Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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I had the impression that it must have something to do with that, since essentially broken plurals are group names, and group names in many languages tend to be3 feminine, but then there arises other questions which are may be even more puzzling. If nisaa' is a broken plural, aren't broken plural for people meant for masculine subjects? I mean the normal plural for women should be imra'at, or not? Also shouldn't the subjects also be in the singular? Because broken plurals are feminine but also concord in the singular. Either there is some concert on this or what it may turn out is a free for all, where anything can be anything. I do not think the Qur'an does that.
The use of nisaa' as a plural, where there is no singular from that same root continues to be an oddity, as it is an oddity that it should be a broken plural.
If we look at rajul-rijaal, it is weird that it comes from foot or leg, but still there is a singular and a plural. Not so with nisaa'.
Also puzzling is that we see that masculine in that sentence in 12.30, but it is weird, if being a broken plural it can be either feminine or masculine, that systematically it is feminine that is used in the Qur'an where nisaa' is concerned.
Also, is niswah really a broken plural? What kind of form or paradigm is that? If anything, it shows the shape of a feminine singular? Is there any other instance where a broken plural is made by adding a ta marbuta at the end and changing a hamza to waw.
The whole thing does not get less puzzling, and I must come back to my queery for a morphological study.
I do continue to have the feeling that the Qur'an is trying to teach us something important, but we are just too closed to let the light come in.
However, I am glad that we keep trying, even if for the moment we do not seem to get ahead. In sha' Allah we will get some fruit of this.
Salaam
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In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
Peace -- a few possibilities ...
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1230 should be consistent with 1231 and said (f/p) and 1251 said (f/p)
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Who is talking in 1230 -- Joseph, her husband, her kinsmen or NSWh ? in the town?
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Lastly how would one write -- "and said women his"?
1226 he said she sought to seduce me about myself and testified/witnessed witness from her family if it is his shirt torn from front so she speaks truth and he from the liars 1227 and if it is his shirt torn from back so she lied and he from the truthful 1228 so when he saw his shirt torn from back he said indeed it from your plot indeed your plot mighty 1229 Joseph turn away about this one and ask forgiveness for your guilt indeed you are from the sinners
1230 and said (m) NSWh ? in the town woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself hence infatuated her love indeed we surely see her in error clear 1231 so when she heard of scheming theirs (f/p) she sent for them (f/p) and she prepared for them a banquet and brought forth each one (f) from them (f/p) sikknan/a knife? and she said enter onto them (f/p) so when they saw him they admired him and cut hands theirs (f/p) and said (f/p) forbid to God not this one a mortal indeed this one only angel noble
1250 and said (m) the king bring me of him so when came to him the messenger he said return to your lord so ask him what of the al-NSWh ? the ones whom (f/p) cut hands theirs (f/p) indeed my Lord in plot theirs (f/p) Knowing 1251 he said what affair yours (f/p) when you sought to seduce Joseph about himself said (f/p) forbid to God not we know onto him from horrible she said woman the mighty now evident the truth indeed we sought to seduce him about himself and indeed he of from the truthful
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Salaam,
A quick note of an Arabic grammar rule and the use of feminine forms with Nisaa' and Niswatun. In fact, this question came up a while back in this thread concerning the use of the feminine word "wahidatun" in 4/3 and "sadiqaatiheen" in 4/4. I am attempting to not just address those two verses in particular but the rule in general which we see throughout The Quran and in The Arabic Language.
The words Nisaa/Niswatun are Collective Nouns and in Arabic collective nouns are treated as feminine gender. So a proper collective noun will take on the feminine plurals even when the collective noun itself is NOT inherently or intrisically feminine. They are treated as Grammatically feminine.
"Sadaqaatiheen" is obviously referring to the last mentioned collective noun which is An-Nisaa' which of course is the word directly before "sadaqaatiheen".
However, I'd like to remind everyone here that collective nouns (although inherently plural in subject) DO have plural forms as well and the rules governing them do change depending of if the plural is a broken plural or sound plural and if it the plural is masculine or feminine in form. As Huruf has been saying, research probably should be done to ascertain if Nisaa is a singular collective noun which has a plural form or if it is already the plural form of a collective noun. If it is already the plural form, which paradigm is it (broken or sound)? What I do know is that the root possibilities Huruf gave us all appear to be "irregular" root words to me which means that we will really have to put our heads together to narrow things down and pinpoint what this word really is grammatically.
