Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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rajul ----------- rijaal
nasu' (?)------ nisaa'
???
Salaam
Salaam huruf,
It can be deduced from inheritance that nisaa encompasses one to many females any age...
411 .. so if are (f) nisaa above two (f) falahunna/so for them (f) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/she is (f) widatan/one (f) so for her the half
4176 ... and if they were brethren/siblings rijal wanisaa so to the male like share the two (f) clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing
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Mazhar, I'm afraid that's the last straw. I've wasted enough time with you Sir. Let me know if/when you decide to discuss Damon's Grammatical Explanation of 4/3 and His Grammar Sources! Salaam to you.
Salamun alaika,
Brother I sincerely wish to take you out of the erroneous shackles Astana has succeded placing them. That is why I am emhphasising the elementaries of Arabic grammar. In Taba case, AnNisa are not the subject since a subject has to be nominative. Now again see AnNisa acting as SUBJECT of a masculine verb, third person, singular, masculine
Verb is imperfect; third person; singular; masculine; indicative mood and its SUBJECT is . Please see case endings, it is nominative.
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Salamun Alaykum people, I have two little questions, please don't ignore them
Is Shirley a guy or a girl?
And who is Damon? -
Salaam huruf,
It can be deduced from inheritance that nisaa encompasses one to many females any age...
411 .. so if are (f) nisaa above two (f) falahunna/so for them (f) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/she is (f) widatan/one (f) so for her the half
4176 ... and if they were brethren/siblings rijal wanisaa so to the male like share the two (f) clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing
So are you saying that the word nisaa' is singular and also plural? Is that what you are saying? That is what I was asking. Not what it encompasses, because it is obvious that any group also encompasses the unit.
Salaam
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Salaam Huruf,
You had asked me a couple of noteworthy questions that really got me thinking and re-evaluating how I had approached this subject. But first
I take the opportunity to insist again in the aya (I can't remember the number) where we are enjoined to give the best meaning to the Qur'an
I'm not sure which ayat you're thinking of but it seems to me like you are referencing 39/17-18.
But now to the better questions you asked
This meaning of n-k-H as any kind of contract, can you give a source? It is a meaning that is given in the Project root, but I have looked in the Lane and in the Wehr, which are the ones within my reach now and I do not see anything.
Huruf, I view a "Nikah" as a Social Contract. The social issues it addresses or encompasses should be derived from context, imho. I am looking at the contexts in which the derivatives of "NaKiHa" are used in The Quran and in other Arabic texts. I am doing the same thing with the root word "ZaJa". I believe the contexts of 4/3 and 33/49 are describing a situation in which a "Social Contract" is established. A social contract can be established through evolution of a society and social practices and activities that would give it it's life OR it can be deliberately established by the people if it is within their means and control to give birth to and help to shape and evolve a social contract. It is my understanding that The Quran is recommending that it's readers institute the second possibility of this idea. And a social contract MAY or MAY NOT include a Written contract. The mutual agreement of the people involved is what makes a social contract what it is and gives it it's function in a society.
As far as sources for this understanding, I am requesting that you go back to Lane's Lexicon and look up the entry for NaKiHa once more. There is more under that entry than the idea of an "intermingling" or "connecting" a man and a woman in a relationship. You can also look at "Lughatul Quran" by G.A. Parvez as he gives a pretty decent explanation of this concept as well. Please absorb and internalize the concept behind this word and then look at the context of 4/3 and any other ayaat in The Quran where this root is used.
Also remind that in Arabic there are the words dhakar and untha to distinguish sexes without ambiguity, so when none of those terms are used or the regular feminine or masculine plural, there may be ambiguity or different possibilities and we should not ignore that.
Excellent explanation and I have nothing that I can add to this. Now the most important question which was asked
Also, if there is in the honourable Qur'an an aya where this meaning of contract is manifest, it would be appreciated.
