Am I still a Muslim?
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- The verse about flogging fornicators...
Traditionally islam has forgotten the whole thing about sura An-nur where this thing about fornicators comes and has given the stardom to the flogging of fornicators -when not stoning- but, if you go back to the Qur'an and read the whole thing, you will see that the gist of all those ayas is not punishing fornicators or adulterers, but shutting up and shaming gossipers, slanderers and defamers. No word too much is spent on adultery, but the tirade against slanderers, specially slanderers of women goes on. So what it amounts to is to tell the people, either you go outright and accuse and bring witnesses, no less than four, or you shut up your mouths, you filthy slanderers.
To have four witnesses to that act, as you know, if the actors do not want it so, is very very difficult, if at all possible, so you should look at what the Qur'an says and not be hypnotized by the flogging or whatever it is.
So if traditionally this thing has gone off tracks, it is not the Qur'an's fault but people's fault, as it happens usually with everything. Everything usually starts with great ideals and then there comes people who will spoil even the most fantastic and pure purposes and pursuits. That is why it is important that people change themselves, not that they change the book they read. When they change they will also change the book. Of course one thing may feed the other.
Hell.
Hell and paradise are temporary experiences, and I think that you basically take wrong the concept of punishment, which sounds a bit like vengeance, blind vengeance, like some psycotic needing to give vent to his own frustration. That is the idea I see you seem to get from the whole thing. I think you should get away from that conception.
There is no punishment-vengeance nor reward-patting on the shoulder. What there is is the law of Creation, whereby everything transforms and develops. If you overworry and gnaw at yourself, you very likely will end up having some stomach ailment or some cancer. If you are an evil person, willing to harm anybody for your pleasure, or to disregard any evil may befall others for your sake, you are filling yourself with spiritually toxic material. Well that toxic material will have to go away some way or other if you want to get whole, or not? So the Fire, spiritual fire will purify you,
Because, and that is very important, everything and everybody ultimately, as is repeatedly stated in the Qur'an will return to God, which is the only thing that exists, the only existence. We all, in sha Allah will purify, either the soft way in the stages of Paradise, or the hard way, in the stages of jahannam and when we are completly purified will be returned into God, whole purification is the end stage and the reabsorption into God. To God is our destiny. So no horrible revenge and irrational punishment but simply our way back. We come from God and we go back to God, as per Qur'an and as per every revealed religion, which, thorugh the Qur'an and our own understanding is the onlyone religion, the universal religion, revealed by God to prophets sent to every people.
Why did God do such a thing as make us come and then go back?
Well He is God and He wants to. When you are back to Him, ask Him. But while here, you just have to take and accept His explanations or have your own or not to have explanations. We are created out of His rahma, because He creates us out of Himself, like we are a dream of His. He dreams us. And like every dream, we are of the dreamer and do not existby ourselves save as long as the Dreamer wants to dream us.
On the whole, Assasino, I would tell you not to worry about believing or not believing, it is the same thing. We always believe something, even if we do not know what it is. As creatures that do not know everything, and nobody knows everything, those parts we do not know, we fill in with beliefs, consciously or unconsciously. Sometimes we tell ourselves consciously that we believe something, but in fact we may believe the opposite. All that is just mental coming and going and of no consequence. What is important is what is in the heart. If you are good to people and things; if your heart loves or hates or feels like doing some sacrifice for the sake of goodness. If you are caapble of helping things along or at least of retaining yourself when you would like to spoil them. That is your heart, and it is int he heart where Belief is and where you know God.
Do not worry, you will get there in your own time. Obviously you have tried and you are trying, so you will get it. No doubt about it, but in your own way. It does not matter if you cannot put any label on what you do or you become. Hearts can do without labels.
Best wishes and
Salaam
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my answer is based solely on my understanding. which isn't much to begin with. bear with me.
1.(Sex before marriage?)
I don't think sex before marriage is ok based on the verses you've quoted about lashing the fornicators/adulterer.in google translate the word is translated as Adulterer not fornicator but this need to be study more in depth.2.marriage with atheist? agnostic? muslim? in the end it all depends who that person is. for example you could marry an Atheist that doesn't like your beliefs and would prevent you from further teaching the child your views. being an atheist doesn't make a person open minded. nor does being in a muslim society makes a person muslim. Allah knows who and what we are.
angels? as in Gabriel?(Jibreel) I think any person that believes the Quran was sent down from Allah/Creator need to recognise the character Jibreel.
4.Prayer is for our own well being. Contact Allah. so he might reply.
- see my answer above regarding this issue. if it is the command of Allah then we must hear and obey. (this verse needs more reading maybe it does mean "fornicator" rather then "adulterer"
6.I think there is a verse in the Quran that forbids Jews from eating a certain kind of food because it was a punishment from Allah for what they used to do. similarly Allah has a reason to forbid us the eating of pork(maybe it is a test I don't know.. if a thing as simple as not eating a certain kind of animal should hinder a person from his or her deen then... ( )
7.Allah intervene?
it is easy for Allah, the splitting of the sea is as unbelievable to me as there is a giant floating ball of fire outside beaming energy rays to us. yes,I'm talking about the Sun. surely ONE that could create the universe and us humans.. the splitting of the sea would be nothing to Allah the Lord of the worlds.8.see answer number 7 above ^ "Be and it is"
it is the mercy of Allah that I could feel what I feel. in the Quran it is mentioned that Allah has decreed upon himself mercy. it his mercy that you feel this way and that you were not likened to that of pharaoh. Allah is the Most Merciful if you repent sincerely surely Allah would forgive you but if you turn your back then surely Allah has sent messengers and completed his favour upon mankind.
homosexuality?
