Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa

Mazhar

Again Wakas, corpus quran or your friend Mazhar are not authorities and not my criteria of Quranic Arabic. If they are your go to guys for Arabic learning, more power to you. You wish not to accept that An-Nisaa' are the one's performing the verb Taaba EVEN THOUGH the verb Taaba is in the 3rd person while the imperatives "Ankeehoo", "Waatoo" and "kooluhoo" as well as the plural pronoun for "lakum" are all in the 2nd person. If I am wrong (and as a subjective and imperfect human being I can certainly be wrong) and you know how 2nd person pronouns can perform a 3rd person verb or vice versa, then please correct me. Question Are you DENYING the existence of this clause in the grammar book? In other words, is it your claim that this rule DOES NOT exist or is otherwise bogus? Yes or No? If No, I'll leave it alone. If yes, Can you show me a verse in The Quran where the 2nd person subject pronoun is performing a 3rd person verb?

Except the Elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted, NONE, yes NONE is authority about Arabic and Qur'aan in the entire time line.

However, a living language is never a problem for non natives to understand it and know its operative systems. The Verb in Arabic must match the Subject in number and gender if the subject is mentioned before the Verb. The Verb must match the gender when the subject follows it.

"Lakum" is a Prepositional Phrase. A prepositional phrase is NOT the subject of a Verb.

Since you have mentioned "Ankeehoo", it is Form-IV verb with verbal Noun and a transitive Verb. Some people take it as "Inkeehoo", which is form I with verbal Noun ,. The object of Verb, in both cases, therefore, would be none but "women".

Masculine plural Pronouns refer to males unless the text explains otherwise to include feminine in the group.

The Act in the Verb is and it means joining to two----
The Classic Arabic Lexicon- describes its meanings in these words;
( &#1576
(* ? ? .) .

The perception infolded therein is that of joining and combining in the manner of slumber dissolving in eyes, or as the drops of rain absorb in the Earth. This signifies the mutually consented Marriage-Bond, between a man and women, witnessed, endorsed and authenticated by the society, the third party to the agreement-union-bond. This "Union-Bond" grants permission, and renders sanctity of purity, in establishing particular matrimonial relationship, which is otherwise not permissible, and is a grave sin if done by a man and woman without the Union-Bond. Like the effect of basic perception of the Root, the romantic look in the eyes caused by gradual dissolving of slumber therein and inciting odor emerging by the absorption of earlier drops of rain on dried land, the Marriage-Bond, , results in romantic attachment between a man and woman, culminating in intercourse. However, there might be situation and a newly wed couple amongst whom this romantic attachment might not be possible, for compelling reasons, may be physical or ideological.
The Grand Qur'aan is a guide that contains instructions and options available to human beings for meeting all situations that might arise during their life. In case the romantic attachment cannot be developed after the recourse is divorce.

Wakas

Damon,

Let's tackle this one point at a time

Damon's view the ones doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 are "an-nisa".
Wakas' view the one doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 is most likely the one determining suitablity/pleasing

There can only be a few possibilities
the one determining suitability/pleasing (for nikah)
the people
the yateem
the nisa
or some other option

I think this request of yours is reasonable "how 2nd person pronouns can perform a 3rd person verb or vice versa" - I haven't studied it, but we can look to Quran for examples or explanations. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.

I also asked a reasonable request of you which was "If Quran is your ultimate criterion, if you know of an example in it wherein the one doing a masculine singular verb is "an-nisa" please bring it forth." - again, we can look to Quran to see if it has such examples. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.

This may require input from others, as it does not seem to be a run of the mill construction.

Mazhar

Let's tackle this one point at a time

Damon's view the ones doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 are "an-nisa".
Wakas' view the one doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 is most likely the one determining suitablity/pleasing

But where is the word "an-nisa" either before the verb or after the verb, whereby one could presume them to be the subject of this verb?

The subject of the verb is always definite, well known entity, specifically mentioned.

Hoppean

Damon's view the ones doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 are "an-nisa".
Wakas' view the one doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 is most likely the one determining suitablity/pleasing

There can only be a few possibilities
the one determining suitability/pleasing (for nikah)
the people
the yateem
the nisa
or some other option

I always read the subject of "taba" to be the numbers 2, 3 or 4; while the object to be "ye" (lakum). So that it reads "Marry ye what it is pleasing to ye, from an nisaa, two three, or four". Thus, whichever of the numbers (2,3 or 4) is pleasing to ye (taba lakum), then marry (or marry off). I deduce this from the use of the preposition "ma" which is not used for rational beings, and therefore would not refer to "an nisaa", but would refer to the numbers cited.

