Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa

Shirley

Salaam Everybody,

It's nice to see that others have finally decided to join this discussion and help to move things along in bringing this topic to a logical conclusion. There will always be detractors to something like this. That is to be expected. No one here HAS TO agree with my arguments, point of views or conclusions, as long as they are sincerely "Looking At The Research" and are willing to take a second look at their present understanding of Nisaa'. I can always tell the difference between someone who is honest about it and someone who is satisified with their present position (and the status quo) and using slick language to make it appear that they are re-examining the present understanding of this word when in all actuality they're not.

Mazhar,

There is no difference in what you have stated here and my post describing what are the functions of Min.

Oh, there is PLENTY DIFFERENCE, one of them being that I actually typed my post myself in my own words instead of copying and pasting from a Grammar Book. Another difference is that I am insisting that in 4/3 is not a prepositional phrase because the particle is not used as a preposition in this phrase. I understand the particle to be a Partitive Particle in this instance. If it is YOUR UNDERSTANDING that a Partitive Particle is still the same thing as a Preposition then I guess I can understand why you are insisting that is a prepositional phrase. I disagree with it, but at least I know where you are coming from. It is my understanding that the proposition is not a prepositional or explanatory particle by default. It is my understanding that this word has to be used in a certain context in order for it to be understood as a preposition (and the phrase it appears in as a prepositional phrase). It is my understanding that a preposition by default refers to position, location, direction or geographical origin. It is like the English word "ON". This word is not a prepositon by default but can be used as a preposition if placed in the correct context. For example, "Turn the television ON" is not a prepositional sentence because the word "on" is not used as a preposition in this example. However, "The books are ON the table" does include a prepositional phrase since the word "on" is now used as a preposition in this example. It is used to show the LOCATION and POSITION of the books.

Now, ANOTHER DIFFERENCE is that I have pointed out the partitive use of the word in order to show how this USE of the word comes after the word in the clause that I have been trying to get you to look at and understand. It doesn't matter if you are uncomfortable with the term "Ma...Min Clause". What matters is that you study and understand the function itself. You and Wakas insist on asking me for another instance where Nisaa' is performing a masculine verb and Huruf has done that by pointing out 12/30 to you guys. But it seems that you two are ignoring that just as you have been ignoring everything else that has been pointed out to you in this thread and please don't think I don't know why you are ignoring/dismissing it. Anyway, the ... clause is real rather you like it or not and that clause HAS BEEN PUT TO USE in 4/3 rather you like it or not. I don't care if you reject it or dismiss it, I only care if you are able to refute it.

The question which you are continuously evading is whether the Noun after Min can be treated as Subject-doer of the preceding Verb? If not how AnNisa are the Subject of Taba?

First of all, we need to get something straight. I am not "evading" ANY of your questions. I don't like answering the SAME RIDICULOUS QUESTIONS more than once and this question is ANOTHER ridiculous one that I do not want to answer AGAIN!! The question is ridiculous because THE ANSWER is in those sections of the Grammar Books I requested for you to look at explaining this grammatical construct. And it is a repeated question because I had answered it the first time it was brought up. Just because you keep asking the same question doesn't mean my answer is going to change later on. My answer is the same now as it was before. READ THE GRAMMAR BOOKS Mazhar!!

Second question which you are evading is why definite article "Al" is prefixed to Nisa? This makes them particularized; definite and determined feminines? Who are they and where are they?

Not evading it, just another one that I am loathing having to answer. I agree with one thing you had said and that is the definite article "AL" makes An-Nisaa' particularized, definite and determined. This is just basic grammar. However, I DISAGREE with your forced arbitrary statement of feminines. I disagree with it for two reasons Reason 1) is that YOU are making the claim for everyone else that this word is feminine. This is YOUR WAY of dictating the MEANING of this word which you have NO AUTHORITY to do. You don't do so out of knowledge that you may have to prove your assertion, you are doing so based upon on a preconceived concept that you are attached to and is actually a BARRIER to you understanding the correct meaning of this word. Reason 2) is that evidence has been presnted to you to show that this word IS NOT feminine at all. It certainly isn't feminine in 3/14, 4/3 and 12/30. You have YET to grammatically refute these findings but you are STILL telling everyone else on this forum that this word is "feminine" WITHOUT proving that it is in fact feminine and WITHOUT disproving what I had showed to point out that it is not feminine. You really are amazing, you know that?