Allah condemns homosexual relationships in the Quran. maybe a man could be attracted to another man but according to my understanding Allah has forbidden the relationship.- (why create humans in the first place?)
All knowledge is with Allah.
verse from chapter 2 verse 30 of the Quran
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
12.why did Allah have to create anything? it's a bit hard to answer this question.. even the angels probably don't know. Allah is free of needs. let's study the Quran more. you, me, and the whole of man. let's read.
13.I can't really give a complete answer on this if my memory serves me right Allah does not punish a people until the message has come to them and they reject it while they know. Allah sees everything even our deepest innermost thoughts truly Allah is the best of Judge.
I don't know let's try to understand the subject more Shirk is associating partners with Allah.- Allah has decreed Islam (submission as the deen of man)
2.people have taken an idol as their master/Lord while it can't do anything for them.. it can't give them nor can it punish them nor save them.
3.Allah sent a Messenger to the people. The messenger warns them. most of the people that reject the messengers in the Quran are either mocking or transgressing or an arrogant tyrant(Pharaoh) or even a people that knows that this is the truth yet they still cover.
- the punishment comes and those who heed the weather forecast about the upcoming hurricane managed to be save while others..
ultimately I would like to say that the examples that I've given is probably full of flaws.. I don't know if I should even reply to this thread.. I do urge you to read the Quran. I hope not to misled others.. so here's a link to Quran Corpus
http//corpus.quran.com/
it has over 7 different english translations I think it is a good site to learn.
http//zombierobots.net/wp-content/main/2011_03/Earth-vs-Sun.jpg
Peace. -
Peace lookitup.
I commend your answers.
You certainly did look things up. Yes indeed you did " lookitup".
Peace
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Dear Assassino,
I don't think it is for anyone to say whether you are Muslim or not. You believe what you believe and you disbelieve what you disbelieve. Having a label or coming under a category such as "Muslim", I think, is redundant to a large degree. Only He who disposes of all affairs knows what is truly in your heart.
I can't really help you with your queries. I hope, perhaps, someone can, and I wish you all the best.
May Allah subhaan'Allah wa ta'ala guide us all.
Salaam.
Perhaps. But I'd like to know if I'm a muslim according to the Quran, but I guess its far more difficult than in Sunni'sm/Shia'i where the slightest bits of criticism can take you out the fold of 'Islam'. And are labels really redundant? I think it depends on your environment and community. In the environment and community I've grown up in, calling yourself a muslim is top priority.
Most of your questions are about formal issues. In my experience you need to clarify for yourself
- do you need and appreciate spiritual assistance in this form?
I don't need it but it greatly helps in my understand of Quran Alone, and the debates are often good to read with good manners shown on all sides.
- does praying or feeling like you are connecting to a higher being bring emotional comfort?
If you asked me this 2 years ago, I would have said yes, praying salaah was my number one priority in which I felt like I was being dutiful to my religion, listening and communicating with Allah, and getting rid of any guilt from previous sins by making a dua after every prayer.
As a new Quran Alone muslim, I felt like prayer was the way to communicate to Allah, in which I would ask him to help me be a better and more successful person but due to previous doubts, this didn't last long and it wasn't long until I stopped praying and instead changed my interpretation of salaah. But now I feel nothing, I feel its a useless form of exercise to be quite honest and never pray, and I don't think I ever will now. Well, expect for when I pretend to pray the ritual Sunni prayer because I'm expected to...which is quite often.
If not, I would analyse the purpose of life and an afterlife and how you can consolidate the two.
I know the feeling and I've been sitting at my desk expecting a bolt of lightning to come down and hit me for thinking such doubtful thoughts. After all, it's called faith for a reason.Haha tell me about it. I've analysed the 'purpose' of life, and tbh I don't think there is any objective purpose in life. Instead, there are only subjective purposes...purposes we create for our selfs based on what we enjoy and love, in this life. I still remember from my early skeptic days as a Sunni where I considered God could punish me in this life for my indecent thoughts. I get nostalgic every time I think about it.
Peace Assassiono
Only You and your Lord can tackle all the points you mentioned.
Do you believe Qoran is the word of God? Do you value/believe and take what it says seriously?
To be quite frank, not really - it's hard to believe in a personal God let alone divine scripture now. I do however value many things the Quran states but at the same time I don't value a lot of what it says, for example, lashing adulterers/fornicators. Hence I cannot take it completely seriously. But I do acknowledge that it was far ahead of its time.
Do you believe it has all the answers? Do you believe its author is the one who helps you find these answers?
No.