I think this request of yours is reasonable "how 2nd person pronouns can perform a 3rd person verb or vice versa" - I haven't studied it, but we can look to Quran for examples or explanations. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.

This is resolved, I believe, if one sees "ma taba lakum" (that which is pleasing to ye) to be referring to the numbers, and not to an nisaa. Again Whichever number (2,3 or4) pleases ye, from an nisaa, then marry (or marry off).

I also asked a reasonable request of you which was "If Quran is your ultimate criterion, if you know of an example in it wherein the one doing a masculine singular verb is "an-nisa" please bring it forth." - again, we can look to Quran to see if it has such examples. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.

Would something similar be 517? "Certainly, kafara (3rd p. msc sing.) allathina (those who, a plural) saying Truly, God is Christ...."

Here the subject of kafara is the saying, not the people (allathina), where the object is implied (i.e. the truth/God etc). In other words "Certainly the saying "God is Christ..." is "kafara" (denial/suppresion of the truth). Meanwhile, "allathina qaloo" (those who are saying) are the instrument of this "kafara", and not its subject. Otherwise, we have a plural subject and a singular verb. There could be another grammatical explanation for this, though; as I think this type of construction is not unusual, in the Quran. That is "allathina" followed by 3rd p. masc. sing. verb.

I would also like to say that I too did not see in those grammar books cited what "Shirley" claimed. That is, I did not see those grammarians stating that if the subject of the pronoun is all male, it must be previously stated explicitly.

Bob

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the menstruation from nisakum/feminine yours if you doubt so their waiting period three cycles and the ones (f) not menstruated and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads/give birth and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier

? The verse 2- 122 and above verse has a word , it is and the paradigm is . The meaning of the word can not be MENSTRUATION , The word for MENSTRAUTION is (If Allah tried to say menstruation, then why instead of the word is used?)

Also keep in mind this is a proper noun, ALMUKHAIZ, -how many different kind of menstruations does it exists, since Allah had to point out a specific kind of menstruation, THE MUKHAIZ, AL MUKHAIZ?

Here one can see it is khaiz and Al khaiz for menstruation and not mukhaiz or almukhaiz.

http//mymemory.translated.net/t/English/Arabic/menstruation

different forms of the word, menstrual ?= khaizi NOT makhaizi

http//en.bab.la/dictionary/english-arabic/menstrual

wonder if Khaiz is even mentioned in the Quran?

Tthe word means the place or the time or the target of one of the meaning of is MENSSTRUATION while other meanings are blood like material coming out of the stem acacia tree ( &#1585, Water flows ( &#1569. So the meaning of is place or time when blood or water flows . Now keeping in view the context of war the simple meanings are the time or place of war.

Other objection to the traditional translation is the answer to the query about ,the answer is "painful". This answer is not correct about MENSTRUATION. Its only painful or disturbing to some ladies. This statement can not be taken categorical for all ladies. Hence It is again to be interpreted as condition of war. So never means keep yourself away from ladies but here it again means keep yourself away from the oppressed or weak people till they have cleared of the wrong thoughts and ideas. Once they are pure according to Quranic teachings then you may come to them according to the orders of Quran. Because God loves those who return to the right path and purifies.

Bob

?AL-NISAA?A? to leave a process/ action, atrophy, or duo to negligence deliberately leave something, , to forget something. In urdu, the word ? is name of a disease of forgetting. This phrase is often repeated- Humans are objects to errors and (forgetting) ?
means to leave a thing or make someone unaware of something, Al-Qaamoos almuhyd page 1645 said women are seen as a forgetful gender, so it is used for women. In verse 43 the word is preceded by ( ) which means that some ordinary ?nisaa?a? is not being discussed, but some particular ?nisaa?a? is mentioned. It also confirms that nisaa?a here does not signify women, but rather gives the meaning of ideological weakness

The Word NISA is used frequently in the story of Syedana Moses, where it is told that Pharaoh used to kill ?ABNA? but not ?NISA?. Under the influence of Jewish stories, our clergy told us that the newborn baby boys of bani Israel were killed

It should be cleared up who the ABNA and NISA of Bani Israel was?