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I tried to say something in simple manner regarding the cognitive process of understanding a written linguistic message.
Otherwise a simple thing, in relation to Qur'aan it starts seeming an old chemistry book, unfortunately. Here, many are scholarly disertations on concepts of Qur'aan without knowing or following the cognitive process.
an innate tendency to impress homo sapiens with intricate concepts suggest a lack of completion of its assumptions........
the depth of the standards prerequisites prior lies in competences vacuum which can raise understanding barriers to learning as well as its quality of JURISDICTION... understanding the importance constitute the norm... adjectives agree structure can not be denied or repressed -
an innate tendency to impress homo sapiens with intricate concepts suggest a lack of completion of its assumptions........
the depth of the standards prerequisites prior lies in competences vacuum which can raise understanding barriers to learning as well as its quality of JURISDICTION... understanding the importance constitute the norm... adjectives agree structure can not be denied or repressedrotfl rotfl rotfl I love it. D
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The words Nisaa/Niswatun are Collective Nouns and in Arabic collective nouns are treated as feminine gender. So a proper collective noun will take on the feminine plurals even when the collective noun itself is NOT inherently or intrisically feminine. They are treated as Grammatically feminine.
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Peace Damon,
Does this look to be correct in regard to broken and sound plurals?
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Sound plural where the singular form of the word remains 'sound' i.e. as it is. You just add the sign of the plural at the end of the singular word. For example muslim muslim-oona. The singular remains as it is in the plural form. This is similar to what we have in english of adding an 's' at the end of the word girl girl-s
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Broken plural where the singular form of the word does not remain the same - it gets broken. For example hajar the plural is hIjAArAH - see all the extra letters? Also qalb qUlOOb. You dont just simply add the sign of plural at the end of the singular form, rather the singular form is broken and does not remain the same at all. This is somewhat similar to the word knife in english, where the plural is not 'knifes' - but 'knives' - besides adding the 's' other changes were also made, that is changing the f into a v.
I googled this and found the above information at a Sunni site.
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Salaam Released,
That is correct. Also keep in mind that sound plurals will be masculine or feminine just like the broken plurals will be either masculine or feminine.
Did You Notice??!! Did you notice how the KINDS of plurals and their Method Of Development are spoken of and detailed through your search? Now did you come across any information saying that there is a another way plurals are formed other than sound and broken plurals? Did you come across any such information explaining that plurals are formed in another manner with different root words than the singular?
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There are 50+ verses clearly understood from context that nisaa is women and few verses not understood like below as to who can drop by to visit without asking permission which of course does not include any female strangers and limited to women related i.e. nisahinna/women theirs (f) likewise in 2431 not display adornment theirs (f) except what apparent from it except to list of male relatives or female relatives theirs (f) and not to any strangers who are female...
3355 not blame onto them (f) in fathers theirs (f) and not sons theirs (f) and not brothers theirs (f) and not sons brothers theirs (f) and not sons sisters theirs (f) and not nisahinna/women theirs (f) and not what possess right hands/trust theirs (f) and be mindful The God indeed The God He is over each a thing Witness
2431 and say to the believers (f) they should lower from their gaze and they should guard their chastity and not display adornment theirs (f) except what apparent from it and let them draw their covering over bosoms theirs (f) and not display adornment theirs (f) except to husbands theirs (f) or fathers theirs (f) or fathers husbands theirs (f) or sons theirs (f) or sons husbands theirs (f) or brothers theirs (f) or children brothers theirs (f) or children sisters theirs (f) or nisahinna (i.e. female relatives)/women theirs (f) or what possess right hands/trust theirs (f) or al-tabAyn the walkers behind not the ones the desire from al-rijal/the men or the young those who not aware on private the women and not beat with feet theirs (f) to know what they conceal from adornment theirs (f) and turn to The God all you the believers that you may prosper
Likewise in prior post using context it makes sense as "and said women his in the town" (i.e. either women relatives of her husband or even more kinsmen the testifier who where gossiping and later desired to seduce Joseph along with the wife)...
2118 and said (m) those who not who know ...
1413 and said (m) those who disbelieve ...