Then wear your heart in your sleeves, put on your sincerity hat on, trust your creator completely and with honestly., show patience and perseverance and go find your answers from the Lord and Qoran .
Ignore all other sources from here or anywhere else. Even if you start again.Best of luck with a new journey. Implore your Lord to help you with each question.
See what happens.
Best of luck.Peace.
I have trusted Allah for the vast majority of my life. But I never received any satisfactory answers, one of the reasons of my lack of faith/disbelief.
Be a source of peace, safety and security - to be a muslim and be not a hypocrite.
Is this what the Quran says?
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Peace
I suggest learning about the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.html -
In the environment and community I've grown up in, calling yourself a muslim is top priority.
I don't know why I think you're from Birmingham. You must have the Birmingham vibe about you.
Well, being a "Quranist", you're probably not a "Muslim" anyway. Being classed in a group or category is only useful for societal purposes. To me, it serves no purpose in matters of faith which are directly between the individual and The Creator. What does it matter what label you have. Labels serve no purpose, and they only serve as much importance as you choose to give them. It matters only how you feel and how you act. I am sure there are people out there who have never heard of the Qur'an, but could, characteristically, be "Muslim", because of how they feel and act.
I don't know, dear Assassin, but it seems to me that perhaps you just need to go on your path and do some pondering. No one can dazzle you with "The Light". Some folk here have given you some good links. There are a couple, I personally am very dubious about, but I am not a censor and you need to find your own way. Anyhow, I hope you look into all of them, and have a ponder. But please don't forget to read the Qur'an-THAT is the source, after all and that is what must be given primary importance and be analysed. I am curious to know to what extent you have already read and studied the Qur'an. (Feel free to answer that. It is not a rhetorical question!)
Finally, be patient with yourself, be honest and search for "The Truth". Insh'Allah, it will come to you.
May God guide us all.
Salaam.
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Peace Assassino,
I was trying to make this short but I failed. (
I hope you don't mind. You may disregard this if it's too long and tedious or if I've posted too many links.
Peace inquisitive. And no, I never mind any long posts, in fact you've done me a favour by posting such a long and detailed response. Thank you.
In my opinion, this is very good. It means that you are questioning things and that you're sincerely looking for the truth. Keep seeking the truth and God will guide you.
Now on to my response. I've been seeking the 'truth' - whatever it is or whether such a thing as 'absolute truth' exists - for the majority of my life, if not my whole life. And I don't expect God to guide me anymore simply because of my lack of faith, so I try my best to guide my self without any outside help now.
When I started doubting Sunnism, it was because I read an article about the pagan origins of Islam and the author likened Allah to the devil and Muhammad as a satan worshipper. &
Since the archaeological facts he presented were correct (which I confirmed with several sources), it made it hard for me to believe that the Quran was a legitimate book and that Allah was indeed my creator. But despite my doubt, I continued to read the Quran always questioning and God showed me what was right. But man was I ever thankful that there are 99 attributes of God because I was reluctant to use the words "God" or "Allah" for about a month!I started doubting Sunnism for several reasons. Sharia punishments such as death for apostates and stoning adulterers to death, among many others, is why I initially starting doubting Sunnism - even though I used to accept these punishments (I guess indoctrination from an early age does that). After months, doubts grew bigger until I faced questions such as the ones I'm asking on this thread. But I can't describe how happy I was when I found Quran Only Islam, because it came without all the baggage that comes with Sunni Islam, and was a far more logical, open to interpretation and tolerant version of 'Islam'.
What's your definition of marriage?
As for my interpretation of marriage, I'm not too sure. I certainly don't think it involves any ritual, such as for example there needing to be 2 male witnesses or 3 female witnesses, the permission of a 'wali' to marry of his daughter or the permission of a sheik, an oath between the two people, and dowry for the bride - I don't believe in such rules and rituals when it comes to marriage. Now I don't know what the Quran Alone demands in a marriage, as many on this forum aren't in agreement with each other and I had never really made up my mind. Can a Muslim marry a polytheist or an atheist? If such rules exist then I don't really believe or follow them. The official definition of marriage is a formal union between two consenting adults, recognised by the state or law. I don't really think its that important anymore, if you don't follow a religion, as a married couple can live just as well as a non-married couple.
At first I disagreed with you, but then I really thought about it....you're right! Lol. Makes sense.
Yup. P
Root word for "Malaika" Miim-Lam-Kaf = to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority, king, kingdom.
Also Lam-Alif-Kaf = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards.
I don't see the word "angel" anywhere here.I guess I got caught up with Sunnism for a while. Yes, terms such as malaika, shaytaan etc, when translated properly are in direct contradiction with what ahadith and the consensus of the four schools of thought tell us.
I am also queasy about this verse. I think that this subject would be important as its own topic and I'm very interested to hear what people have to say about it.
I agree.
Oh, man. I know why pork is forbidden. Here's a short video about the cons of pork...from a Christian!