According to the traditional explanation, this practice by Pharaoh was to be executed even on Moses when he was born. But according to the Quran this command, of killing the abna, was given when Moses challenged Pharaoh in his court.

7127
And the eminent among the people of Pharaoh said," Will you leave Moses and his people to cause corruption in the land and abandon you and your gods?" said, "We will kill their sons and keep their women alive; and indeed, we are subjugators over them." TRADITIOINAL TRANSLATION

From this verse we can see Moses is not newborn child,

For a ruler whose system and ruling is challenged, the killing of newborns would be of no use, but rather, he would kill the ?challengers?, those who are able to oppose and defy him.
Those who are committed to change the fate of their nation and stood up against Pharaoh like a wall

Those are called

ABNA AL QAWM

Contrary, another group which was oppressed and made so weak that they could not stand up against Pharaoh, are called

ALNISA

Even today such people are not capable to achieve any excellence. Their conscience is so distorted that they blame every situation on the creator.

4911 O you who have believed, let not a QAWM people ridicule people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let ALNISA women ridicule women; perhaps they may be better than them

Qawm is when a group of people are pitched at an ideology and stance and remain steadfast; otherwise they are not a Qawm but a crowd.

The Quran defined both words by using ALNISA as opposing to the word QAWM.

I.E

QAWM - those who stand firm on their position

NISA - those people in a society whose status is weak

Mazhar

That is, I did not see those grammarians stating that if the subject of the pronoun is all male, it must be previously stated explicitly.

Who is that "learned" grammarian who has stated this?
When the subject pronoun of a verb is masculine plural, it is certainly mentioned earlier.

Noon_waalqalami

Tthe word means the place or the time or the target of one of the meaning of is MENSSTRUATION while other meanings are blood like material coming out of the stem acacia tree ( &#1585, Water flows ( &#1569. So the meaning of is place or time when blood or water flows . Now keeping in view the context of war the simple meanings are the time or place of war.

Other objection to the traditional translation is the answer to the query about ,the answer is "painful". This answer is not correct about MENSTRUATION. Its only painful or disturbing to some ladies. This statement can not be taken categorical for all ladies. Hence It is again to be interpreted as condition of war. So never means keep yourself away from ladies but here it again means keep yourself away from the oppressed or weak people till they have cleared of the wrong thoughts and ideas. Once they are pure according to Quranic teachings then you may come to them according to the orders of Quran. Because God loves those who return to the right path and purifies.

NISA - those people in a society whose status is weak

Peace Bob, finally someone posts what they think the words actually mean. Thus according to Bob and Shirley (not sure about Shirley; refuses to post meanings) we can use simple word substitution to see if it makes sense?

2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations to nisakum/oppressed or weak yours?

2222 and they ask you about the time or place of war say it ailment so abandon al-nisaa the oppressed or weak in the time or place of war and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselves

2223 nisukum oppressed or weak yours a tillage for you so approach your tilt how you like ?
2226 to those who forswear from oppressed or weak theirs (m) waiting four ashr/cycles
2236 not blame over you if you divorce nisaa/the oppressed or weak what not you touched them...

411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (f) so if are (f. pl) nisaa/oppressed or weak above two (f) falahunna/so to them (f. pl) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/is (f) whidatan one/single (f) so to her the half

415 and the ones whom they come the immorality from oppressed or weak yours
422 and not marry whom married your fathers from the oppressed or weak
423 prohibited over you your mothers ? and mothers nisakum/oppressed or weak yours
4129 and never you will be able that do justice between the oppressed or weak

56 O you the ones who believe when you stand up to the prayer so wash your faces and your hands to the elbow and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles and if you are impure so purify yourselves and if you are sick or on journey or comes one from among you from the toilet or you touched the oppressed or weak? ?

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the time or place of war from nisakum/oppressed or weak yours if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles and the ones (f) not yaid'na menstruate? and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier

y d = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 323

1 , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. , inf. n. and (S, Msb, K) and , (Aboo-Is-h?k, K,) said of a woman, (S, A, Msb, K,) She menstruated; i. e. her blood flowed; (A or blood came forth from her womb; (Mgh as also or this latter signifies she likened herself to the . (TA.) -b2- Also She attained the age of menstruation. (TA.) -b3- , (S, A, Msb,) aor. as above, (Msb,) inf. n. , (S, Msb,) The flowed with, (S,) or emitted, (A,) a matter resembling blood; (S, A flowed with its gum (Msb) the matter which it emits is called ; and is applied to the head of a new-born infant to scare away the j?nn, or genii. (A, TA ) -b4- The torrent overflowed; or poured out, or forth, from fullness; or ran; syn. . (TA.) 2 He attributed to the woman. (Msb.) -b2- , (TK,) inf. n., (Sgh, K,) Tempore men- struorum inivit ancillam suam. (Sgh, K, TK.) -b3- , (TK,) inf. n. as above, (K,) He made the water to flow. (K, TA.)