1635 and said (m) those who associating partners ...1226 he said she sought to seduce me about myself and testified/witnessed witness from her family if it is his shirt torn from front so she speaks truth and he from the liars 1227 and if it is his shirt torn from back so she lied and he from the truthful 1228 so when he saw his shirt torn from back he said indeed it from your plot indeed your plot mighty 1229 Joseph turn away about this one and ask forgiveness for your guilt indeed you are from the sinners
1230 and said (m) NSWh/women his (m) in the town woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself hence infatuated her love indeed we surely see her in error clear 1231 so when she heard of scheming theirs (f/p) she sent for them (f/p) and she prepared for them a banquet and brought forth each one (f) from them (f/p) sikknan/a knife? and she said enter onto them (f/p) so when they saw him they admired him and cut hands theirs (f/p) and said (f/p) forbid to God not this one a mortal indeed this one only angel noble
1250 and said (m) the king bring me of him so when came to him the messenger he said return to your lord so ask him what of the al-NSWh/the women his the ones whom (f/p) cut hands theirs (f/p) indeed my Lord in plot theirs (f/p) Knowing 1251 he said what affair yours (f/p) when you sought to seduce Joseph about himself said (f/p) forbid to God not we know onto him from horrible she said woman the mighty now evident the truth indeed we sought to seduce him about himself and indeed he of from the truthful
Peace
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Likewise in prior post using context it makes sense as "and said women his in the town" (i.e. either women relatives of her husband or even more kinsmen the testifier who where gossiping and later desired to seduce Joseph along with the wife)...
Salamun alaika,
Masculine Verb which is not suffixed with feminine marker is creating problem. Following word is certainly plural as is otherwise evident in the context. It is in nominative case and absolute state showing it indefinite. Because it is in nominative case, its role in the sentence is ONLY that of Subject of the preceding verb. No other role can be assigned to it. But an indefinite noun cannot be the subject of a verb unless specified. It needs an adjectival clause. the Prepositional Phrase with definite object noun relates to the elided adjective for the Subject noun.
The incident happened in the privacy of drawing room of the House of a Minister. Only few who were with the Minister had come to know about the incident. The noun is diminutive plural showing that few women of the City came to know about it and they talked about it rebuking the Wife of the Minister.
The Wife of the Minister heard about what these ladies were talking about her and she invited them for a dinner.
Does it leave an iota of confusion as to who said the preceeding words about this host lady?
Those scratched their hands.What does denote?
They were talked about once again
Pl note it is here definite with definite Article making it refer back to those .
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Peace everyone!
Here comes another long post from Inq. As usual. )
I'll answer the first question "Why would you want to have a word look as though it relates to women and mean something different?"
I have to try and answer this without coming off as racist or anti Arab. But the fact of the matter is that the Arabic Culture has alwasy been and is now a male centric, woman oppressing and male chauvinist culture. This is all to evident today right before our very eyes. A pretty good book to read which is quite an eye opener is The Arab Mind by Raphael Patai. This book pretty much confirmed for me what I had already realized just by dealings with and observations of Arabs. Again, I have to emphasize that I am in no way or fashion taking a jab at Arabs or their culture. I am merely pointing out the culture of oppression that exists among Arabs and how that culture made its way into the Arab Ideology of Islam. So to answer your question WHY they do this is because Arab men have always traditonally dominated Arab society and they have always had this thing where a woman "has her own place in society" and that place is always relegated away from the public eye, in the house, the kitchen and the bedroom. That's it!! That's their lot in life. It's not a lot, but it's their life.
And, in fact, women are seen with a negative connotation in every culture in the world nowadays. Even in Matriarchal societies like Papua New Guinea, women are seen as aggressive and emotional. It's quite the predicament.
The Quran came to mandate EQUAL RIGHTS and OPPORTUNITY for ALL HUMAN BEINGS....white, non white, Arab, Indian, African, male, female, young and old. The Quran was threatening to to totally turn on it's back the male centric Arab culture. It was threatening to give women rights and opportunities Arab men are uncomfortable with. The Ideology of The Quran (NOT the Religion of Islam) had the potential of reaching the hearts and minds of the masses who were yearning for the dismantling of the system of injustice and replace it with a system that is based on complete justice...
This section of your post (well, your entire post) was very well explained. When things like this are brought up, people tend to point fingers and say "you're being racist!" but I think it's important to focus on the what that you're saying and whether it is true or not. If we analyze the actions of particular groups of people in the world, will their actions be proving you right? Well, you've honestly answered that question already
We can begin by asking some questions and exercising our common sense.