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqWoNamMiYoI remember watching that video on Pork a few months ago and believing him. But now that I think about it, a Christian Preacher trying to tell us the science of a Pig's digestive system seems kinda amusing. P
Pigs are omnivores, so they'll eat most things, and wild Pigs are no more dirty than their wild beaver cousins, meaning they aren't that dirty at all in the wild and help in maintaing a healthy environment (in the wild of course). More so, Pig's raised on a farm in a healthy environment that are taken care of are perfectly ok to eat, just incase anyone thinks Pigs are inherently dirty. When cooked properly, you can just about eat every type of meat.I dunno. I think that these things certainly need to be studied in more depth.
Certainly.
Red Why not? God is always keeping your body alive. He takes care of you when you sleep and He helps you wake. Think about it. How do you wake up? How do you breathe? He is there for you 24/7 because if he wasn't, then you wouldn't exist.
3942 God seizes the souls at the time of their death; and for those that have not died, during their sleep. He then keeps those that have been overtaken by death, and He sends the others back until a predetermined time. In that are signs for a people who will think.
Does God keep our body alive? Or the body functions as it was meant to if all the elements needed exist, such as oxygen, food and water. God doesn't keep us alive in space or underwater, humans do - by building the technology needed in order to survive in such places.
I think that if you knew the reason, there would be no purpose. But that's just my opinion. I think this question needs to be answered by God Himself, so keep your ears and your heart open for the answer.
Maybe, but then that begs the point. Why? None of this was ever needed in the first place as we would have had no purpose if we knew God's intentions. Though being a good person, and doing the things I love is good enough for me.
Well no wonder! Why did you stop investigating?
Hmm, I think I worded my self wrong. I used to question these things a lot, but after receiving no satisfactory answers for some time, I stopped caring and tried to focus on what the Quran says instead of wondering what God's plan is. Until now.
I'm not exactly sure what kind of a situation you're in, but at first glance I only see you questioning which, in my opinion, is quite healthy. I think there's a difference between rejection and inquiry. You could say my monthly phase was rejection - I kind of thought it was, too - but in the end I'm glad I questioned things. I'm glad because when I finally found the truth, my love for God became stronger than ever.
I hope you find the answers you need in life. Always keep seeking answers because if you give up, how will you ever find what you need?
I hope I've helped in some way, but you can always disregard my comment.
Peace and blessings. peace
Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.
As for the Prophets being in doubt, God showed them actual miracles. I've never witnessed a miracle, and I don't think they exist.
And I've been skeptical for a year now, nothing has changed except I've lost most of my faith. I don't think there exists such a thing as objective truth. Who knows?
As yes I'm always searching. My mind is like that, I'm always thinking even when I don't want to. You could call me a day dreamer. P
You have helped, as I now know not to get Quranic words mixed up with the Sunni interpretations such as maliaka. Keep up the long answers, I enjoy them, though they do take a long time responding to. ;D
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Welcome back Assasino ) Long time no see?
Hello Maha. It has been a long while, good to see you again. peace
Again I agree with you. I find atheist and agnostics to be generally far more tolerant, open-minded and civilized than religious people. Being orginally from Pakistan, being atheist (la-deen as they call it in urdu) is highely negative and I used to mock atheists along with my other pakistanis friends untill I start loosing faith in Sunnism and began to befriend atheists and I was utterly astonished by how good heartet some of them are.
We're both similar in this regard lol. I used to dislike atheists too, mainly because I hated their guts, and how they couldn't see that there must be a purpose to all of this. Interesting how opinions can change so quickly, huh.
I do have the same opinion as you, however I think every normal human prays - some openly by rituals and some without even realizing it.
Maybe, but the last time I made even a simple dua must have been months ago.
No I dont but I think flogging isnt ment to 'fornicators' but people who practice ZINA which is a sexually shameful act openly.
Your interpretation of zina is an open sexual act? Well, I've heard of this before and used to think this myself, but regardless the punishment is barbaric. A small prison sentence and/or a fine for an open sexual act is enough imo. No one should have to get flogged 100 times in public.
Here I disagree with you a bit, I thinj miracles DO happen, maybe a miracle happened to you without you realized it? Like the other day I was almost one second away of making an accident, but somehow the accident didnt happened.. miracle from God maybe? hmm
Not sure if I would class that as a miracle. If such a thing happened to me, I'd classify it as sheer luck and move on with my life.
Well I do think there is something after this life, otherwise our lives would just be without purpose? But what excately is after life - I dont know. I hope hell does exsist for evil people, maybe God is merciful because he punishes evil people who have made life a living hell for others? But then again, why did God create evil in the first place (
Our lives do have purpose, many don't realise it, or fail to grasp it IMO. I think hell as described in the Quran is a barbaric punishment for even the worst of people.
As long as a gay or lesbian doesnt harm anyone, I dont have any problems with them. However, I personally find same-sex intercourses highely disgusting yuck
I find same sex intercourse between men nasty...moving on.
my question is more, if God is merciful why did he created so much unfairness and evil? Just think about how all sociopaths and psychopaths can keep commiting evil towards innocent people. Why does God allow that? ( ( (
Exactly.
Because people who worship idols do much harm to their fellow humans. Just look at what sunnism has done by worshipping their scholars, they have killed so many innocent people, enslaved millions of people and keep their fellow believers in control.