5 see 1. -b2- Also She abstained form prayer (&#1577 during the days of her ; (S, Msb, K, TA waiting for the stopping of the bloodTA) or she abstained, and did as the does (A, * Mgh) or she reckoned herself , and did as the does. (TA.) 10 , (S, Mgh, Msb,) in the pass. form, (Msb,) with damm to the , (Mgh,) found in the handwriting of Aboo-Zekereey? , (TA,) She continued to have a flow of blood (S, Mgh) after her days (S) or she had an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb) or her blood flowed without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (TA.) . -b2- A thing which flows from the , resembling . (Mgh.) A single time, or turn, of menstruation, or of the flow of the menstrual blood (S, * A, * Mgh, Msb *) pl. ; (A, Msb like as is pl. of , and of , and of , and of ; though by rule it should be . (Msb.) You say, and and . (A.) -b2- As used by the professors of practical law, The accustomed days thereof. (Mgh.) -b3- Also A single flow pl. . (TA.) the subst. from (S, K, TA) or a mode, or manner, or state, of (Msb) or the state (Mgh, TA) of the , (TA,) which is one of avoidance (Mgh, TA) of prayer and fasting and the like (Mgh) pl.. (S, Msb.) -b2- Also The menstrual blood; the blood of menstruation; and so and . (TA.) -b3- Also The piece of rag which the binds over her vulva; (S, Mgh, * Msb, * K and so (S) which latter also signifies a piece of rag thrown away (TA) pl. of the latter, . (S, TA.) see . , applied to a woman, act. part. n. from ; (S, Mgh, Msb, K thus, because it is an epithet of particular application ; (Msb and with ', being like and &c.; (TA and in like manner also, (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) on the authority of Fr (S) pl. (of the former, Msb) , (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) like as is pl. of , (Msb,) and , like as is pl. of , (TA,) and of the latter, , (Msb,) or . (S, Mgh, K.) -b2- In a certain trad., in which it is said that God will not accept the prayer of a unless she be with a , this does not mean one who is menstruating while actually occupied by prayer, (Msb, TA, *) but One who has attained to the age of menstruation; (TA or one who has attained to womanhood (Mgh) or it has not this meaning; for if it had, one would understand that a girl not arrived at puberty might pray with her head uncovered, which is not the case; but it means the menstruating kind, whether she have attained to puberty or not; as though the term female had been used in its place. (Msb.) is a simple subst. as well as an inf. n. (Zj, K) as the former, it is a n. of place; and as such it is used in the Kur ii. 222; meaning A woman's ; (Zj her ; (Mgh because it is the place of . (Zj, Mgh.) Some say that is hence derived; because the water flows to the (Az, K) for the Arabs put in the place of , and in that of. (Az, TA.) -b2- It is also a n. of time . (TA.) -b3- See also . -b4- When it is a simple subst., it has a pl., namely . (TA.) see . A woman continuing to have a flow of blood after her days (S) or having an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb) or having her blood flowing without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (K, * TA.)

An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.

bkanwar2

Question for Wakas.

Why are you calling poster "Shirley" as "Damon"?

Thanks

Shirley

Salaam Everyone,

I will state this again in clearer terms so that I am not misunderstood this time. I am having a discussion with WAKAS and HE is the person I have chosen to have my discussion with. If anyone else here shares the same views and understandings of 4/1 - 4/3 as Wakas, then if those understandings that you all have in common with him are dissected, analyzed and proven faulty in MY and WAKAS' discussion then you will receive the same answer to your questions as him.

Wakas,

Damon,

Let's tackle this one point at a time

I have two problems with these words of yours. First Problem; it appears that you are trying to decide how this discussion will proceed and WHICH POINTS are to be discussed. I have always had a problem with this when you participate in a "discussion". Second Problem; You are attempting to decide which points are to be discussed WITHOUT answering ANY of the questions I asked you in my last reply. Not even one. BUT, you come back with a post asking someone else to answer Your Questions. I already pointed out to you earlier that I have a problem with you doing this because I see this as Manipulating the direction and the TERMS of the discussion and whoever does the manipulating of a discussion will manipulate it to where everyone MUST answer all of his questions while he himself Does Not have to answer the other person's questions or at best Choosing which questions to answer and which questions to ignore. I don't mind tackling one point at a time, but they cannot be only Your Points. Let us address ALL OF THE POINTS put on the table in this discussion.