Lastly, I am NOT going to answer ANYMORE of your questions unless you show the willingness to ADDRESS THE GRAMMATICAL DETAILS I am pointing out in regards to 4/3. You are not linguistically and grammatically challenging my breakdown and re-examination of 4/3. You are only coming back with more questions which are connected to your prior questions..." how AnNisa are the Subject of Taba?" and "can the Noun after Min can be treated as Subject-doer of the preceding Verb?" are two such oft-repeated questions that only show that you are not READING what I am pointing out because if you did you would already have the answers to your questions.

Mazhar

Oh, there is PLENTY DIFFERENCE, one of them being that I actually typed my post myself in my own words instead of copying and pasting from a Grammar Book. Another difference is that I am insisting that in 4/3 is not a prepositional phrase because the particle is not used as a preposition in this phrase. I understand the particle to be a Partitive Particle in this instance. If it is YOUR UNDERSTANDING that a Partitive Particle is still the same thing as a Preposition then I guess I can understand why you are insisting that is a prepositional phrase. I disagree with it, but at least I know where you are coming from. It is my understanding that the proposition is not a prepositional or explanatory particle by default. It is my understanding that this word has to be used in a certain context in order for it to be understood as a preposition (and the phrase it appears in as a prepositional phrase). It is my understanding that a preposition by default refers to position, location, direction or geographical origin. It is like the English word "ON". This word is not a prepositon by default but can be used as a preposition if placed in the correct context. For example, "Turn the television ON" is not a prepositional sentence because the word "on" is not used as a preposition in this example. However, "The books are ON the table" does include a prepositional phrase since the word "on" is now used as a preposition in this example. It is used to show the LOCATION and POSITION of the books.

Peace Shirley,

That is the difference. You read from a book and reproduced not what is conveyed therein, but that which you perceived and thereby you think it is right. But you attribute it to grammar books.
If you read Arabic grammar books you will not find that ?Min? is given the name ?Partitive Particle?. ?Min? is placed in the category, called " " Genitive particles-Prepositions.
Learned Thackston did not say what you are attributing to him. He did not grant or coin name ?Partitive? for ?Min? which he knew as Preposition. He correctly stated, ?followed by partitive-min construction?. What he is saying is ?followed by a prepositional phrase where the preposition is functioning to describe a part of the whole-a subset of the set?. He is correctly saying in few words what is the original Arabic word in grammar for this type of use-function of Min which I quoted in my post; . When used for this function, easy way to determine is to put in its place.
For your convenience, I reproduce the classification of Particles and their names

" " Genitive particles;
" " Particles resembling a verb;
" " Appositive particles;
" " Particles of Notice;
" " Vocative Particles;
" " Particles of Reply
" " Extraneous Particles
" " Two particles of Clarification;
" " Particles of Masdar is a prepositional phrase. I disagree with it, but at least I know where you are coming from." Kindly enlighten me with one reference where someone says that Arabic language has in its vocabulary a Particle named "Partitive Particle". And kindly enlighten me with one reference where someone says that Min and its Object Noun is other than a Prepositional Phrase.

"On" is used as preposition, adverb and adjective.

thanks

Wakas

Damon,

"min" occurs in Quran about 3226 times
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3Amin+pos%3Ap

All you need to do is find 1 out of the 3226 which refutes what Mazhar claims. It is ok to reply "I haven't studied it, so I dont know".

You claim

You and Wakas insist on asking me for another instance where Nisaa' is performing a masculine verb and Huruf has done that by pointing out 12/30 to you guys.

