Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa

unknownuser

Shirley is a Girl...well, woman.

I Am Damon. I'm Shirley's husband. I have been posting using her account because I do not have an account here of my own and I see no point in having one. I used to years ago before everyone else involved in this thread had arrived here, the two exceptions being Wakas and Savage Carrot.

oh, I see....thanx for the clarification

huruf

Salaam Huruf,

I'm not sure which ayat you're thinking of but it seems to me like you are referencing 39/17-18.

Yes, that is the one, 39.18. Thanks, Damon,

I insist on this aya because I think it is very relevant for the undertaking of this thread.

Many people have extracted meanings from this or that understanding of this sensence or phrase or word from the honourable Qur'an. They may think that is the best that can be extract from those parts of the text. If honestly they think so and cannot see a better meaning, that is up to them, their honesty, sincerity and relationship with God.

On the other hand it is also legitimate that those who think that a better meaning can be had from the divine word, then they should strive to get at it. That is also a jihad. I do not think we can keep people from trying things because supposedly nobody tried them before them. Will they get what they expect? That is in God's hands. The jihad is the part of the human, the reward is the part of God. So if we strive to the best of our ability and with all honesty we are capable of, it is sure that we will get something out of the effort. It always happens when an exercise is undertaken and a sincere and thourough effort is deployed.

It is important also that those who "oppose" the undertaking be loyal and put forward their objection without arrogance and with loyalty and not wishing that they fail. Otherwise instead of a difference of points of view, what arises is a battle and the feeling that the failure of one is the victory of the other, which is really self-defeating for both. It should not come to that. If God had wanted us to be unanimous in everything He would have given us a Pope. Let us enjoy and thank for the freedom of mind and thought. There is no better gift.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

So are you saying that the word nisaa' is singular and also plural? Is that what you are saying? That is what I was asking. Not what it encompasses, because it is obvious that any group also encompasses the unit.

Salaam

Use context, no grammar standards back then; simply read verse, nisaa equates to any #of females any age...

411
so if are (f) nisaa above two (f)
falahunna/so for them (f) third dual (2/3) what left
and if kanat/she is (f) whidatan/one (f) so for her the half

This sentence covers all combinations of mixed siblings and nisaa cannot be anything other than females.

4176
and if they were siblings rijal wanisaa so to the male like share the two (females)
clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing

1 sister; 1 brother
1 sister; 2 brothers
1 sister; 3+ brothers

2 sisters; 1 brother
2 sisters; 2 brothers
2 sisters; 3+ brothers

3+ sisters; 1 brother
3+ sisters; 2 brothers
3+ sisters; 3+ brothers

Peace

Mazhar

so if are (f) nisaa above two (f)

Plural, subject noun is third person plural feminine that denotes three feminines and above. plural three and above women, is the predicate.

over and above two feminines . This is adjectival clause. In fact this is the succintness and delicacies of text of Qur'aan. Noon is right because of this adjectival descrition of the subject of deficient verb and its predicate that all ages stand covered while reference restricted to three or more feminine.

Shirley

Salaam Huruf,

Before we continue with the morphology of the word Nisaa', I would like to know if we are clear about the grammatical structure of 4/3 and how it shows that Nisaa' cannot be "women". Also, I am not a fan of the possibility that this word can mean women in some contexts but not others. I prefer consistency especially when this word doesn't represent the feminine gender and we do have the words that you have pointed out (Untha and Dhakar) for female and male as well as Imr'u and Imra'a for man and woman.

Also, Released, Dawngorgeous, Inquisitivetrini, I would LOOOOOOOOVE for you guys to join in and provide your own input. yes

Salaam,
Damon.

Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.

"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.

I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."

Mazhar

Before we continue with the morphology of the word Nisaa', I would like to know if we are clear about the grammatical structure of 4/3 and how it shows that Nisaa' cannot be "women".

starting from scratch

Interesting approach----start by placing the cart before the horse... rotfl rotfl bravo

huruf

Salaam, Damon,

Before we continue with the morphology of the word Nisaa', I would like to know if we are clear about the grammatical structure of 4/3 and how it shows that Nisaa' cannot be "women". Also, I am not a fan of the possibility that this word can mean women in some contexts but not others. I prefer consistency especially when this word doesn't represent the feminine gender and we do have the words that you have pointed out (Untha and Dhakar) for female and male as well as Imr'u and Imra'a for man and woman.

Right now, I am open to every possibility. One of them, that ayas may have different legitimate ways of approach depending on the context we may apply them to, or even our mental context. I think that the choice of words in the Qur'an is not random, but purposeful, and also that there may be different levels of meaning, and different applications dependent on context, textual context or real world context, since I also consider the honourable Qur'an a dynamic text. That is why I insist that it is upon us to give to what we read or hear the best possible meaning. It falls on the sincerity and iman of the person not to cheat on that nor to cheat him or herself.