Do they? Maybe so but anyone can be an idol. Christians today idolise Jesus but then again, most Christians today are very tolerant, at least in Europe. People idolise celebrities but you aren't harming anyone by doing so, though I do find this to be quite stupid.
How do you define higher power?
Whatever created the Universe and controls it? I'm not too sure...
Peace. peace
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- The verse about flogging fornicators...
Traditionally islam has forgotten the whole thing about sura An-nur where this thing about fornicators comes and has given the stardom to the flogging of fornicators -when not stoning- but, if you go back to the Qur'an and read the whole thing, you will see that the gist of all those ayas is not punishing fornicators or adulterers, but shutting up and shaming gossipers, slanderers and defamers. No word too much is spent on adultery, but the tirade against slanderers, specially slanderers of women goes on. So what it amounts to is to tell the people, either you go outright and accuse and bring witnesses, no less than four, or you shut up your mouths, you filthy slanderers.
To have four witnesses to that act, as you know, if the actors do not want it so, is very very difficult, if at all possible, so you should look at what the Qur'an says and not be hypnotized by the flogging or whatever it is.
So if traditionally this thing has gone off tracks, it is not the Qur'an's fault but people's fault, as it happens usually with everything. Everything usually starts with great ideals and then there comes people who will spoil even the most fantastic and pure purposes and pursuits. That is why it is important that people change themselves, not that they change the book they read. When they change they will also change the book. Of course one thing may feed the other.
I see where your coming from and I used to hold the same views. But in the end, I wondered why Allah couldn't just say in clear cut terms, that slandering, gossiping is one of the worst things a human can do, while not mentioning any 'flogging' punishment. And what happens if 4 witnesses are presented?
In any case, I agree, I need to go back and examine this further.
Hell.
Hell and paradise are temporary experiences, and I think that you basically take wrong the concept of punishment, which sounds a bit like vengeance, blind vengeance, like some psycotic needing to give vent to his own frustration. That is the idea I see you seem to get from the whole thing. I think you should get away from that conception.
There is no punishment-vengeance nor reward-patting on the shoulder. What there is is the law of Creation, whereby everything transforms and develops. If you overworry and gnaw at yourself, you very likely will end up having some stomach ailment or some cancer. If you are an evil person, willing to harm anybody for your pleasure, or to disregard any evil may befall others for your sake, you are filling yourself with spiritually toxic material. Well that toxic material will have to go away some way or other if you want to get whole, or not? So the Fire, spiritual fire will purify you,
Because, and that is very important, everything and everybody ultimately, as is repeatedly stated in the Qur'an will return to God, which is the only thing that exists, the only existence. We all, in sha Allah will purify, either the soft way in the stages of Paradise, or the hard way, in the stages of jahannam and when we are completly purified will be returned into God, whole purification is the end stage and the reabsorption into God. To God is our destiny. So no horrible revenge and irrational punishment but simply our way back. We come from God and we go back to God, as per Qur'an and as per every revealed religion, which, thorugh the Qur'an and our own understanding is the onlyone religion, the universal religion, revealed by God to prophets sent to every people.
Why did God do such a thing as make us come and then go back?
Well He is God and He wants to. When you are back to Him, ask Him. But while here, you just have to take and accept His explanations or have your own or not to have explanations. We are created out of His rahma, because He creates us out of Himself, like we are a dream of His. He dreams us. And like every dream, we are of the dreamer and do not existby ourselves save as long as the Dreamer wants to dream us.
In fact I used to believe something similar to this too. But in any case the question simply moved onto why God felt the need to do any of this in the first place. You say because God wanted to. I can't accept this because I need to know why God wanted to. By God wanting to create something, implies that he felt the desire to do something. God isn't supposed to feel human emotions is he, he's nothing like us and we can't come to terms with him. Am I making sense here? Anyways if there is a God, then we will find out one day.
On the whole, Assasino, I would tell you not to worry about believing or not believing, it is the same thing. We always believe something, even if we do not know what it is. As creatures that do not know everything, and nobody knows everything, those parts we do not know, we fill in with beliefs, consciously or unconsciously. Sometimes we tell ourselves consciously that we believe something, but in fact we may believe the opposite. All that is just mental coming and going and of no consequence. What is important is what is in the heart. If you are good to people and things; if your heart loves or hates or feels like doing some sacrifice for the sake of goodness. If you are caapble of helping things along or at least of retaining yourself when you would like to spoil them. That is your heart, and it is int he heart where Belief is and where you know God.
Do not worry, you will get there in your own time. Obviously you have tried and you are trying, so you will get it. No doubt about it, but in your own way. It does not matter if you cannot put any label on what you do or you become. Hearts can do without labels.
Best wishes and
Salaam
I found this beautiful and I completely agree. Thanks a lot.
Take care and salaam.
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In the environment and community I've grown up in, calling yourself a muslim is top priority.
I don't know why I think you're from Birmingham. You must have the Birmingham vibe about you.
Well, being a "Quranist", you're probably not a "Muslim" anyway. Being classed in a group or category is only useful for societal purposes. To me, it serves no purpose in matters of faith which are directly between the individual and The Creator. What does it matter what label you have. Labels serve no purpose, and they only serve as much importance as you choose to give them. It matters only how you feel and how you act. I am sure there are people out there who have never heard of the Qur'an, but could, characteristically, be "Muslim", because of how they feel and act.