Firstly, if you had read 1230 carefully, you'd know the word used is not "nisaa" but "niswatun". Secondly, you have failed to explain why a masculine verb is used in 43 (according to you) and not elsewhere etc for "nisa", unless your view is you dont know or Quran uses its words haphazardly so there is no reason. Either way, let us know. ;D

Mazhar

Now, ANOTHER DIFFERENCE is that I have pointed out the partitive use of the word in order to show how this USE of the word comes after the word in the clause that I have been trying to get you to look at and understand. It doesn't matter if you are uncomfortable with the term "Ma...Min Clause". What matters is that you study and understand the function itself. You and Wakas insist on asking me for another instance where Nisaa' is performing a masculine verb and Huruf has done that by pointing out 12/30 to you guys. But it seems that you two are ignoring that just as you have been ignoring everything else that has been pointed out to you in this thread and please don't think I don't know why you are ignoring/dismissing it. Anyway, the ... clause is real rather you like it or not and that clause HAS BEEN PUT TO USE in 4/3 rather you like it or not. I don't care if you reject it or dismiss it, I only care if you are able to refute it.

Peace Shirley,

Learned Thackston will feel disturbed if he is told that he caused confusion for one person Shirley, by his use of minimum words to convey an idea, like his words "Ma-------Min clause". However he did not say that "Ma------Min" is a clause. What he said was Ma followed by a Prepositional Phrase-Min and its Object Noun, and instead used one word for it as "clause".
Ma itself is an independent clause along with its Linkage clause, in a sentence, where its linkage clause is not ascribed any grammatical role. Kindly see a simple tutorial on The Types of http//www.learnarabiconline.com/types-of-maa.shtml

Thanks

Shirley

More of the same, it never ends.

Wakas, I'm still not discussing anything with you and that's that.

Mazhar, YOU are STILL not coming with a refutation of my UNDERSTANDING of 4/3 and how the grammar in that verse is used to overturn the Nisaa' Means Women belief. You are coming with more questions which means that you do not know as much of the grammar as you want people to believe. Instead of going around in circles it would be MUCH, MUCH SIMPLER to REFUTE and DISPROVE what I have presented to everyone concerning 4/3 and the grammar that is used in that verse. VERY SIMPLE!!!! It will eliminate anymore confusion and keep us from going in circles. SIMPLY DISPROVE AND REFUTE WHAT I HAVE PRESENTED REGARDING 4/3 AND IT'S GRAMMAR!!! This must be a very difficult thing for you to do or else you would have done it already.

By the way, I do have a question if you don't mind me asking. I did say in my last response to you that I know WHY 12/30 would be conveniently dismissed and ignored but I only read it from one person (the reason that is). Is this YOUR REASON as well? There is a reason I am asking this. If you don't want to answer it, that's fine. I'll just say what needs to be said about this verse anyway which will still show your lack of aptitude of defending your Position.

Sunnah-hero

Peace Wakas,

Two questions I have for you after reading through the new posts

You mentioned something about verse 1087 and the constant switching of verbs in relation to the beginning of Chapter 4. Can you explain this further? I am having difficulty understanding. Can you perhaps provide a side by side comparison?

Also, why do you think that "marry off" is a possibility? We discussed this in Fallen Angel's thread to an extent. Also, why does "nikah" ALWAYS have to pertain to marriage? From your perspective, why can't it simply be a contract of a different nature?

Nikah is a contract ............ even sunnis agree to that........... Nikah is a contract in regard to marriage it becomes a marriage contract and in regard to something else it becomes a different contract... ;D so no, i dont think nikah is always about marriage confused

Shirley

Mazhar, Salaam Alaikum,

Peace Shirley,

That is the difference. You read from a book and reproduced not what is conveyed therein, but that which you perceived and thereby you think it is right. But you attribute it to grammar books.
If you read Arabic grammar books you will not find that ?Min? is given the name ?Partitive Particle?. ?Min? is placed in the category, called " " Genitive particles-Prepositions.
Learned Thackston did not say what you are attributing to him. He did not grant or coin name ?Partitive? for ?Min? which he knew as Preposition. He correctly stated, ?followed by partitive-min construction?. What he is saying is ?followed by a prepositional phrase where the preposition is functioning to describe a part of the whole-a subset of the set?. He is correctly saying in few words what is the original Arabic word in grammar for this type of use-function of Min which I quoted in my post; . When used for this function, easy way to determine is to put in its place.
For your convenience, I reproduce the classification of Particles and their names

" " Genitive particles;
" " Particles resembling a verb;
" " Appositive particles;
" " Particles of Notice;
" " Vocative Particles;
" " Particles of Reply
" " Extraneous Particles
" " Two particles of Clarification;
" " Particles of Masdar is a prepositional phrase. I disagree with it, but at least I know where you are coming from." Kindly enlighten me with one reference where someone says that Arabic language has in its vocabulary a Particle named "Partitive Particle". And kindly enlighten me with one reference where someone says that Min and its Object Noun is other than a Prepositional Phrase.

