Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the menstruation from nisakum/feminine yours if you doubt so their waiting period three cycles and the ones (f) not menstruated and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads/give birth and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier
? The verse 2- 122 and above verse has a word , it is and the paradigm is . The meaning of the word can not be MENSTRUATION , The word for MENSTRAUTION is (If Allah tried to say menstruation, then why instead of the word is used?)
Also keep in mind this is a proper noun, ALMUKHAIZ, -how many different kind of menstruations does it exists, since Allah had to point out a specific kind of menstruation, THE MUKHAIZ, AL MUKHAIZ?
Here one can see it is khaiz and Al khaiz for menstruation and not mukhaiz or almukhaiz.
http//mymemory.translated.net/t/English/Arabic/menstruation
different forms of the word, menstrual ?= khaizi NOT makhaizi
http//en.bab.la/dictionary/english-arabic/menstrual
wonder if Khaiz is even mentioned in the Quran?
Tthe word means the place or the time or the target of one of the meaning of is MENSSTRUATION while other meanings are blood like material coming out of the stem acacia tree ( ر, Water flows ( ء. So the meaning of is place or time when blood or water flows . Now keeping in view the context of war the simple meanings are the time or place of war.
Other objection to the traditional translation is the answer to the query about ,the answer is "painful". This answer is not correct about MENSTRUATION. Its only painful or disturbing to some ladies. This statement can not be taken categorical for all ladies. Hence It is again to be interpreted as condition of war. So never means keep yourself away from ladies but here it again means keep yourself away from the oppressed or weak people till they have cleared of the wrong thoughts and ideas. Once they are pure according to Quranic teachings then you may come to them according to the orders of Quran. Because God loves those who return to the right path and purifies.
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?AL-NISAA?A? to leave a process/ action, atrophy, or duo to negligence deliberately leave something, , to forget something. In urdu, the word ? is name of a disease of forgetting. This phrase is often repeated- Humans are objects to errors and (forgetting) ?
means to leave a thing or make someone unaware of something, Al-Qaamoos almuhyd page 1645 said women are seen as a forgetful gender, so it is used for women. In verse 43 the word is preceded by ( ) which means that some ordinary ?nisaa?a? is not being discussed, but some particular ?nisaa?a? is mentioned. It also confirms that nisaa?a here does not signify women, but rather gives the meaning of ideological weaknessThe Word NISA is used frequently in the story of Syedana Moses, where it is told that Pharaoh used to kill ?ABNA? but not ?NISA?. Under the influence of Jewish stories, our clergy told us that the newborn baby boys of bani Israel were killed
It should be cleared up who the ABNA and NISA of Bani Israel was?
According to the traditional explanation, this practice by Pharaoh was to be executed even on Moses when he was born. But according to the Quran this command, of killing the abna, was given when Moses challenged Pharaoh in his court.
7127
And the eminent among the people of Pharaoh said," Will you leave Moses and his people to cause corruption in the land and abandon you and your gods?" said, "We will kill their sons and keep their women alive; and indeed, we are subjugators over them." TRADITIOINAL TRANSLATIONFrom this verse we can see Moses is not newborn child,
For a ruler whose system and ruling is challenged, the killing of newborns would be of no use, but rather, he would kill the ?challengers?, those who are able to oppose and defy him.
Those who are committed to change the fate of their nation and stood up against Pharaoh like a wallThose are called
ABNA AL QAWM
Contrary, another group which was oppressed and made so weak that they could not stand up against Pharaoh, are called
ALNISA
Even today such people are not capable to achieve any excellence. Their conscience is so distorted that they blame every situation on the creator.
4911 O you who have believed, let not a QAWM people ridicule people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let ALNISA women ridicule women; perhaps they may be better than them
Qawm is when a group of people are pitched at an ideology and stance and remain steadfast; otherwise they are not a Qawm but a crowd.
The Quran defined both words by using ALNISA as opposing to the word QAWM.
I.E
QAWM - those who stand firm on their position
NISA - those people in a society whose status is weak
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That is, I did not see those grammarians stating that if the subject of the pronoun is all male, it must be previously stated explicitly.
Who is that "learned" grammarian who has stated this?
When the subject pronoun of a verb is masculine plural, it is certainly mentioned earlier. -
Tthe word means the place or the time or the target of one of the meaning of is MENSSTRUATION while other meanings are blood like material coming out of the stem acacia tree ( ر, Water flows ( ء. So the meaning of is place or time when blood or water flows . Now keeping in view the context of war the simple meanings are the time or place of war.