As to 4.3, I hve read many times the aya and I have heard understandings of it by the dozens, and it seems to me that in fact nobody is clear as to its aims alication precisely and accurately and everything seems to be up for grabs. While its aim, protecting thos who need protection from abuse, injustice, etc. is clear, the "hows" seem to be a matter of imagination.

You did make a translation in this thread I think of 4.3. May be you can post it again, and we may go through it step by step. Right now there are so many pages of this that my head turns. Or you can give me a hint of where int he thread it is.

Also my feeling right now is that rajul-rijaal and nisaa' basically are sociological constructs and not properly sexes, but in some cases genders, because, when sex and not genders are considered, there are other words, like mu'minaat, azwaaj, etc.

You ask me to be clear or say something conclusive at this time, but I sincerely can't. It is too wide a field, as wide as the Qur'an itself, very complex. I have the impression that now we have barely began to scratch the surface, and I do not want to limit the possibilities it offers. I would like to keep the study as open as possible and not reject any fruitful venue of study, may it seem very odd or not.

My gut feeling is that the morphology of the whole thing and its genesis is fundamental.

For me, it is fundamental whether nisaa' comes from a-n-s, n-s-y, n-s-', nsw... or from a confluence of some or all of those. I know, for certain that it has no sex, though it may have attached some gender in some contexts, or offer at least that possibility.

Rajul-rijaal, also has no sex, but may have attached equally some gender in some contexts.

That is why I asked, amongst many other things, if nisaa' is a broken plural, what is its singular? In the same way that we have rajul-rijaal what do we have ....... -nisaa'? I am afraid I cannot feel commited to anything fixed without some more clarity on that. When did the words rajul-rijaal and nisaa' started to be aplied to genders? Because its basic meaning is not that. Like saying, for instance, 'the weaker sex' means nothing. It is a euphemism and a sociological term, not a biologocal or real sexual term, resting on a speculation of what may constitute weakness, which of course is completely subjective.

Also I had this question on Arabic grammar

For the feminine I mean, let us take the nisaa' word, as group name it concords in the feminine, were "her" components people of masculine gender or mixed gender, would it be gramatically correct to use the concordance of a feminine plural in the verbs and sentences of which they are the subject and the corresponding pronouns? Since in English there are no gramatical genders I can't give a good example, but the impression would be that all the components taken as a whole would be feminine grammatical gender, independently of what their grammatical gender might if they happenned isolatedly . I do not know whether I have made myself clear.

In principle, as I have said, I am open to every possibility that gives a good or best understanding of the ayas of the honourable Qur'an. Preserving a statu quo which is not just nor equitable is not for me the best understanding, or a good understanding, it is would rather be at this stage a perversion of the text. But I do want also solid ground on which to found a good understanding. I am confident that we, in sha' Allah, striving in good faith, can get to it.

So I would like to get on, if at all possible, with the morphological part,
and now that we have gone through a lot of back and forth, might be good to put again forth your translation of 4.3 and look at it thoroughly. We may get a better view of where exactly we find difficulties and why.

Thanks and salaam

Mazhar

That is why I asked, amongst many other things, if nisaa' is a broken plural, what is its singular?

And its Dual.
The grammatical numbers in Arabic are

Singular nouns that refer to one person or thing.

Dual nouns that refer to two persons or things.

Plural nouns that refer to more than two persons or things.

noshirk

salaam

according to this french article http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/12/23/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-8-polygamie-et-esclavage-chez-les-islamisto-paiens/
verse 4-3 is not speaking at all about polygamy.

it is all about charity. Muslims are only asked to help poors, orphans and concubines to get married by group of two, three or four and if not possible, only one or a women living in the status of concubine.
Malaket aymanoukom means "possesed by verbal promise" and not slaves.

All about charity, nothing to do with polygalmy and slavery.

Peace

Released

Peace Wakas,

Thanks for providing your explanations to me. Thanks also for providing links to the other threads. I'm going to read through them and if I should have any questions, then I will ask you at a later time, God willing.

Peace Huruf,

Thank you for starting the morphology discussion.

Peace Damon,

I also look forward to reading everything that you've written. I do understand the approach that Aastana is taking and look forward to one day reading their translation of the Quran, God willing.

I need to catch up on my reading in this thread, so I hope to contribute what little I know or have questions in regard to, God willing.

Peace Wael,

Thanks for your input as well.

Noon_waalqalami

I prefer consistency especially when this word doesn't represent the feminine gender and we do have the words that you have pointed out (Untha and Dhakar) for female and male as well as Imr'u and Imra'a for man and woman.