"On" is used as preposition, adverb and adjective.

thanks

AND...

Peace Shirley,

Learned Thackston will feel disturbed if he is told that he caused confusion for one person Shirley, by his use of minimum words to convey an idea, like his words "Ma-------Min clause". However he did not say that "Ma------Min" is a clause. What he said was Ma followed by a Prepositional Phrase-Min and its Object Noun, and instead used one word for it as "clause".
Ma itself is an independent clause along with its Linkage clause, in a sentence, where its linkage clause is not ascribed any grammatical role. Kindly see a simple tutorial on The Types of http//www.learnarabiconline.com/types-of-maa.shtml

Thanks

Notice how in your grammar lessons you have NOT tackled my explanation of 4/3 AT ALL!! It wold be simpler and more to the point to just address that.

Thank You.

Mazhar

Mazhar, Salaam Alaikum,

AND...

Notice how in your grammar lessons you have NOT tackled my explanation of 4/3 AT ALL!! It wold be simpler and more to the point to just address that.

Thank You.

Salamun alaika,

I presume that the grammar lessons are agreed upon. Therefore, the issue is turned to the actual field to apply it on 43. It means you have not looked on the thread which I posted on the asking by learned Released to give the break up.
Kindly have a look. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604734.0
The aforementioned grammar lessons were necessary to first acquaint as to what a Preposition means, and about its governance powers.
As you know a Prepositional Phrase, whatever the language of text is, needs to be linked with some other element of the sentence.
At the moment I can tell you one thing that an Object Noun of a Preposition whether it is Min or Fee or others is NOT the Subject of a Active Voice Verb found anywhere in the sentence. Can you deny that "AnNisai-Kasra at end" is the Object Noun of Min.
Similarly a Preposition and its Object Noun is NEVER the Subject of a sentence nor its predicate.

Wakas

Damon,

Now you imply what you said about 43 has not been refuted/disproved, yet you ran away from responding to multiple points, some of which are here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604721.msg315351#msg315351

It is rather obvious what is going on, and you said it yourself that an alternative understanding such as yours requires significant research of Quran and this new research has largely not been done yet. This would explain your lack of answers.

My experience of discussing with those who have this alternative view has been the same. Not to worry, when you and your peeps finally come up with something solid and thorough, let us know. Until then, you can keep evading.

Mazhar

You are coming with more questions which means that you do not know as much of the grammar as you want people to believe.

Salamun alaika,

No dear, I wish not to make people believe that I know much about grammar. I am only emohasising that a non-native can never understand the perception conveyed in a text until and unless he knows the fundamentals of grammar of that language.

Shirley

Salaam Mazhar,

I did not agree upon your grammar lessons Mazhar, it was sarcasm and I thought you knew that. At any rate, I am making it CLEAR that what YOU ARE DOING is making this conversation go into an endless circle!!! At this rate, if I keep answering YOUR QUESTIONS about grammar (which you obviously fall short on) then you'll keep coming back with MORE QUESTIONS!! But you have Yet, and I am emphasizing YET, to dismantle my explanations or interpretations of 4/1 through 4/3. I re-iterated my argument point by point to Nadia. I have given MY understanding and rendition of 4/1 through 4/3 for Sister Inq Trini. I have posted additional information on how The Arabs refer to marriage and I have publicly posted links to grammar references for all to freely investigate without interference from me. I have addressed and shut down the grammar information this UQ person had posted and he himself/herself has not responded to that. But YOU YOURSELF have not approached ANY OF THIS in an effort to shoot down my arguments and prove me wrong. The ONLY THING you have down by way of a response to my arguments is claim that Thackston coined a term that is causing confusion or that I am misunderstanding what he (and I guess Haywood) is explaining about that construct. You keep going in circles asking me what is the difference between what I said concerning prepositions and what you said. Please address my points to Nadia and my understanding of 4/1 - 4/3 that I have done for Inq Trini!!! PLEASE!!!