Damon's view the ones doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 are "an-nisa".
Wakas' view the one doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 is MOST LIKELY the one determining suitablity/pleasing

There can only be a few possibilities
the one determining suitability/pleasing (for nikah)
the people
the yateem
the nisa
or some other option

I hope you don't mind that I underlined and placed in all capitals your two words Most Likely. First of all, this is why I mentioned the words Conjecture and Guesswork earlier on because these words of yours such as It CAN mean this and Most Likely are essentially the arena of conjecture because these words demonstrate that you have not proven beyond the shadow of doubt that it DOES mean this. And by using the words Most Likely shows you haven't demonstrated that It Definitely Is. Secondly Wakas, You Contradict Yourself and set a double standard with your insistence on Most Likely. Do you remember when I made my comment in This Post ? I'll repeat my comment from that post

As far as the possibility of the word Nisaa' developing independently or being a borrowed word it is highly, HIGHLY unlikely that the Arabs would have had to Borrow a foreign expression for one of the most COMMON words in any language.

And here is what you said to me in This Reply made by you

Re my point 3
By your use of "highly unlikely" you indirectly admit what I said is possible. Even though your "highly unlikely" is CONJECTURE,

You contradicted yourself Wakas and YOU admit yourself that using these terms such as "highly unlikely" is Conjecture and I told you from the beginning of this conversation that you are relying your own conjecture concerning 4/3. I don't feel the need to point out whenever you contradict yourself because my arguments aren't based on rather or not you contradict yourself. However, since you pointed earlier what is to you a contradiction, I just thought it fair to let you know that you are contradicting yourself here. NOW, we can look at 4/3 and figure out who is performing the verb "Taaba"

I think this request of yours is reasonable "how 2nd person pronouns can perform a 3rd person verb or vice versa" - I haven't studied it, but we can look to Quran for examples or explanations. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.

This is why I told you earlier in this thread that you have to pay particular attention to the preposition in this verse. In fact, I made the statement that understanding the function this word plays in the verse is the 'key' to understanding WHO Taaba is referring to. But in your quest to win an argument (instead of ascertaining the truth) you TOTALLY IGNORED what I said, when I said it and that is because you are too busy listening to someone who you seem to think is an expert grammarian when that person also totally misses/ignores the function of in this verse and for the same reasons you are missing and ignoring it.

I'll repeat what I said in This Post

the word MIN is the KEY to determining WHO is being referred to with the word Taaba

Another one from that same post

You should keep in mind that Taaba is referring to those who are MIN AN-NISAA'

I tried my best to get you to look at this word and the function it plays in this verse. Now, there are FOUR things that I need to mention concerning the word so we can determine HOW

1). First thing I should not have to mention again because I provided the references and page numbers of at least two Books of Arabic Grammar which MENTION and EXPLAIN the ... construct in an Arabic sentence. Example Arabic sentences are provided in each book to illustrate the grammatical rule. These are the grammar books and the information in them that I have used to establish the existence and function of the ... construct in 4/3. Please keep in mind this construct has the word as part of the clause and I am stating again knowing the place and meaning of this word is KEY in understanding who is referring to in 4/3

2). Second thing I think is pretty easy to establish is that is in the 2nd person while is in the 3rd person. I have yet be presented with a grammatical explanation or grammar reference to explain HOW on earth a 3rd person verb is performed by the the 2nd person. It is your claim that is somehow masculine 2nd person perfect. I do know that there is a masculine 2nd person perfect plural for and if I'm not mistaken it is "Ttibtoom" and this word is non existent in 4/3. And like I said, we will need an explanation and/or a grammar reference to justify the 2nd person performing a 3rd person verb.

3). Third thing; having made mention of the ... clause, I think it is important to look at the MEANING and USES of the word .

This is from page 542 of Abdul Mannan Omar's Dictionary of The Holy Quran

Proposition used for expressing starting point, PART OF A WHOLE, ORIGIN AS, FROM, OF SOME, AMONGST.