4176 and if were siblings rijal wanisa falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

43 and if you fear that not do justice in the orphans so marry what taba/agreeable to you from al-nisaa/the women paired/dual/twos and three and quadruplet so if you fear that not do justice so one (f) or what possess your right hands that minimum that not you oppress

Right now, I am open to every possibility.

Peace huruf -- this is very simple; please translate name of painting into Arabic (yes you too Shirley)?

"Three Arabian women"

http//images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/three-arabian-women--sunaina-serna-ahluwalia.jpg

huruf

4176 and if were siblings rijal wanisa falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

So, why do you think the text switches from rijaalan and nisaa' to dhakar and untha? Are there rijaal who are not dhakar and nisaa' who are not untha?

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

So, why do you think the text switches from rijaalan and nisaa' to dhakar and untha? Are there rijaal who are not dhakar and nisaa' who are not untha?

What, no translation of "three Arabian women" into Arabic?

The same reason if mixed children (i.e. males and females) and to clarify if mixed siblings.

411 directs you The God in your children
lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

4176... and if were ikh'watun/siblings rijlan wanisan
falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing

Peace

huruf

What, no translation of "three Arabian women" into Arabic?

The same reason if mixed children (i.e. males and females) and to clarify if mixed siblings.

411 directs you The God in your children
lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

4176... and if were ikh'watun/siblings rijlan wanisan
falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing

Peace

So why the switch in both ayas?

Are there then rijaal who are not dhakar and nisaa' who are not untha?

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

So why the switch in both ayas?

Are there then rijaal who are not dhakar and nisaa' who are not untha?

Switch is to express a consistent and clear 21 male to female distribution ratio.
Inaccurate lilrrijli/for the men like share im'ra-atni/two women

What about the distributions for non-adult females?
How else to write 21 male to female ratio any age?

What, no translation of "three Arabian women" into Arabic?

The same reason if mixed children (i.e. males and females) and to clarify if mixed siblings.

411 directs you The God in your children
lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)

4176... and if were ikh'watun/siblings rijlan wanisan
falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing

Peace

huruf

Switch is to express a consistent and clear 21 male to female distribution ratio.
Inaccurate lilrrijli/for the men like share im'ra-atni/two women

What about the distributions for non-adult females?
How else to write 21 male to female ratio any age?

THAT cannot be the reason, ABOLUTELY NOT.

If rijaal entailed a sex, then it is confusing to introduce a new concept. In the dhakar ALL males are included, ALL. In the untha ALL females are included, ALL.

If different terms are used it cannot be to make clearer something which by itself CANNOT BE CLEARER.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

THAT cannot be the reason, ABOLUTELY NOT.

If rijaal entailed a sex, then it is confusing to introduce a new concept. In the dhakar ALL males are included, ALL. In the untha ALL females are included, ALL.

If different terms are used it cannot be to make clearer something which by itself CANNOT BE CLEARER.

Salaam

That is absolutely the case and no better way to express a ratio to include all males and females.

21 male to female distribution ratio cannot be expressed correctly using rijlan wanisan.

Lastly, if you do complete study at the inheritance leaves no doubt that nisaa are feminine/women.

411 directs you The God in your children
lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
so if kunna/are (feminine plural) nisaa (feminine/women any age) above two (feminine)
falahunna/so for them (feminine plural) thulutha 2/3 what left
and if kanat/she is (feminine) widatan/one (feminine) so for her the half

In addition, the alternatives presented (rather brainstormed) thus far are absurd only show a lack careful study and when asked to insert explain their supposed counter meaning in other verses all Shirley did was rant about Wakas and others telling us how good his Arabic on Skype would be and refuses to tell us how he or you too huruf would say in Arabic the simple phrase "three Arabian women" -- end of conversation!

Peace

huruf

No, Noon, I don't know what you are answering, but you are not answering my question.

All males and females are already included ein dhakar and untha or their plurals, so again, why use rijaal and nisaa'. Dhakar and untha are quite sufficient and quite clear if what is meant is that precisely, males and females.

Salaam

Mazhar

No, Noon, I don't know what you are answering, but you are not answering my question.

All males and females are already included ein dhakar and untha or their plurals, so again, why use rijaal and nisaa'. Dhakar and untha are quite sufficient and quite clear if what is meant is that precisely, males and females.

Salaam

Noon did make the point quite explicit.

Nisaa ==women
untha===female

Women and female are two different words. Woman is a female adult. Equation is mentioned by gender-female and male to include all ages.

Released

Peace

All males and females are already included ein dhakar and untha or their plurals, so again, why use rijaal and nisaa'. Dhakar and untha are quite sufficient and quite clear if what is meant is that precisely, males and females.

Good question