As far as WHAT a preposition is and HOW a word is used to make it a preposition...I have explained my case and you have explained yours. Let the others read our respective arguments and decide for themselves and move on.

As far as the use of the ... construct...I have posted where I get this understanding from which you are obviously rejecting (without explaining WHY). Telling a person that they are misunderstanding the intent of the authors of the grammar books in question is NOT an explanation. But again, you have posted your objection to it just as I had posted my sources of that understanding. Again, I would rather let the people read those sections of the grammar books, compare them to what is written in 4/3 and decide for themselves and we can move on.

One more thing Mazhar,

I wish not to make people believe that I know much about grammar. I am only emohasising that a non-native can never understand the perception conveyed in a text until and unless he knows the fundamentals of grammar of that language.

Statements such as this is what can cause you to put your foot in your mouth. You really need to be careful about this. You, me and everyone else involved in this thread can arrange a Live Session where we mutually agree upon Arabic Newspapers and Books (with or without the haraka or tanween) to read in a "Live" situation to find out which one of us (between you and me) is not grounded in the fundamentals of Arabic Grammar. While we are at it, we can also "Talk" to see which of us can actually SPEAK Arabic. It is your choice if you wish to speak in FuSshaa or a dialect or BOTH!! We can go on Skype if you wish or the quran connection thingy (I think there is a voice activation function on that). My point is if you wish to make these kinds of statements towards me then I am asking that we arrange a live meeting to ascertain this for sure.

Thank You Kind Sir and Salaam.

Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.

"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.

I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."

Wakas

Salaam Mazhar,

Ultimately, it does not matter if you or Damon agree on what the grammar book says, so this may be a futile avenue to go down. You and I both know Quran has 3000+ examples of "min" being used. Damon simply needs to provide one to counter your claim.

We can leave it as an open challenge. The readers of the forum can make up their own minds etc.

Shirley

Salaam Mazhar,

THIS Is The Post that I am referring to about Zawaaj.

Thank You

Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.

"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.

I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."

huruf

I will start with morphology

nisaa' if from root n-s-' would be a singular or a plural,

If singular, similar to kitaab,

If plural, similar to rajul.

So, can anybody say which is it. Is it a singular or a plural. If it does come from n-s-hamza, which is it, a singular or a plural?

If a singular, what is the logical explanation. If a plural, where is the singular. And I do not mean in the sense of women, I mean in any sense, any word which might be the singular from which to form the broken plural.

Salaam

We have a singular for rijaal, which is rajul, where is or what is the nasu' word for the root n-s-'

Wakas

salaam released,

I forgot to reply to your mention of "marry-off" and "nikah".

"marry" V "marry-off" has been discussed on the forum before, a lot, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13534.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.0

Hence I allowed for that possibility when discussing options.

Sure, "nikah" can mean other than "marriage", see classical arabic dictionaries, however the ultimate criterion will be the Quran. It is fairly easy to check its occurrences via concordance. The following is an excerpt from concordance of quran by hanna e kassis (note it is OCR, i.e. machine read, and traditional translation)

*N K H

NAKAHA vb. (I) -to marry. (n.vb.) marriage

a) perf act.

422 (26) do not marry women that your fathers married
3349 (4 when you marry believing women and then divorce them before.you touch them

b) impf. act. (yankihu)
2221 (220) do not marry idolatresses, until they believe
2230 (230) she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband
2232 (232) do not debar them from marrying their husbands
422 (26) do not marry women that your fathers married
425 (29) any one of you who has not the affluence to be able to marry believing freewomen
4127 (126) women to whom you give not what is prescribed for them, and yet desire to marry
them
243 (3) the fornicator shall marry none but a fornicatress or an idolatress
243 (3) and the fornicatress - none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolator
3353 (53) it is not for you to hurt God's Messenger, neither to marry his wives after him
6010 (10) there is no fault in you to marry them when you have given them their wages

c) impv. (inkih)

43 (3) marry such Women as seem good to you" two, three, four
425 (29) so marry them, with their people's leave
f) n.vb. (nikah)
2235 (236) do not resolve on the knot of marriage until the book has reached its term
.2237 (23 they make iemission, or he makes remission in whose hand is the knot of marriage
46 (5) test well the orphans, until they. reach the age of marrying
2433 (33) let those who find not the means to marry be abstinent till God enriches them
2460 (59) such women as are past child-bearing and have no hope of marriage