And here is what John Penrice said on page 140 of his Dictionary and Glossary of The Koran

A preposition signifying ORIGIN, COMPOSITION, explanation, commencement, or separation.

So one glaring and overwhelming connotation that is established that of being FROM or AMONG/AMONGST or FROM AMONG

4). Having shown the MEANINGS of this word, we see these meanings in actual usage in 10/83, 2/253, 2/74 and 2/105 (just to name a few exemplary verses) to mean from or among or from among, etc. 21/97 uses it to mean "OF" which isn't at all a far divergence of the other meanings just mentioned. And If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be a fan of Muhammad Asad and his translation and commentary of The Quran. You should read his translation of 14/34 and footnote 47 of this verse where he says literally means "Out Of" and, in this context, "Something Out Of".

So, taking these four points and putting them all together, we should look at 4/3 and realize something very important and I am going to put it in very simple language so you can understand it. is in the 2nd person by virtue of the address (an address from 1st person to 2nd person). Regardless of the man made theory of some kind of shift in addressee, the fact remains that we have no substantial evidence to prove this and there is no substantial evidence which shows a shift of address from to someone else. The only thing you provide to try to support this claim is a link to a traditional muslim explaining the very thing I reject and he himself has no proof for. And I think it to be pretty amazing that the only links I ever provided throughout this entire discussion are references to Books of Arabic Grammar. Other than the link to the manmade "shift of address" theory, the only other links you send my way are links to ad hominem, logical fallacy, argument from ignorance, etc. No Quranic or Arabic Grammatical links, only wikipedia links for with your accusations of logical fallacies, argument out of ignorance, etc. If this is a Quranic and Arabic discussion you should provide references pertaining to Quran and Arabic. And as a side note, everytime you are pointing a finger at someone, there are three more fingers pointing right back at you. As they say, the BEST way to take the attention from what you do is to constantly accuse other people of doing it.

But, staying on topic; We see that are the addressees and is in the 2nd person. No change of address between 4/1 and 4/3. Just like is in the 2nd person in 4/1, so too , , , , , and are ALL in the 2nd person in 4/3. Thus, these 2nd person plural pronouns are referring to a 2nd person audience being addressed. The ONLY second person audience being DIRECTLY ADDRESSED BY NAME is in 4/1 and there is nothing between 4/1 and 4/3 which shows any switch or shift of any kind to another 2nd person audience other than .

Now, as you have already admitted more than once, is in the 3rd person. , just like the verb , is ALSO in the 3rd person and I say this because it is clear to everyone that is being Talked About. And they are being talked about to the 2nd person addressees which is . I am asking how, HOW can a 3rd person verb be carried out by a group who is in the 2nd person??? This is YOUR claim and YOUR belief, but you NEVER ONCE gave any evidence or reference to support this belief/claim and you NEVER explaned it yourself how this can occur. So, I'll say it again... has the meaning of from, among, from among, of, out of, etc. particularly when it precedes a noun just like it does in 10/83, 2/105, 2/74 AND 4/3 WHERE WE HAVE MIN AN-NISAA'!!

Is there any possible way to make it more clearer than this??

I also asked a reasonable request of you which was "If Quran is your ultimate criterion, if you know of an example in it wherein the one doing a masculine singular verb is "an-nisa" please bring it forth." - again, we can look to Quran to see if it has such examples. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.

If you would be reasonable and honest, you would see that very example from The Quran which is the verse we are discussing.

Now Wakas, I had asked you a few questions in my last reply to you and they went unanswered.

For now, I'll just stick with one question and get back to the rest of them later...

You keep repeating that a masculine plural can be used for an all male group of people AS WELL AS a mixed group of people that are male and female. You and I both acknowledge this. My Question To You is when you use the masculine plural yourself OR you come across the masculine plural through reading a text How Do You Know which group of people the masculine plural is referring to? If it is used for PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS it will be referring to one of those two groups. So how DO YOU ascertain WHICH GROUP the masculine plural is referring to?

inquisitivetrini

Salaam Everyone,

I will state this again in clearer terms so that I am not misunderstood this time. I am having a discussion with WAKAS and HE is the person I have chosen to have my discussion with. If anyone else here shares the same views and understandings of 4/1 - 4/3 as Wakas, then if those understandings that you all have in common with him are dissected, analyzed and proven faulty in MY and WAKAS' discussion then you will receive the same answer to your questions as him.

But I don't share the same views. '(

Anywho, nevermind. I tried. giveup

Peace.