And that's the problem. This is why I have been trying to emphasize in my last couple of posts that a project has been undertaken to start this process of Quranic understanding all over...from scratch. The problem that I face when trying to answer this question is that the traditional translators and commentators already beat me to those verses and have deeply implanted in everyones minds that those verses where the root word NaKiHa is used is talking about marriage. But they didn't do this by mistranslating and misinterpreting Nikah, Ankihoo and Nisaa only. They have mistranslated and misintepreted EVERY WORD in all of those verses. It would make little to no sense to only address the words Nikah and Nisaa in those verses because we would still need to fix our understanding of all of the other words in those same verses. So, a lot of work has to be done to sift through all the sand in order to find that treasure that has been kept away from us for centuries now. So now there is only one thing I can say about
this question and brings me to a pretty important conclusionOne will have to see Aastana's translation of the entire Quran and compare it to the translations that are already here. This is what Dr. Shabbir Ahmed has done with QXP. Someone (not on this forum) had suggested to me about a week ago that myself and others should probably wait until Dr. QZ's translation is completed and also available in English before presenting our understandinsg to others and this type of question is something he mentioned to me in that conversation. I have to say that now I think he's right. By presenting my understanding of Nisaa and 4/3 to others (not just here on this forum) I am always asked what about this verse? How about that verse? How will it fit here? Where else does it say what you think it says?, etc. And this will always be an issue because of those two very important reasons; The traditional translations are centuries ahead of us in the race and Aastana has yet to complete Her translation. -D I think I (and we at Aastana) would be better able to explain and point things out better if readers can see Aastana's translation which would represent Aastana's undertsanding of the entirety of The Quran.
Of course I am continuing with my dialogue with you but I am stating that I should have practiced a little more patience and waited until at least the Urdu translation was complete (we'll be translating it from Urdu to English too).
Sorry for that long speech, but in my opinion the vast majority of the verse where this word is mentioned in The Quran manifests as a "social contract" or "social bonding" among people in the society, but we would have to FIRST cleanse our thoughts of the Conceptual Barriers that have been planted in our heads.
Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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Salamun Alaykum people, I have two little questions, please don't ignore them
Is Shirley a guy or a girl?
Shirley is a Girl...well, woman.
And who is Damon?
I Am Damon. I'm Shirley's husband. I have been posting using her account because I do not have an account here of my own and I see no point in having one. I used to years ago before everyone else involved in this thread had arrived here, the two exceptions being Wakas and Savage Carrot. )
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Shirley is a Girl...well, woman.
I Am Damon. I'm Shirley's husband. I have been posting using her account because I do not have an account here of my own and I see no point in having one. I used to years ago before everyone else involved in this thread had arrived here, the two exceptions being Wakas and Savage Carrot.
oh, I see....thanx for the clarification
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Salaam Huruf,
I'm not sure which ayat you're thinking of but it seems to me like you are referencing 39/17-18.
Yes, that is the one, 39.18. Thanks, Damon,
I insist on this aya because I think it is very relevant for the undertaking of this thread.
Many people have extracted meanings from this or that understanding of this sensence or phrase or word from the honourable Qur'an. They may think that is the best that can be extract from those parts of the text. If honestly they think so and cannot see a better meaning, that is up to them, their honesty, sincerity and relationship with God.
On the other hand it is also legitimate that those who think that a better meaning can be had from the divine word, then they should strive to get at it. That is also a jihad. I do not think we can keep people from trying things because supposedly nobody tried them before them. Will they get what they expect? That is in God's hands. The jihad is the part of the human, the reward is the part of God. So if we strive to the best of our ability and with all honesty we are capable of, it is sure that we will get something out of the effort. It always happens when an exercise is undertaken and a sincere and thourough effort is deployed.
It is important also that those who "oppose" the undertaking be loyal and put forward their objection without arrogance and with loyalty and not wishing that they fail. Otherwise instead of a difference of points of view, what arises is a battle and the feeling that the failure of one is the victory of the other, which is really self-defeating for both. It should not come to that. If God had wanted us to be unanimous in everything He would have given us a Pope. Let us enjoy and thank for the freedom of mind and thought. There is no better gift.
Salaam
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So are you saying that the word nisaa' is singular and also plural? Is that what you are saying? That is what I was asking. Not what it encompasses, because it is obvious that any group also encompasses the unit.
Salaam
Use context, no grammar standards back then; simply read verse, nisaa equates to any #of females any age...
411
so if are (f) nisaa above two (f)
falahunna/so for them (f) third dual (2/3) what left
and if kanat/she is (f) whidatan/one (f) so for her the halfThis sentence covers all combinations of mixed siblings and nisaa cannot be anything other than females.