Other objection to the traditional translation is the answer to the query about ,the answer is "painful". This answer is not correct about MENSTRUATION. Its only painful or disturbing to some ladies. This statement can not be taken categorical for all ladies. Hence It is again to be interpreted as condition of war. So never means keep yourself away from ladies but here it again means keep yourself away from the oppressed or weak people till they have cleared of the wrong thoughts and ideas. Once they are pure according to Quranic teachings then you may come to them according to the orders of Quran. Because God loves those who return to the right path and purifies.
NISA - those people in a society whose status is weak
Peace Bob, finally someone posts what they think the words actually mean. Thus according to Bob and Shirley (not sure about Shirley; refuses to post meanings) we can use simple word substitution to see if it makes sense?
2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations to nisakum/oppressed or weak yours?
2222 and they ask you about the time or place of war say it ailment so abandon al-nisaa the oppressed or weak in the time or place of war and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselves
2223 nisukum oppressed or weak yours a tillage for you so approach your tilt how you like ?
2226 to those who forswear from oppressed or weak theirs (m) waiting four ashr/cycles
2236 not blame over you if you divorce nisaa/the oppressed or weak what not you touched them...411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (f) so if are (f. pl) nisaa/oppressed or weak above two (f) falahunna/so to them (f. pl) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/is (f) whidatan one/single (f) so to her the half
415 and the ones whom they come the immorality from oppressed or weak yours
422 and not marry whom married your fathers from the oppressed or weak
423 prohibited over you your mothers ? and mothers nisakum/oppressed or weak yours
4129 and never you will be able that do justice between the oppressed or weak56 O you the ones who believe when you stand up to the prayer so wash your faces and your hands to the elbow and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles and if you are impure so purify yourselves and if you are sick or on journey or comes one from among you from the toilet or you touched the oppressed or weak? ?
654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the time or place of war from nisakum/oppressed or weak yours if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles and the ones (f) not yaid'na menstruate? and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier
y d = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 3231 , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. , inf. n. and (S, Msb, K) and , (Aboo-Is-h?k, K,) said of a woman, (S, A, Msb, K,) She menstruated; i. e. her blood flowed; (A or blood came forth from her womb; (Mgh as also or this latter signifies she likened herself to the . (TA.) -b2- Also She attained the age of menstruation. (TA.) -b3- , (S, A, Msb,) aor. as above, (Msb,) inf. n. , (S, Msb,) The flowed with, (S,) or emitted, (A,) a matter resembling blood; (S, A flowed with its gum (Msb) the matter which it emits is called ; and is applied to the head of a new-born infant to scare away the j?nn, or genii. (A, TA ) -b4- The torrent overflowed; or poured out, or forth, from fullness; or ran; syn. . (TA.) 2 He attributed to the woman. (Msb.) -b2- , (TK,) inf. n., (Sgh, K,) Tempore men- struorum inivit ancillam suam. (Sgh, K, TK.) -b3- , (TK,) inf. n. as above, (K,) He made the water to flow. (K, TA.)
5 see 1. -b2- Also She abstained form prayer (ة during the days of her ; (S, Msb, K, TA waiting for the stopping of the bloodTA) or she abstained, and did as the does (A, * Mgh) or she reckoned herself , and did as the does. (TA.) 10 , (S, Mgh, Msb,) in the pass. form, (Msb,) with damm to the , (Mgh,) found in the handwriting of Aboo-Zekereey? , (TA,) She continued to have a flow of blood (S, Mgh) after her days (S) or she had an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb) or her blood flowed without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (TA.) . -b2- A thing which flows from the , resembling . (Mgh.) A single time, or turn, of menstruation, or of the flow of the menstrual blood (S, * A, * Mgh, Msb *) pl. ; (A, Msb like as is pl. of , and of , and of , and of ; though by rule it should be . (Msb.) You say, and and . (A.) -b2- As used by the professors of practical law, The accustomed days thereof. (Mgh.) -b3- Also A single flow pl. . (TA.) the subst. from (S, K, TA) or a mode, or manner, or state, of (Msb) or the state (Mgh, TA) of the , (TA,) which is one of avoidance (Mgh, TA) of prayer and fasting and the like (Mgh) pl.. (S, Msb.) -b2- Also The menstrual blood; the blood of menstruation; and so and . (TA.) -b3- Also The piece of rag which the binds over her vulva; (S, Mgh, * Msb, * K and so (S) which latter also signifies a piece of rag thrown away (TA) pl. of the latter, . (S, TA.) see . , applied to a woman, act. part. n. from ; (S, Mgh, Msb, K thus, because it is an epithet of particular application ; (Msb and with ', being like and &c.; (TA and in like manner also, (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) on the authority of Fr (S) pl. (of the former, Msb) , (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) like