Absolutely!
Anyway, although I said that I am not one for doing translations I guess I have no choice but to honor your request to a certain extant.
You certainly did not have to at all. We all have a choice in our actions. ;D
Yet, I thank you anyway for the work that you've done as a favor to me. I appreciate it.Your translation made sense and actually got me closer to answering some questions I have about other verses. It definitely added a new perspective on my views of the Quran. Something to study. sun
And concerning the fact that the word Nisa' is translated as "Women" in The Arabic Dictionaries, please read these words very carefully. I Live in the United States of America and here there is a word that is used for Black People and they call this word The *N word. Those on this forum who live in the U.S. know exactly what I am talking about.
This word has made its way into many, many. many dictionaries of American English. The definition that is given in these dictionaries is "A Derogatory Term Used For African Americans". But how many people here realize that this word is a relatively NEW WORD in the American Dictionary? How many people realize that this word Originally described a person (ANY person) as being Ignorant and Uncivilized? (see definition number two). This word started to be used by White People in America as slang term for Black people because Black people were called "Negroes" and this word Negroe comes from the Spanish and Portuguese word "Negro which means Black. Since this word sounded so much Like the *N word as well as the word "Niggard" (stingy, miserly, scrooge, etc.) they started to used a "Slang Term" strictly for Black People in America.
BUT anyone can be Niggardly (regardless of so called color or race) and anyone can be a *igger (again regardless of so-called color or race). But look up the *N word in the American English Dictionaries and it would NOT give the ORIGINAL MEANING of this word. In fact, it doesn't give a definition at all. It only says HOW this word is used and that's as an offensive term for Black People in America.
What is the significance of this information? Black People in America are regarded by those in power (White People) as being the Social Other. Women in Arab culture always has been and continues to be regarded by those in power (Men) as being the Social Other. The *N word has made its way into The American English Dictionaries within the span of only a Century. The Arabic Dictionaries and Culture had much, much longer to do the same with the word Nisaa'. Let's not kid ourselves. The Arabic language is much older than American English. Centuries Older. Arab Culture is much, much older than American Culture. Again, centuries older. If the American Dictionaries can pull of what they have concerning the *N word in a matter of only 100 years, how much better can The Arabs pull off their own *N word in a matter of centuries? They've have much more time to establish their own *N word than America has with hers.
Very, very, very good example! I always cringe when people say "This language is 1400 centuries old! Meanings don't change like that!" Obviously, a quick look at linguistics for many languages throughout history will show that, in fact, words can and do change. Rapidly. One cannot simply trust in a translation and believe that it means exactly what it's supposed to mean. That's the same thing as blind belief in my opinion.
Those who are defending the status quo of Nisaa' meaning women will completely dismiss everything I have said in this post. Those who are honest and willing to look at what I have said in this post and go "HHmmmmmmmm... hmm " will not immediately dismiss what I said and ponder on this situation.
Something we can witness clearly.
Peace all,
Inquisitivetrini, Dawn, Stop, anyone want to share their thoughts?
Peace Released,
I took so long to respond because I need to take things in slowly. Lol. I am learning new things about myself right now. I used to say that I am someone who learns quickly. But now that it incorrect. Looking back, I understand well and catch on well, but that does not mean that I have learned. All I've done throughout my life is listen to what someone has to say and either accept or reject it. If I reject it, I've never really pondered on why.
So when I read this post initially, and then read Damon's response to my question, I decided not to accept so readily as I usually would with many things pertaining to this topic. I decided to really think about why I was so ready to accept this idea - that verses containing "Nisa" could have been mistranslated. Well, in reality, this topic has been brought up before and I did reject it before, but that's because no one gave an explanation as to why a different translation is correct.
Now we have a very intelligent brother explaining himself and his thoughts pertaining to why "nisa=women" cannot be true. I needed to take some time to think about why it could be true and I needed to analyze some things for myself. When I started doing this these past couple of days, I realized I've never done this before! Lol. And I saw how much real time it took me to truly analyze things. So sorry I took so long to respond. I'm learning how to learn in my own way. School didn't teach me jack! Haha.