4176
and if they were siblings rijal wanisaa so to the male like share the two (females)
clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing Knowing1 sister; 1 brother
1 sister; 2 brothers
1 sister; 3+ brothers2 sisters; 1 brother
2 sisters; 2 brothers
2 sisters; 3+ brothers3+ sisters; 1 brother
3+ sisters; 2 brothers
3+ sisters; 3+ brothersPeace
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so if are (f) nisaa above two (f)
Plural, subject noun is third person plural feminine that denotes three feminines and above. plural three and above women, is the predicate.
over and above two feminines . This is adjectival clause. In fact this is the succintness and delicacies of text of Qur'aan. Noon is right because of this adjectival descrition of the subject of deficient verb and its predicate that all ages stand covered while reference restricted to three or more feminine.
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Salaam Huruf,
Before we continue with the morphology of the word Nisaa', I would like to know if we are clear about the grammatical structure of 4/3 and how it shows that Nisaa' cannot be "women". Also, I am not a fan of the possibility that this word can mean women in some contexts but not others. I prefer consistency especially when this word doesn't represent the feminine gender and we do have the words that you have pointed out (Untha and Dhakar) for female and male as well as Imr'u and Imra'a for man and woman.
Also, Released, Dawngorgeous, Inquisitivetrini, I would LOOOOOOOOVE for you guys to join in and provide your own input. yes
Salaam,
Damon.Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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Before we continue with the morphology of the word Nisaa', I would like to know if we are clear about the grammatical structure of 4/3 and how it shows that Nisaa' cannot be "women".
starting from scratch
Interesting approach----start by placing the cart before the horse... rotfl rotfl bravo
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Salaam, Damon,
Before we continue with the morphology of the word Nisaa', I would like to know if we are clear about the grammatical structure of 4/3 and how it shows that Nisaa' cannot be "women". Also, I am not a fan of the possibility that this word can mean women in some contexts but not others. I prefer consistency especially when this word doesn't represent the feminine gender and we do have the words that you have pointed out (Untha and Dhakar) for female and male as well as Imr'u and Imra'a for man and woman.
Right now, I am open to every possibility. One of them, that ayas may have different legitimate ways of approach depending on the context we may apply them to, or even our mental context. I think that the choice of words in the Qur'an is not random, but purposeful, and also that there may be different levels of meaning, and different applications dependent on context, textual context or real world context, since I also consider the honourable Qur'an a dynamic text. That is why I insist that it is upon us to give to what we read or hear the best possible meaning. It falls on the sincerity and iman of the person not to cheat on that nor to cheat him or herself.
As to 4.3, I hve read many times the aya and I have heard understandings of it by the dozens, and it seems to me that in fact nobody is clear as to its aims alication precisely and accurately and everything seems to be up for grabs. While its aim, protecting thos who need protection from abuse, injustice, etc. is clear, the "hows" seem to be a matter of imagination.
You did make a translation in this thread I think of 4.3. May be you can post it again, and we may go through it step by step. Right now there are so many pages of this that my head turns. Or you can give me a hint of where int he thread it is.
Also my feeling right now is that rajul-rijaal and nisaa' basically are sociological constructs and not properly sexes, but in some cases genders, because, when sex and not genders are considered, there are other words, like mu'minaat, azwaaj, etc.
You ask me to be clear or say something conclusive at this time, but I sincerely can't. It is too wide a field, as wide as the Qur'an itself, very complex. I have the impression that now we have barely began to scratch the surface, and I do not want to limit the possibilities it offers. I would like to keep the study as open as possible and not reject any fruitful venue of study, may it seem very odd or not.
My gut feeling is that the morphology of the whole thing and its genesis is fundamental.
For me, it is fundamental whether nisaa' comes from a-n-s, n-s-y, n-s-', nsw... or from a confluence of some or all of those. I know, for certain that it has no sex, though it may have attached some gender in some contexts, or offer at least that possibility.
Rajul-rijaal, also has no sex, but may have attached equally some gender in some contexts.