as is pl. of , (Msb,) and , like as is pl. of , (TA,) and of the latter, , (Msb,) or . (S, Mgh, K.) -b2- In a certain trad., in which it is said that God will not accept the prayer of a unless she be with a , this does not mean one who is menstruating while actually occupied by prayer, (Msb, TA, *) but One who has attained to the age of menstruation; (TA or one who has attained to womanhood (Mgh) or it has not this meaning; for if it had, one would understand that a girl not arrived at puberty might pray with her head uncovered, which is not the case; but it means the menstruating kind, whether she have attained to puberty or not; as though the term female had been used in its place. (Msb.) is a simple subst. as well as an inf. n. (Zj, K) as the former, it is a n. of place; and as such it is used in the Kur ii. 222; meaning A woman's ; (Zj her ; (Mgh because it is the place of . (Zj, Mgh.) Some say that is hence derived; because the water flows to the (Az, K) for the Arabs put in the place of , and in that of. (Az, TA.) -b2- It is also a n. of time . (TA.) -b3- See also . -b4- When it is a simple subst., it has a pl., namely . (TA.) see . A woman continuing to have a flow of blood after her days (S) or having an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb) or having her blood flowing without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (K, * TA.)
An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.
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Salaam Everyone,
I will state this again in clearer terms so that I am not misunderstood this time. I am having a discussion with WAKAS and HE is the person I have chosen to have my discussion with. If anyone else here shares the same views and understandings of 4/1 - 4/3 as Wakas, then if those understandings that you all have in common with him are dissected, analyzed and proven faulty in MY and WAKAS' discussion then you will receive the same answer to your questions as him.
Wakas,
Damon,
Let's tackle this one point at a time
I have two problems with these words of yours. First Problem; it appears that you are trying to decide how this discussion will proceed and WHICH POINTS are to be discussed. I have always had a problem with this when you participate in a "discussion". Second Problem; You are attempting to decide which points are to be discussed WITHOUT answering ANY of the questions I asked you in my last reply. Not even one. BUT, you come back with a post asking someone else to answer Your Questions. I already pointed out to you earlier that I have a problem with you doing this because I see this as Manipulating the direction and the TERMS of the discussion and whoever does the manipulating of a discussion will manipulate it to where everyone MUST answer all of his questions while he himself Does Not have to answer the other person's questions or at best Choosing which questions to answer and which questions to ignore. I don't mind tackling one point at a time, but they cannot be only Your Points. Let us address ALL OF THE POINTS put on the table in this discussion.
Damon's view the ones doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 are "an-nisa".
Wakas' view the one doing the action of the verb "taba" in 43 is MOST LIKELY the one determining suitablity/pleasingThere can only be a few possibilities
the one determining suitability/pleasing (for nikah)
the people
the yateem
the nisa
or some other optionI hope you don't mind that I underlined and placed in all capitals your two words Most Likely. First of all, this is why I mentioned the words Conjecture and Guesswork earlier on because these words of yours such as It CAN mean this and Most Likely are essentially the arena of conjecture because these words demonstrate that you have not proven beyond the shadow of doubt that it DOES mean this. And by using the words Most Likely shows you haven't demonstrated that It Definitely Is. Secondly Wakas, You Contradict Yourself and set a double standard with your insistence on Most Likely. Do you remember when I made my comment in This Post ? I'll repeat my comment from that post
As far as the possibility of the word Nisaa' developing independently or being a borrowed word it is highly, HIGHLY unlikely that the Arabs would have had to Borrow a foreign expression for one of the most COMMON words in any language.
And here is what you said to me in This Reply made by you
Re my point 3
By your use of "highly unlikely" you indirectly admit what I said is possible. Even though your "highly unlikely" is CONJECTURE,You contradicted yourself Wakas and YOU admit yourself that using these terms such as "highly unlikely" is Conjecture and I told you from the beginning of this conversation that you are relying your own conjecture concerning 4/3. I don't feel the need to point out whenever you contradict yourself because my arguments aren't based on rather or not you contradict yourself. However, since you pointed earlier what is to you a contradiction, I just thought it fair to let you know that you are contradicting yourself here. NOW, we can look at 4/3 and figure out who is performing the verb "Taaba"
I think this request of yours is reasonable "how 2nd person pronouns can perform a 3rd person verb or vice versa" - I haven't studied it, but we can look to Quran for examples or explanations. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.