Peace to everyone and I apologize, once again, for an extremely long post. I hope I don't end up with a nickname or idiom. "Inq never runs out of ink! Argh!" brickwall
peace
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The Wife of the Minister heard about what these ladies were talking about her and she invited them for a dinner.
Does it leave an iota of confusion as to who said the preceeding words about this host lady?
Those scratched their hands.What does denote?
They were talked about once again
Pl note it is here definite with definite Article making it refer back to those .
Salaam -- thank you for clarification and of course when read in context it can only refer to women.
Now we have a very intelligent brother explaining himself and his thoughts pertaining to why "nisa=women" cannot be true. I needed to take some time to think about why it could be true and I needed to analyze some things for myself.
Peace -- have you analysed thoroughly each usage of the word within context and also cross-referenced all other words surrounding and their usage in the entire Qur'an to come to this conclusion?
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AnisaA%5E%27+pos%3An
Take your time it's only 50+ verses and not like translating the whole Qur'an.
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Peace inq
Peace everyone!
Here comes another long post from Inq. As usual.
And, in fact, women are seen with a negative connotation in every culture in the world nowadays. Even in Matriarchal societies like Papua New Guinea, women are seen as aggressive and emotional. It's quite the predicament.
This section of your post (well, your entire post) was very well explained. When things like this are brought up, people tend to point fingers and say "you're being racist!" but I think it's important to focus on the what that you're saying and whether it is true or not. If we analyze the actions of particular groups of people in the world, will their actions be proving you right? Well, you've honestly answered that question already
Absolutely!
You certainly did not have to at all. We all have a choice in our actions. ;D
Yet, I thank you anyway for the work that you've done as a favor to me. I appreciate it.Your translation made sense and actually got me closer to answering some questions I have about other verses. It definitely added a new perspective on my views of the Quran. Something to study. sun
Very, very, very good example! I always cringe when people say "This language is 1400 centuries old! Meanings don't change like that!" Obviously, a quick look at linguistics for many languages throughout history will show that, in fact, words can and do change. Rapidly. One cannot simply trust in a translation and believe that it means exactly what it's supposed to mean. That's the same thing as blind belief in my opinion.
Something we can witness clearly.
Peace Released,
I took so long to respond because I need to take things in slowly. Lol. I am learning new things about myself right now. I used to say that I am someone who learns quickly. But now that it incorrect. Looking back, I understand well and catch on well, but that does not mean that I have learned. All I've done throughout my life is listen to what someone has to say and either accept or reject it. If I reject it, I've never really pondered on why.
No worries
So when I read this post initially, and then read Damon's response to my question, I decided not to accept so readily as I usually would with many things pertaining to this topic. I decided to really think about why I was so ready to accept this idea - that verses containing "Nisa" could have been mistranslated. Well, in reality, this topic has been brought up before and I did reject it before, but that's because no one gave an explanation as to why a different translation is correct.
Now we have a very intelligent brother explaining himself and his thoughts pertaining to why "nisa=women" cannot be true. I needed to take some time to think about why it could be true and I needed to analyze some things for myself. When I started doing this these past couple of days, I realized I've never done this before! Lol. And I saw how much real time it took me to truly analyze things. So sorry I took so long to respond. I'm learning how to learn in my own way. School didn't teach me jack! Haha.
Sometimes I feel the same about school. I think I learned the most through work experience and life in general.
Peace to everyone and I apologize, once again, for an extremely long post. I hope I don't end up with a nickname or idiom. "Inq never runs out of ink! Argh!" brickwall
That inq never runs out of ink! haha. jk.
peace
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Damon,
The words Nisaa/Niswatun are Collective Nouns and in Arabic collective nouns are treated as feminine gender. So a proper collective noun will take on the feminine plurals even when the collective noun itself is NOT inherently or intrisically feminine. They are treated as Grammatically feminine.
Firstly, it would be nice to have a reference for the above.
Secondly, your statement seems to contradict what you argued for earlier and that was the doer of the singular masculine verb taaba in 43 is an-nisa. Which is it treated as masculine or feminine? Why is it masculine in 43 (according to you) and feminine everywhere else?
Lastly, in terms of collective nouns in Quran, are they all treated as feminine grammatically? e.g. qawm, ahli bayt, etc. I haven't researched it.
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Peace Damon,
Salaam Released,
That is correct. Also keep in mind that sound plurals will be masculine or feminine just like the broken plurals will be either masculine or feminine.