ANKAHA vb. (IV)-to marry, to wed

b) impf. act. (yunkihu)
2221 (220) do not marry idolaters, until they believe
2827 (27) 1 desire to marry thee to one of these my two daughters
c) impv.' (ankih)
2432 (32) marry the spouseless among you, and your slaves and handmaidens that are righteous

ISTANKAHA vb. (X)-to take in marriage

b) impf. act. (yastankihu)
3350 (49) and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage

Feel free to insert "nikah" as something else in the above and aim for consistency, and see what results. You will note how Damon et al do not do such a thing, likely due to the major problems that will occur, yet claim "nikah" means something else.

Wakas

Salaam huruf,

I forgot to mention that I wrote about the word "zwj" previously, on Quran434.com showing that it is NOT the more correct term for "husband/wife"

And when you (plural) divorced (perfect verb) the women/nisa, then they reached their term/time, then do not prevent/hinder/constrain/straiten (plural) them (F) that they marry (F) their azwaj (M), when they mutually agreed/accepted between them with the kindness/fairness...

Simply put, one does not marry/nkh their husbands. You can read my notes at Quran434.com

If you feel nkh does not mean marry, then feel free to prove that also, as well as zwj being the more correct term for husband/wife etc.

Mazhar

Salamun alaika, Shirley

The issue is about these six words and I wish we restrict to it for the time being.

As we all know reading the text means to identify and know; (1) word; (2) phrase, (3) sentence.

Words

.........
Phrases

5 + 6 =
.......
Sentences

Its relationship with preceding sentennce needs determination because of particla Fa.

Firstly one has to agree or disagree whether above distribution is correct; then to put in front of each word as to what it is before moving to next phrases.

huruf

There was a mistake in the following message that I put, I rewrite it corrected underneath

I will start with morphology

nisaa' if from root n-s-' would be a singular or a plural?

If singular, it would have the same form as kitaab,

If plural, it would have the same form as rijaal, plural of rajul.

So, can anybody say which is it? Is it a singular or a plural? If it does come from n-s-', which is it, a singular or a plural?

If a singular, what is the logical explanation? If a plural, where is the singular? And I do not mean this in the sense of women, I mean it in any sense, any word which might be the singular from which to form the broken plural.

We have a singular for rijaal, which is rajul,

where is then or what is then the nasu' word for the root n-s-' which would be the equivalent of rajul as a singular.

rajul ----------- rijaal

nasu' (?)------ nisaa'

???

Salaam

Mazhar

Huruf,

I will be obliged if you kindly put the words in Arabic with vowels. Studying Arabic morphology without original Arabic words rather looks strange. This way you can better enlighten us with your knowledge of morphology.

Shirley

Salaam,

Mazhar, I'm afraid that's the last straw. I've wasted enough time with you Sir. Let me know if/when you decide to discuss Damon's Grammatical Explanation of 4/3 and His Grammar Sources! Salaam to you. peace

To Huruf, Released, Dawngorgeous and Inquisitivetrini, My Sincerest Apologies. I have allowed myself to get distracted and the last 5 or so pages of this thread were not very productive. I'm not going to blame others, I will blame myself for taking the bate over the last couple of pages. I have decided that I have to concentrate on the actual purpose of this thread and get back on topic. No more bickering since it has taken a lot of life out of this thread.

I would like to begin with the concern that Dawngorgeous had brought up earlier.

DAWNGORGEOUS,

I would like to briefly touch up on This Post that you made in that other thread which you brought to my attention

Is there another understanding for marry? Perhaps we are thinking too literally? No one has explained to me exactly how it would be fair to the orphans to marry their mothers? For example, just supposing a friend of mine male has two separate sets of orphans to look after. He is a good fair man and does what he is supposed to do regarding the orphans. He clothes them well, feeds them, etc. how would marrying both their mothers make it more just.

Before anyone suggests I'm trying to disprove polygamy, I am not. Like all of you, I am looking for a fair, happy society, as per the Koran. Unfortunately, I cannot engage in this discussion on a linguistic level so I am engaging on an ideas/intellectual level, which I believe is halal as the Koran invites us to ponder?!