I don't know, dear Assassin, but it seems to me that perhaps you just need to go on your path and do some pondering. No one can dazzle you with "The Light". Some folk here have given you some good links. There are a couple, I personally am very dubious about, but I am not a censor and you need to find your own way. Anyhow, I hope you look into all of them, and have a ponder. But please don't forget to read the Qur'an-THAT is the source, after all and that is what must be given primary importance and be analysed. I am curious to know to what extent you have already read and studied the Qur'an. (Feel free to answer that. It is not a rhetorical question!)
Finally, be patient with yourself, be honest and search for "The Truth". Insh'Allah, it will come to you.
May God guide us all.
Salaam.
Haha, no. I'm a London boy, have been all my life. What makes me have the Birmingham vibe? You a Bham woman?
And yeah I agree with you. On an individual level, labels don't matter to me. It matters a lot to others especially Sunni/Shia muslims for example; and I also hold similar views to you. I believe anyone could be a 'muslim', depending on their actions and not their belief however I'm not sure if this is what I want to believe compared to what the Quran actually demands.
As for the Quran, I've read it a few times, and studied the verses diligently on topics that I find most interesting, troubling or important. Such as the topics I've been bringing up in this thread.
I've been writing long answers for quite some time now and feel like I need a break.
However, in short, I disagree with nearly everything you said.
Dear Assassin,
Well done to you, trying to respond to everyone!
Haha lol, its not an easy job! muscle
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Yes, you sound like Mr. Muscle now!
London eh, you must be from Green Street or Middlesex, or somewhere as equally as dazzling.
Right, I can feel my muscles pulsating after this long workout.
Lol neither. Green Street dazzling? Nah, never liked the place for some reason. Care to answer my question about the Bham vibe thing?
Peace
I suggest learning about the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.htmlLooks like this got lost in the crowd. I've looked it up, and studied it for a while. Never have been a fan of this 'miracle', and I don't think anyone can truly claim that God exists 100%. I feel like those who do so are lying to themselves, in my opinion...
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Peace Assassino,
Thank you for replying!
And I don't expect God to guide me anymore simply because of my lack of faith, so I try my best to guide my self without any outside help now.
It's fine if you don't expect Him to. He's not looking for your expectations or approval to guide you.
As for my interpretation of marriage, I'm not too sure. I certainly don't think it involves any ritual.
Absolutely. Me neither.
Can a Muslim marry a polytheist or an atheist?
The verse says "believer for the believer and unbeliever for the unbeliever" so what's important is the state of mind. Many people will verbally say that they deny the existence of God, but their mentality and their hearts say otherwise.
Pigs are omnivores, so they'll eat most things, and wild Pigs are no more dirty than their wild beaver cousins, meaning they aren't that dirty at all in the wild and help in maintaing a healthy environment (in the wild of course). More so, Pig's raised on a farm in a healthy environment that are taken care of are perfectly ok to eat, just incase anyone thinks Pigs are inherently dirty. When cooked properly, you can just about eat every type of meat.
I would argue that the important part of that video was about how pigs process food and where the toxins go and how fast they digest things. If a beaver's digestive system is 4 hours, then I'll agree with you but until then... elektro
Does God keep our body alive? Or the body functions as it was meant to if all the elements needed exist, such as oxygen, food and water. God doesn't keep us alive in space or underwater, humans do - by building the technology needed in order to survive in such places.
I would argue that the body functions because of God. He also gave us brains to understand in which situations we'd stay alive.
Maybe, but then that begs the point. Why? None of this was ever needed in the first place as we would have had no purpose if we knew God's intentions.
Perhaps from your perspective it wasn't needed. God's perspective might be different. But that's only something He can answer.
Though being a good person, and doing the things I love is good enough for me.
Awesome! I think that's great.
I've never witnessed a miracle, and I don't think they exist.
Perhaps not.
And I've been skeptical for a year now, nothing has changed except I've lost most of my faith. I don't think there exists such a thing as objective truth. Who knows?
Since when did God want blind faith? And why don't you think objective truth exists?
Did a quick search of "objective truth" and found this article http//atheism.about.com/od/philosophyepistemology/a/ObjectiveTruth.htm
So I kind of see what you're saying, I think.
As yes I'm always searching. My mind is like that, I'm always thinking even when I don't want to. You could call me a day dreamer.
Aww. Lol. I am very similar.
You have helped, as I now know not to get Quranic words mixed up with the Sunni interpretations such as maliaka. Keep up the long answers, I enjoy them, though they do take a long time responding to. ;D
Thanks, bro. I'm glad I could help a little.
Peace and blessings! yay
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I reserve my right to remain silent on that particular topic.
Goodnight!
Ok, fine!
Goodnight, 230 am here, need some sleep...
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Hello,
Replies to questions # 1 - 9 in blue. These are my opinions and do not reflect the views of free-minds. Also, I haven't read all the other posts so what I say could be a repeat.Salam all.