Released

Peace )

I am going to read through it again. Thank you for providing a more in depth explanation! I appreciate it.

Peace all,

Peace Released!

I only understood partially since I'm a beginner. )
But I will try to explain what I understood and why it intrigued me. And don't worry about being slow. It took me about four times to read it (which ended up being, like, 20 minutes), while looking at the translation I have of the Quran.

Here's Bender's quote
Now here's the FM translation for 434
434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Notice
AlRi-jaal | men
qawwamoona | to support
AlNisa | women
AlSalihatu | women

When reading this verse in English, we would assume that "women" meant "women" and that they were the same word; however, looking at the Arabic, they're not the same!

If the standard translation = "the men are to support the women" then what happens when they don't? They are no longer Al-Rijaal? So they've lost their masculinity and became females? Or perhaps they turned into babies? Maybe cats?

Maha gave us an alternative to what these words might mean

This makes sense to me BUT when I apply this meaning to other verses, it does not make sense. The italics are mine
443 O you who believe, do not approach the salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the weaker Nas, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If "Nisa" means weaker society who needs care/charity, why are we washing after contacting them? Are they dirty while the leaders are clean?

56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had "intercourse", then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had "sexual contact" with the weaker NAS, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.

So now we're putting dirt on ourselves after having sexual contact with weaker Nas? And also, why does "junuban" and "lmastumu" both mean some kind of sexual impurity when they're obviously different words?

2222 And they ask you about menstruation? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.

Ok, earlier it was mentioned that "menstruation" is not the right translation here. So how am I to understand this?

Retire yourselves sexually = fa-i'tazil
Women = l-nisa
Approach = taqrabhunna

None of these are the same words as "sexually" whatever in 443 and 56. Now I have absolutely no idea what to make of this verse except God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.

So....Now what?

Peace Shirley,

For me, it is very difficult to follow the discussion because I'm very new at this "finding the Arabic root" thing. English is my only language. '(

You guys are discussing linguistics in depth and it is very hard for me to look at what you're referencing because then I have to utilize my brain to it's fullest extent trying to see where all the terms occur and at what level. I have no idea what an Arabic "Jussive mood" is or whatever or how words are feminine or masculine and whatever. I will eventually learn these things, of course, but I easily understand basic explanations of the subject. For instance, the post you began with was one that I understood fully. You showed instances where the word "Nisa" was used and why it cannot mean women and I picked up on that quickly.

But know the conversation has gotten a bit too specific for me. I need help understanding this and the only way for me to understand this is if you present a translation and then explain why that translation works. It is this method that I can understand and I know I can understand it because of reading several articles on free-minds that use this exact method (What's in the Name, Free Choice, etc).

So I'm sorry, I've tried to read the argument here but I cannot follow. So my experience reading this now is like reading a foreign language with a few accusative English words sprinkled in so that the only thing I understand is that you two are in a disagreement and accusing each other of certain things. For me, this is very frustrating to read and as you can see, it took me about 20 minutes or so to understand a simple explanation of linguistics in Bender's quote. I really need some help understanding. Perhaps you could PM me and others who want to know?

Peace and blessings Released, Shirley, and everyone here! yay

Released

Peace,

Shirley, I may be wrong, but do you want to have this discussion with Wakas exclusively? I felt like this wasn't made clear at the very start of the thread. So far, I've mainly been a spectator to this thread, but do you prefer that we all keep our questions to ourselves until both you and Wakas are finished?

Shirley

Salaam Inquisitivetrini and Released,

Please be patient with me. In the meantime, a lot can be revealed just by reading our discussion.

Shirley, I may be wrong, but do you want to have this discussion with Wakas exclusively? I felt like this wasn't made clear at the very start of the thread. So far, I've mainly been a spectator to this thread, but do you prefer that we all keep our questions to ourselves until both you and Wakas are finished?

If you'd like you can hold on to them for now or, if you'd prefer, you can post your questions and you have my word that I will address your questions once my discussion is concluded. I had promised StopS the same thing and I haven't forgotten my promise.

The reason I had made the decision to focus on Wakas is because there are a couple of people here who do share his views and for the same reason and they are posting the same beliefs that I am arguing against with Wakas. Instead of addressing three people individually, I'd rather focus on Wakas and in this way those other guys can watch how their beliefs (which they share with Wakas) are addressed through my discussion with him.

Salaam.