This is why I told you earlier in this thread that you have to pay particular attention to the preposition in this verse. In fact, I made the statement that understanding the function this word plays in the verse is the 'key' to understanding WHO Taaba is referring to. But in your quest to win an argument (instead of ascertaining the truth) you TOTALLY IGNORED what I said, when I said it and that is because you are too busy listening to someone who you seem to think is an expert grammarian when that person also totally misses/ignores the function of in this verse and for the same reasons you are missing and ignoring it.
I'll repeat what I said in This Post
the word MIN is the KEY to determining WHO is being referred to with the word Taaba
Another one from that same post
You should keep in mind that Taaba is referring to those who are MIN AN-NISAA'
I tried my best to get you to look at this word and the function it plays in this verse. Now, there are FOUR things that I need to mention concerning the word so we can determine HOW
1). First thing I should not have to mention again because I provided the references and page numbers of at least two Books of Arabic Grammar which MENTION and EXPLAIN the ... construct in an Arabic sentence. Example Arabic sentences are provided in each book to illustrate the grammatical rule. These are the grammar books and the information in them that I have used to establish the existence and function of the ... construct in 4/3. Please keep in mind this construct has the word as part of the clause and I am stating again knowing the place and meaning of this word is KEY in understanding who is referring to in 4/3
2). Second thing I think is pretty easy to establish is that is in the 2nd person while is in the 3rd person. I have yet be presented with a grammatical explanation or grammar reference to explain HOW on earth a 3rd person verb is performed by the the 2nd person. It is your claim that is somehow masculine 2nd person perfect. I do know that there is a masculine 2nd person perfect plural for and if I'm not mistaken it is "Ttibtoom" and this word is non existent in 4/3. And like I said, we will need an explanation and/or a grammar reference to justify the 2nd person performing a 3rd person verb.
3). Third thing; having made mention of the ... clause, I think it is important to look at the MEANING and USES of the word .
This is from page 542 of Abdul Mannan Omar's Dictionary of The Holy Quran
Proposition used for expressing starting point, PART OF A WHOLE, ORIGIN AS, FROM, OF SOME, AMONGST.
And here is what John Penrice said on page 140 of his Dictionary and Glossary of The Koran
A preposition signifying ORIGIN, COMPOSITION, explanation, commencement, or separation.
So one glaring and overwhelming connotation that is established that of being FROM or AMONG/AMONGST or FROM AMONG
4). Having shown the MEANINGS of this word, we see these meanings in actual usage in 10/83, 2/253, 2/74 and 2/105 (just to name a few exemplary verses) to mean from or among or from among, etc. 21/97 uses it to mean "OF" which isn't at all a far divergence of the other meanings just mentioned. And If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be a fan of Muhammad Asad and his translation and commentary of The Quran. You should read his translation of 14/34 and footnote 47 of this verse where he says literally means "Out Of" and, in this context, "Something Out Of".
So, taking these four points and putting them all together, we should look at 4/3 and realize something very important and I am going to put it in very simple language so you can understand it. is in the 2nd person by virtue of the address (an address from 1st person to 2nd person). Regardless of the man made theory of some kind of shift in addressee, the fact remains that we have no substantial evidence to prove this and there is no substantial evidence which shows a shift of address from to someone else. The only thing you provide to try to support this claim is a link to a traditional muslim explaining the very thing I reject and he himself has no proof for. And I think it to be pretty amazing that the only links I ever provided throughout this entire discussion are references to Books of Arabic Grammar. Other than the link to the manmade "shift of address" theory, the only other links you send my way are links to ad hominem, logical fallacy, argument from ignorance, etc. No Quranic or Arabic Grammatical links, only wikipedia links for with your accusations of logical fallacies, argument out of ignorance, etc. If this is a Quranic and Arabic discussion you should provide references pertaining to Quran and Arabic. And as a side note, everytime you are pointing a finger at someone, there are three more fingers pointing right back at you. As they say, the BEST way to take the attention from what you do is to constantly accuse other people of doing it.