I've been having a lot of doubts...about everything, not recently but since a year or so now. I thought I had found sanctuary in being a Quran Alone Muslim after I started doubting Sunnism. Some things I have belief in (or rather lack of) go in direct contradiction of Quranic/Islamic teaching, such as...
Pursuing the Truth is not a crime. You owe it to yourself to ask the hard questions. Truth is not determined by what supports our original conclusions, but by what appeals to logic and reason, through sincerity. There is no improvement without change )- I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
I have to ask, why especially "loving"? The ultimate reason why extra-martial relations are prohibited in Islam, no one knows, only Allah does. BUT from what is apparent to me, marriage protects family and children if executed properly. Love marriages have existed roughly from the 19th century and onwards. They are relatively new. This is a faulty paradigm
A. Marriage represents love
B. People are in relationships for love
C. Therefore a contract is not necessary to have sex
Marriage historically served a purpose, binding men and women to a contractual promise that if otherwise didn't exist, they could leave without a financial mess at their hands, and social stigma (motives for staying and working on the marriage - that's the reality). It is more pleasing to think that "a real loving couple" would not break up on a whim but they can and do, easily. Speaking as a female, I do not like the thought of a man leaving me after have relations with him. Some women can accomplish it, but in general, it is trickier for women to separate emotion from sex even those who have adapted to Western dating life. Marriage is a testament of commitment to the couple involved, the public, and to God. Maybe that stopped a while ago, but it ought to be that way. - If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
That depends. If your future spouse shared your values and beliefs, and wanted to pass them on to your children, would it be indoctrination then? For me personally, I might steer my kids in a certain direction but encourage them to think
for themselves. Many non-atheist, non-agnostics want to parent like this too. Hardline religious nuts are at the bottom of my list too. - I don't believe in angels.
According to the Qur'an, there is a Seen world and an Unseen World. If you find the spirit of the Book truthful, its only a matter of faith you believe in angels if you interpret the world "Mala'ikata" to mean angels. This is debated on Free-minds. You may want to use the search tool. - I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
Here's the lowdown, you might not currently, if doubts are shaking your belief considerably. What "prayer" actually consists of is also debated on this forum. For the sake of answering, I will say it is allotted communicating time with the Creator, for any of the following purposes asking for help and guidance, gaining peace, reading out of His Book. Prayer can incorporate motions like prostrating and bowing depending on the individual. Believers seeking to advance their faith benefit
from prayer, and desire it. - The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
I like huruf's post ) - I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily
live without it forever.
Not everything is so clear as to why it's forbidden. For example, it never occurred to me why usury was forbidden until I studied some economics. Interest creates debt, and debt enslaves people. The fractional reserve banking system is modern day enslavement. Everything Allah forbids can only do us harm. Pork meat is notorious for contain living parasites and microscopic worms. - Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't
believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
I know you are apprehensive of the revelations, but bear with me. You must postulate. Let's work from the premise that God existed, and he gave us the Qur'an. If God would send us messengers and books, he would intervene, and allow miracles, let alone CAN. God is most able of anything if he exists. Without omnipotence, God would make mistakes, and be in perpetual competition with other beings. The Universe would collapse into chaos. - Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
See above. - I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
Justice is mercy. Truly evil people exist in this world to such an extent they devise new creative methods to torture and kill human beings. Personally I find solace in Ultimate Judgment, where all the wrongs are righted. Whether hell is eternal
or not, any Divine punishment fits the crime. Eternal hell is an idea that troubles me I admit, especially for people who simply do not believe and do not harm others intentionally. Can I ask why you find Judgment day hard to believe?
Peace.
- I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
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Peace Assassino,
Salam all.
I've been having a lot of doubts...about everything, not recently but since a year or so now. I thought I had found sanctuary in being a Quran Alone Muslim after I started doubting Sunnism. Some things I have belief in (or rather lack of) go in direct contradiction of Quranic/Islamic teaching, such as...
- I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
Personally, I only see sex permissible within marriage as per the Quran.
Okay, and now I want to share my opinion with you. Now, I've actually held this view even prior to having come across the Quran. Having grown up witnessing teenage pregnancies, deadbeat dads, people contracting STDs right, left, and center, and a host of other problems; I came to the conclusion that sex within marriage would protect against these things to a large extent. Now, maybe that's a naive viewpoint, as all of the above can occur regardless. However, I have always assumed that responsible folks should be the ones getting married, and then their responsible selves can engage in responsible sex.
Another thing, I know that people can easily make verbal commitments to one another, but I feel that it's whole different ball game when their recognized as a commited couple having undertaken a oath in public. Something about public perception and having witnesses provides a greater protection against wrongdoing.
So, in a nut shell, it isn't enough to me when people merely profess their love and commitment prior to engaging in sex. I think it's equally important to have taken an oath and then to honor that oath. I see sex as something that comes with many responsibilities, and can lead to a great deal of consequences quite easily.
Now, if you are convinced that sex prior to marriage is perfectly okay given that the couple is in a loving, commited relationship, and you believe that God does not take any issue with this, then what does it matter what anyone else thinks?
Your relationship with God is a personal one, and only He knows as to where you stand.