This is very useful Dawn. To add to your questions, what about the Men who have sole custody of their children (for whatever reason)? WHY do I have to marry a woman in order to help her and her children? The financial output DOES NOT CHANGE if I marry her, it would still be the same, so what benefit would it be for her to marry me? If I am able to pay for her living expenses (food, rent/mortgage, utilities, transportation, spending money) without strain while not married to her WHAT REASON would their be for me to marry that woman unless it is my way of saying I'll take care of you financially, but you'll have to give me something in return.?

Anyway, Dawn Are you willing to rethink and re-examine the concept of Nikah meaning marriage? The word "Nikah" in it's basic definition simply means "Contract". But based on this definition as well as its usage in The Quran, I see it as a "Social Contract" meaning not simply a private contract between two people but rather a contract that is agreed upon by many people within the society and the purpose of this contract is for the overall benefit and betterment of the society.

Though I wish for this thread to remain on topic of AN-Nisaa' and 4/3 I feel as though it can possibly help this thread to expand on my earlier post about Zawaaj being marriage/matrimony instead if Nikah. After dealing with this, I want to briefly look at the root word and some ayaat from The Quran and then we can get back on track of examining the morphology of the word /

I would like to re-examine 33/49 to illustrate my point

Here is the traditional translation of this verse

O you who believe, if you marry the believing females, then divorce them before having intercourse with them, then there is no interim required of them. You shall compensate them, and let them go in an amicable manner.
(Free-Minds Translation)

The traditional translation would have you believe that this verse is talking about marriage and divorce in spite of of the fact that the word does not mean marriage in its original connotation and use just as does not mean divorce in its original connotation and use. Because a is a "Contract", the traditional Mufasireen took it upon themselves to give this word a new meaning which is Marriage Contract. But this is wrong because I know for an absolute certainty that the Arabic term for marriage contract (and what the Arabs use today) is 'aqd Al-Zawaaj] which they use for marriage contract and marriage certificate. I am aware of alternative terms such as 'Aqd Al-Quraan and 'Aqd Al-Nikaah but take note of how it is NOT the word Nikah on its own. Because "marriage contract" is a compound term then it would only make sense that it would be a joining of two words to signify it ('Aqd meaning a tying of a knot and Nikah for contract, hence a contract for "tying the knot" between a man and a woman).

I want to look at 33/49 word for word if I may. Please keep in mind my understanding of The Quran is that it is not a book of religion or rituals. It is not a book revealing yet another religion in which the man is superior over the woman. It is a book recommending and outlining a system and a constitution that will greatly better the society that implements its message. Like 4/3 I see 33/49 explaining a situation in which there is a "Social Contract" between people.

Oh You All, Those who
Those who have conviction and safeguard something (in our case, the Quranic Ideology and its establishment). It comes from the root word - AaMiNa
If
You have intermingled with or established relationships through contracts with. From the root word - NaKiHa which means to tie a knot, make a bond, connect one entity with another, establish a two way relationship.
The females who have conviction and seek security / safety (again, in this case The Quanic Ideology and its establishment). And again it comes from the root word - AaMiNa
Then
You RELEASE THEM / SET THEM FREE / SEND THEM OFF / SET LOOSE / LET GO / LEAVE / FORSAKE / DISCHARGE / REPUDIATE / UNDO / DISENGAGE / EMIT / DISPATCH THEM, ETC. THESE are the ORIGINAL definitions and connotation of the root word TtaLuQa. It doesn't originally mean "divorce". It means to set someone or something loose. It can mean to set some loose or send them away from your company or companionship. To release them in the sense of terminating your relationship with them. It can be applied to one spouse terminating the relationship with the other just as it can be applied to one man terminating his relationship or companionship with another man or his sister or his dog or his cousin or a co-worker at the job, etc.
Before (Literally "from before that&quot
You all had HURT or HARMED them. You all had TOUCHED THEM (their physical persons or their psyche) in a hurtful or harmful manner. Before you all INFRINGE upon them, do them wrong, handle them in an injurious or damaging manner. THIS is the real meaning of the word which comes from the root word MaSSa. One definition is to touch and this is the definition that the traditional translators use which is very, very senseless because one must know that it means to touch someone period. You can touch someone's hands. You can touch the top of their head. And it also means to "Be In Touch". To have mutual contact with another. It DOES NOT mean sexual touch or sexual contact. It is a simple touch, one as simple as a handshake or intertwining your fingers in a "pinky swear" manner or to even thumb wrestle with someone. So to go by the traditional translation of this verse, is saying if you married a woman and divorced her BEFORE you even so much as shook each others hand or sat next to each other with your shoulders touching or anything like that. Is this not just the most ridiculous thing? How many marriages have you ever heard of where two people married and divorced before having ANY skin to skin contact no matter how brief, slight and innocent? So, moving along...
So Not
For You All
Over Them (Them being )
Of
Numbered or Counted Period or Time. This word comes from the root 'Adda
That You Count Regarding Them. This comes from the same root as above.
So Supply Them Provisions or A Compensation or Grant Them That Which Will Make Them Happy and Enjoy Life. This comes from the root word MaTa3a
And Set Them At Liberty. The root of this word is SaRaHa which means To Move Away. To Roam Freely in the same manner that cattle freely graze. It also means to Freely Proceed. Please look up this word to understand it's difference from TaLuQa.
As A Graceful / Friendly / Courteous Discharge. is from the same root as the word above and - Jameelan ( from the root ) means beautiful and gracious, courteous, proper, appropriate, amiable and suitable.

