicting yourself.

hawk99

I would never do that. "What you get" is like saying the Koran says...
What happens if you read 2219, 443, 590, 1667? Is alcohol also relative?

Alcohol relative? I know about alcoholic relatives but no I don't recall alcohol being part
of the theory of relativity.

Even if our understanding regarding a god differ, you need to decide whether time plays a role or not. You are contradicting yourself.

Disagree

I do not need to satisfy the unsatisfiable. I don't want to keep repeating myself.
We have different understandings regarding God, and I have no problem with that.

Peace O0

sushi1992

Peace sushi1992,

Like you I can only speculate since God did not find it necessary to give details.
Omnipresence appears to be the tripping point, so omnipresence needs further
investigation.

To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.

The best that I can come up with at the moment is this

When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer."

Obviously God talked to moses here on earth without a physical presence.

The actual "physical" presence of God cannot be withstood by our world.
On the other hand, verse is also true, so the means of God being
omnipresent must be carried out by what he created.

The distance traveled or ascended is relative.

may I borrow your saying?

May God guide me to the truth and a better understanding of life

Peace O0

Peace hawkninetynine ,

Please use my saying its a very good one in mo opinion . And regarding the omnipresence, I believe God is omnipresent everywhere however in terms of what is meant by these verses, it will require more study...

Peace peace

StopS

I believe God is omnipresent everywhere

If you believe god to be omnipresent, why or how is there a throne, a house or a being closer? Is god in hell?

inquisitivetrini

Peace StopS,

Why or how is there a throne?

2255 God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.

How is there a house?

There is no physical house www.free-minds.org/whats-name

The institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden includes a communication medium ("bayt&quot where people can safely and in tranquility hear what is forbidden so that they can obey it. That communication vehicle may be a physical place where people gather safely to hear what is forbidden and (hopefully) obeying it. However, the main objective is not the physical place in itself. The physical place is only a means for hearing (i.e. communicating) what is forbidden to people.

The house/"al-bayt"

The "masjid" and the "bayt" are not the same thing. As a result of giving the concepts of "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt" proper names not authorized by The God, those concepts have been used interchangeably by sectarians and if you ask them, they will not know the difference between those two distinct concepts. The "bayt" (house) is the way that people hear what is forbidden. The house of the forbidden can be considered the communication vehicle of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden. As such, it can be anywhere where people gather to safely hear and obey what is forbidden, and is not restricted to a certain physical location...

How is there a being closer?

5016 And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein.

If God is closer to you than your jugular vein, where are YOU?

Is god in hell?

Where is Hell? Is Hell actually physical? Did His throne extend to Hell as well?

Peace. yay