- If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
Well, I don't blame you. I have some family members who claim to be atheists and agnostic, and they are truly humanitarians. You know that they genuinely love you and want to help you.
However, I have one friend who is marrying an atheist next year, and her situation is a little different. He doesn't like it when she talks about God, and she's a little worried that her kids may grow up to disbelieve like him. She's still going to marry him though, but I know the thought lingers in her mind. I just wish them the best, and hope they can work it out once the kids come along.
Now, in regard to the Quran, we're not to marry the idolators. Though, anyone can commit shirk. Even an atheist. Some people idolize pop culture, I know some people idolize modern medicine and science. Idoltry in itself is such a vast topic.
It's really up to you, though I don't think it makes you a nonmuslim, if you marry someone who does not believe.
Honestly, I'm unsure though.
3. I don't believe in angels.Okay.
4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.Again, I don't see how that could make you a nonmuslim or one that does not believe. There are many people that have come to that conclusion after reflecting on the Quran.
- The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
Yup, I think it's for real, and I think it serves a purpose. I started a thread in regard to this ( in the constitution section), where I demanded that the four witnesses come forth with some tangible proof. I think it is very easy for four people to get together, and make up a perfectly, believable story. However, there are some people who believe that four eyewitness testimonies are enough and would suffice. I think that there needs to be proof (such as pictures, video, pregnancy resulting from it, etc). We can't trust people so easily, and I believe that God expects us to utilize our intellect and extend this law further, so that we can be as just as possible.
I believe flogging has to do with shaming and punishing those who put their lewd acts on display. It's just a deterrence for pornography and other publically displayed sexual acts, in my opinion.
- I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
Yup, I wondered about this too. Well, from what I've read and seen, pork meat is very unhealthy and spoils very easily. I even read a study where some people who practiced cannibilism drew striking similarities between the taste and texture of pork and human flesh-meat. The last one scared me the most, but who really knows? I just abstain from it, and don't judge anyone who eats it.
It's up for you to decide.
- Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
I do believe in miracles. I find it interesting how you are questioning whether God even exists? "if God exists". Well, this is the only case where I'd question as to whether you're Muslim or not, because I think God needs be a part of that equation.
In regard to Moses parting the sea or whatever, well, I did not witness it so I'm not even sure how it went down. There are quite a few things from the past that I don't understand. I don't really think about it.
- Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
Well, it says that Jesus was created in the same manner as Adam. So, the question, how was Adam created? Honestly, this isn't something that I really think about often. I think the virgin birth aspect is something that is reiterated time and again within Catholicism. I know the sectarians also stress it. However, as a Quran only muslim, I don't really think about it. I just read the details that are quite obvious, and reflect over them. Whether Mary was a virgin at the time, I just feel like it's irrelevant to me.
- I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
Yes, Judgement Day is something that I whole-heartedly believe in. The world is a messed up place, and people are pretty terrible. Justice doesn't always get dished out on Earth, but justice needs to be served fairly at some point. God ensures that justice is served. Whether you've done an atom's worth of good, or an atom's worth of evil, you get what's yours. Honestly, with the way things are, thank God for a Day of Judgement. The details may appear to be gory, but they also appear as allegorical to me at times. Sometimes, I think Hell exists on this Earth, as well. Whatever it is, it's something that's beyond me. I can't understand it. I just try to focus in on the present and how I can better things for me as well as my community. I know that He is also the most Merciful, so we'll see what happens. Think about it, He's more merciful than the kindest, most forgiving human you've ever come across. Even His mercy is beyond our understanding.
- In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
Yup, I have my own opinion in regard to this. I don't believe that there are any verses in the Quran that advocate for persecution or violence against homosexuals. I treat them like I treat any other human being, and that's to always give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't feel like there is anything in the Quran that encourages me to discriminate, persecute, or mistreat them.
11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.Valid question in my opinion, I wonder about this as well. Of course, I've got no answer for you.
- Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
Again, I have no idea. I'm sure we all wonder about this. Will we ever know? I don't know.
- Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
Shirk is self-destructive behavior more than anything else, in my opinion. You idolize something and forget to think for yourself. You fall into a group-think attitude and become even capable of genocide and the worst kinds of oppression. God asks us to implore Him for guidance, and I've recieved some personal signs (that I don't want to talk about), in regard to life decisions. He wants us to think, reflect, and ask Him for the best guidance. Shirk gets in the way of that. See, God doesn't really need anything. However, when we commit shirk, we are not only are a danger to ourselves but we put others in harms way as well. Shirk to me is about making false assumptions, false admiration, and assigning infallibility to those constructs that are completely fallible at the drop of a hat.
We all get harmed in the end.
- I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
It happens.
These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?
I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...
I know how you feel. I wish I could be of more help. My only advise is to hold strong and not give up. Keep questioning and asking for signs from Him, and spend even a few minutes everyday reading the Quran, if you can.
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Peace lookitup.
I commend your answers.
You certainly did look things up. Yes indeed you did " lookitup".
Peace
thanks for your kind words. but I still have a lot of things to learn other then my usual studies. I need to learn the Quran & Haddiths completely before I could decide which path leads me straight.
may Peace be unto you too.