Did You Notice??!! Did you notice how the KINDS of plurals and their Method Of Development are spoken of and detailed through your search? Now did you come across any information saying that there is a another way plurals are formed other than sound and broken plurals? Did you come across any such information explaining that plurals are formed in another manner with different root words than the singular?
No, I have not found any other plural formation apart from the sound and broken that you mentioned. It would be a real anomoly if a plural was to be formed from a completely different singular...though it seems highly unlikely for words as commonplace as woman/women -\
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Peace Noon,
Salaam -- thank you for clarification and of course when read in context it can only refer to women.
Peace -- have you analysed thoroughly each usage of the word within context and also cross-referenced all other words surrounding and their usage in the entire Qur'an to come to this conclusion?
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AnisaA%5E%27+pos%3An
Take your time it's only 50+ verses and not like translating the whole Qur'an.
50 + is quite a bit. Plus, it's not just about fitting the word nisa in, the other words within the verses (and the surrounding verses) also need to be taken into consideration. It takes a really long time for one to even translate the Quran with the traditional understanding, imagine having to translate these verses with a completely different approach and mindset? I believe it's going to be a massive project that will take some time. I think these types of discussions are meant to get the wheels turning.
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Peace Noon,
50 + is quite a bit. Plus, it's not just about fitting the word nisa in, the other words within the verses (and the surrounding verses) also need to be taken into consideration. It takes a really long time for one to even translate the Quran with the traditional understanding, imagine having to translate these verses with a completely different approach and mindset? I believe it's going to be a massive project that will take some time. I think these types of discussions are meant to get the wheels turning.
Peace Released, then as with any problem simplify and start with this verse only 7 words which 6 are easy...
422 and not you marry whom married (polite translation) your fathers from al-nisaa/the women...
Lastly if one hasn't done an in depth study or in process of translating entire Qur'an and taking each word and checking for cross-reference and consistency they shouldn't state it cannot mean this or that and at same time offer no alternative meaning or a woman's bleeding menses are "war" or touching/marrying "weak/poor people" which in context are ridiculous.
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No, I have not found any other plural formation apart from the sound and broken that you mentioned. It would be a real anomoly if a plural was to be formed from a completely different singular...though it seems highly unlikely for words as commonplace as woman/women -\
My thoughts EXACTLY. D This is what I meant when I said earlier that the grammar books I have read lead me to the conclusion that sound and broken plurals (and the rules concerning how they are formed) are the only plurals and plural system in Arabic. Please read page 233 from William Wright's Grammar Book again. Notice that there are two important items missing. An explanation of a rule governing when, why and how this anomaly may occur and an explanation of which types of root words or which particular root words are subject to this anomaly. The grammar books explain what the deal is when it comes to irregular verbs so why not explain what the deal is with this so-called anomaly?
50 + is quite a bit. Plus, it's not just about fitting the word nisa in, the other words within the verses (and the surrounding verses) also need to be taken into consideration. It takes a really long time for one to even translate the Quran with the traditional understanding, imagine having to translate these verses with a completely different approach and mindset? I believe it's going to be a massive project that will take some time. I think these types of discussions are meant to get the wheels turning.
BINGO!!! D That was the best answer that could have been given. I think it is really sad that some people can make themselves believe that the verses with Nisaa in them are feminine context verses or have anything to do with wives or women. This is what we were fed by the traditionalists and some people obviously have a long way to go to purge themselves of Traditional Islamic teachings and beliefs. I suspect that most people are not willing to sweat and do the hard work of re-evaluating and re-examining all of the other words that are also included in the verses along with Nisaa. It is easier and less work to hold on to the traditional understanding.
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Wakas,
I thought I had made it clear to you earlier, but if I did not then I am making it clear now. The conversation between you and me is terminated. You have your way of viewing this topic and I have my way of viewing it. You're going to use what you use to believe what you believe and I am using what I use to bring me to my understanding. It is what it is. If you are that curious about what I said concerning the feminine use with Collective Nouns then go back to the beginning of this thread and read everything that I said very carefully. Take note of what I said and did not say and then go to the grammar books to research this topic yourself. And believe me when I tell you that I have absolutely no hard feelings about this at all. Like the Tupac Shakur song "I Ain't Mad At You". Continue with your program and I am continuing with mine.