So, putting it all together

"Oh You People Who Have Conviction and Safeguard. If you all establish Social Contracts with the females of Conviction who seek security / safety then let them go their own way before you have harmed them in some way, then it is not for you all that you all count or give a number to how long they have been safeguarded because of you. Supply them with the provisions that will allow them to enjoy their dignity intact and let them go in a gracious and friendly manner."

A couple of things I wish to explain about my rendition of this; It is my understanding that this verse is NOT about marriage but rather it is about situations in which females who have "Conviction" (Eemaan) in The Quranic Ideology/System AND are seeking safety and security from those who too have Firm Conviction (In the Quranic Ideology and System) and have been situated with people through a "Nikah". Sometimes certain people are not compatible with some other people and this Nikah would need to be rescinded or cancelled. This verse is telling those people who were at the "Giving" end of the contract to let the Momenaat go (and possibly find others with whom to establish this bond or contract OR to go out on her own) BEFORE doing or saying something that would be considered harmful. Harmful to , harmful to her self-esteem or dignity, harmful to him or herself and harmful to the overall Quranic Mission. This verse is setting the stage in the realization that sometimes these types of arrangements don't workout because we would have to intermingle the right people together. The Social Chemistry has to be conducive for this relationship and this verse is giving us fair notice that this may come about and if it does, relinquish the social bond BEFORE it gets so bad that you may end up doing something that would be considered harmful. AND... - DO NOT start counting how long or how many days, weeks, months or whatever that this arrangement was in place as a way of holding something over their heads or saying you want this back and you want that back, etc. Just provide them with whatever you can to make sure that the breakup is an amicable one and she has enough provisions to keep her from suffering after the ending of your arrangement with her.

Now, something that needs to be looked at is my rendering of as "Females who are seeking safety and security". Concerning the translation of "Females seeking Safety and Security" for I point everyone to 60/10 where the People Who have Attained Conviction are instructed to make room and provisions for those females who "MAKE A HIJRA TO THEM SEEKING ASYLUM". I add this to the fact that ONE OF THE DEFINTIONS of - AaMiNa (from which we get the word ) is to be SAFE and SECURE. It means to TRUST or HAVE CONFIDENCE in someone or something and to ASK FOR PROTECTION. Look at this definition and then look at the subject of in 60/10.

I will end this with a couple of logical, common sense questions. If this verse was about marriage and divorce as the traditionalists would have us believe, WHY is it only talking about marrying and divorcing women? Is this verse suggesting that women never want out of a marriage and seek a divorce? Or is it saying even if she does it doesn't matter because she has no say? Only the man can initiate a divorce if he wants one. She has no say, no rights, no voice. In that regard, please read the third paragraph (which is in bold print) below.

Salaam,
Damon.

Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.

"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.

I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."

Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa

Salaam, Damon.

Salaam,
Damon.