That is why I asked, amongst many other things, if nisaa' is a broken plural, what is its singular? In the same way that we have rajul-rijaal what do we have ....... -nisaa'? I am afraid I cannot feel commited to anything fixed without some more clarity on that. When did the words rajul-rijaal and nisaa' started to be aplied to genders? Because its basic meaning is not that. Like saying, for instance, 'the weaker sex' means nothing. It is a euphemism and a sociological term, not a biologocal or real sexual term, resting on a speculation of what may constitute weakness, which of course is completely subjective.
Also I had this question on Arabic grammar
For the feminine I mean, let us take the nisaa' word, as group name it concords in the feminine, were "her" components people of masculine gender or mixed gender, would it be gramatically correct to use the concordance of a feminine plural in the verbs and sentences of which they are the subject and the corresponding pronouns? Since in English there are no gramatical genders I can't give a good example, but the impression would be that all the components taken as a whole would be feminine grammatical gender, independently of what their grammatical gender might if they happenned isolatedly . I do not know whether I have made myself clear.
In principle, as I have said, I am open to every possibility that gives a good or best understanding of the ayas of the honourable Qur'an. Preserving a statu quo which is not just nor equitable is not for me the best understanding, or a good understanding, it is would rather be at this stage a perversion of the text. But I do want also solid ground on which to found a good understanding. I am confident that we, in sha' Allah, striving in good faith, can get to it.
So I would like to get on, if at all possible, with the morphological part,
and now that we have gone through a lot of back and forth, might be good to put again forth your translation of 4.3 and look at it thoroughly. We may get a better view of where exactly we find difficulties and why.Thanks and salaam
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That is why I asked, amongst many other things, if nisaa' is a broken plural, what is its singular?
And its Dual.
The grammatical numbers in Arabic areSingular nouns that refer to one person or thing.
Dual nouns that refer to two persons or things.
Plural nouns that refer to more than two persons or things.
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salaam
according to this french article http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/12/23/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-8-polygamie-et-esclavage-chez-les-islamisto-paiens/
verse 4-3 is not speaking at all about polygamy.it is all about charity. Muslims are only asked to help poors, orphans and concubines to get married by group of two, three or four and if not possible, only one or a women living in the status of concubine.
Malaket aymanoukom means "possesed by verbal promise" and not slaves.All about charity, nothing to do with polygalmy and slavery.
Peace
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Peace Wakas,
Thanks for providing your explanations to me. Thanks also for providing links to the other threads. I'm going to read through them and if I should have any questions, then I will ask you at a later time, God willing.
Peace Huruf,
Thank you for starting the morphology discussion.
Peace Damon,
I also look forward to reading everything that you've written. I do understand the approach that Aastana is taking and look forward to one day reading their translation of the Quran, God willing.
I need to catch up on my reading in this thread, so I hope to contribute what little I know or have questions in regard to, God willing.
Peace Wael,
Thanks for your input as well.
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I prefer consistency especially when this word doesn't represent the feminine gender and we do have the words that you have pointed out (Untha and Dhakar) for female and male as well as Imr'u and Imra'a for man and woman.
4176 and if were siblings rijal wanisa falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
43 and if you fear that not do justice in the orphans so marry what taba/agreeable to you from al-nisaa/the women paired/dual/twos and three and quadruplet so if you fear that not do justice so one (f) or what possess your right hands that minimum that not you oppress
Right now, I am open to every possibility.
Peace huruf -- this is very simple; please translate name of painting into Arabic (yes you too Shirley)?
"Three Arabian women"
http//images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/three-arabian-women--sunaina-serna-ahluwalia.jpg
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4176 and if were siblings rijal wanisa falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
So, why do you think the text switches from rijaalan and nisaa' to dhakar and untha? Are there rijaal who are not dhakar and nisaa' who are not untha?
Salaam
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So, why do you think the text switches from rijaalan and nisaa' to dhakar and untha? Are there rijaal who are not dhakar and nisaa' who are not untha?
What, no translation of "three Arabian women" into Arabic?
The same reason if mixed children (i.e. males and females) and to clarify if mixed siblings.
411 directs you The God in your children
lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)4176... and if were ikh'watun/siblings rijlan wanisan
falildhakari/so to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (feminine)
clarifies The God for you lest you stray and The God in every a thing KnowingPeace