By the way, I am not Shirley. I am Shirley's husband and my name is Damon. I am posting using Shirley's account because I do not have an account of my own here.

Released

Peace Bob,

No offense, but neither of those sites look like reputable dictionaries. The second one looked really shady. Who created these dictionaries?

Also, I disagree that God would have had to used the ha-ya-dad for menstruation. ha-ya-dad is the root for mahid. I undertand it as how "sajada" is the root word for masjid. So, mahid is the actual word for menstruation, while ha-ya-dad is only the root, which means "to menstruate". Of course, "to menstruate" would not fit in here. As a result, God has chosen mahid.

Your other interpretations make little sense to me. I feel like I'm reading something that does not even relate to anything of relevance.

Another thing, are you saying that the word "al" before a word makes it very special? I don't agree with this approach either. Again, not sure if I understood you correctly. Please clarify further if I haven't understood you.

? The verse 2- 122 and above verse has a word , it is and the paradigm is . The meaning of the word can not be MENSTRUATION , The word for MENSTRAUTION is (If Allah tried to say menstruation, then why instead of the word is used?)
Also keep in mind this is a proper noun, ALMUKHAIZ, -how many different kind of menstruations does it exists, since Allah had to point out a specific kind of menstruation, THE MUKHAIZ, AL MUKHAIZ?

Here one can see it is khaiz and Al khaiz for menstruation and not mukhaiz or almukhaiz.

http//mymemory.translated.net/t/English/Arabic/menstruation

different forms of the word, menstrual ?= khaizi NOT makhaizi

http//en.bab.la/dictionary/english-arabic/menstrual

wonder if Khaiz is even mentioned in the Quran?

Tthe word means the place or the time or the target of one of the meaning of is MENSSTRUATION while other meanings are blood like material coming out of the stem acacia tree ( &#1585, Water flows ( &#1569. So the meaning of is place or time when blood or water flows . Now keeping in view the context of war the simple meanings are the time or place of war.

Other objection to the traditional translation is the answer to the query about ,the answer is "painful". This answer is not correct about MENSTRUATION. Its only painful or disturbing to some ladies. This statement can not be taken categorical for all ladies. Hence It is again to be interpreted as condition of war. So never means keep yourself away from ladies but here it again means keep yourself away from the oppressed or weak people till they have cleared of the wrong thoughts and ideas. Once they are pure according to Quranic teachings then you may come to them according to the orders of Quran. Because God loves those who return to the right path and purifies.

Released

Peace Damon,

Fine. I won't address you. However, I will continue my discussions with the others. Especially Bob. He's making my head spin.

Salaam Inquisitivetrini and Released,

Please be patient with me. In the meantime, a lot can be revealed just by reading our discussion.

If you'd like you can hold on to them for now or, if you'd prefer, you can post your questions and you have my word that I will address your questions once my discussion is concluded. I had promised StopS the same thing and I haven't forgotten my promise.

The reason I had made the decision to focus on Wakas is because there are a couple of people here who do share his views and for the same reason and they are posting the same beliefs that I am arguing against with Wakas. Instead of addressing three people individually, I'd rather focus on Wakas and in this way those other guys can watch how their beliefs (which they share with Wakas) are addressed through my discussion with him.

Salaam.

By the way, I am not Shirley. I am Shirley's husband and my name is Damon. I am posting using Shirley's account because I do not have an account of my own here.

Released

Peace sister,

In regard to your other post, I read through it. Thanks for writing all that out for me. sun

On the topic of 434, I still hold the understanding that rijaal refers to the menfolk. The men are to be the protectors and supporters of women. This is what I believe to be a suggested norm. However, as we know, this may not always be the case. Still, the rijaal remain men of course, but unable to fulfill what God has guided them to do. Of course, there could be for a multitude of reasons as to why they are unable, and generally they are advised to protect and support their womenfolk. Now, I'm not sure if this always pertains to finances, I think it can mean different things for different people depending on circumstances. I'm not sure if I made sense. Please correct me if I've understood incorrectly. -[

Oh, and don't worry. I am also trying to follow along and wrap my mind around some of the technical word usage for Arabic grammar here. Also, there appears to be a variety of resources being used, all of which I do not have access to. However, I think that it's good that we're making an effort to learn and follow along. I believe that we will be rewarded for our efforts. May God guide us toward the truth in these interpretations.

But I don't share the same views. '(

Anywho, nevermind. I tried. giveup

Peace.

Released