But, staying on topic; We see that are the addressees and is in the 2nd person. No change of address between 4/1 and 4/3. Just like is in the 2nd person in 4/1, so too , , , , , and are ALL in the 2nd person in 4/3. Thus, these 2nd person plural pronouns are referring to a 2nd person audience being addressed. The ONLY second person audience being DIRECTLY ADDRESSED BY NAME is in 4/1 and there is nothing between 4/1 and 4/3 which shows any switch or shift of any kind to another 2nd person audience other than .
Now, as you have already admitted more than once, is in the 3rd person. , just like the verb , is ALSO in the 3rd person and I say this because it is clear to everyone that is being Talked About. And they are being talked about to the 2nd person addressees which is . I am asking how, HOW can a 3rd person verb be carried out by a group who is in the 2nd person??? This is YOUR claim and YOUR belief, but you NEVER ONCE gave any evidence or reference to support this belief/claim and you NEVER explaned it yourself how this can occur. So, I'll say it again... has the meaning of from, among, from among, of, out of, etc. particularly when it precedes a noun just like it does in 10/83, 2/105, 2/74 AND 4/3 WHERE WE HAVE MIN AN-NISAA'!!
Is there any possible way to make it more clearer than this??
I also asked a reasonable request of you which was "If Quran is your ultimate criterion, if you know of an example in it wherein the one doing a masculine singular verb is "an-nisa" please bring it forth." - again, we can look to Quran to see if it has such examples. If not, is this explained elsewhere in grammar books for example.
If you would be reasonable and honest, you would see that very example from The Quran which is the verse we are discussing.
Now Wakas, I had asked you a few questions in my last reply to you and they went unanswered.
For now, I'll just stick with one question and get back to the rest of them later...
You keep repeating that a masculine plural can be used for an all male group of people AS WELL AS a mixed group of people that are male and female. You and I both acknowledge this. My Question To You is when you use the masculine plural yourself OR you come across the masculine plural through reading a text How Do You Know which group of people the masculine plural is referring to? If it is used for PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS it will be referring to one of those two groups. So how DO YOU ascertain WHICH GROUP the masculine plural is referring to?
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Salaam Everyone,
I will state this again in clearer terms so that I am not misunderstood this time. I am having a discussion with WAKAS and HE is the person I have chosen to have my discussion with. If anyone else here shares the same views and understandings of 4/1 - 4/3 as Wakas, then if those understandings that you all have in common with him are dissected, analyzed and proven faulty in MY and WAKAS' discussion then you will receive the same answer to your questions as him.
But I don't share the same views. '(
Anywho, nevermind. I tried. giveup
Peace.
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Peace )
I am going to read through it again. Thank you for providing a more in depth explanation! I appreciate it.
Peace all,
Peace Released!
I only understood partially since I'm a beginner. )
But I will try to explain what I understood and why it intrigued me. And don't worry about being slow. It took me about four times to read it (which ended up being, like, 20 minutes), while looking at the translation I have of the Quran.Here's Bender's quote
Now here's the FM translation for 434
434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.Notice
AlRi-jaal | men
qawwamoona | to support
AlNisa | women
AlSalihatu | womenWhen reading this verse in English, we would assume that "women" meant "women" and that they were the same word; however, looking at the Arabic, they're not the same!
If the standard translation = "the men are to support the women" then what happens when they don't? They are no longer Al-Rijaal? So they've lost their masculinity and became females? Or perhaps they turned into babies? Maybe cats?
Maha gave us an alternative to what these words might mean
This makes sense to me BUT when I apply this meaning to other verses, it does not make sense. The italics are mine
443 O you who believe, do not approach the salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the weaker Nas, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.If "Nisa" means weaker society who needs care/charity, why are we washing after contacting them? Are they dirty while the leaders are clean?
56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had "intercourse", then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had "sexual contact" with the weaker NAS, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
So now we're putting dirt on ourselves after having sexual contact with weaker Nas? And also, why does "junuban" and "lmastumu" both mean some kind of sexual impurity when they're obviously different words?
2222 And they ask you about menstruation? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
Ok, earlier it was mentioned that "menstruation" is not the right translation here. So how am I to understand this?
Retire yourselves sexually = fa-i'tazil
Women = l-nisa
Approach = taqrabhunnaNone of these are the same words as "sexually" whatever in 443 and 56. Now I have absolutely no idea what to make of this verse except God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
So....Now what?
Peace Shirley,
For me, it is very difficult to follow the discussion because I'm very new at this "finding the Arabic root" thing. English is my only language. '(
You guys are discussing linguistics in depth and it is very hard for me to look at what you're referencing because then I have to utilize my brain to it's fullest extent trying to see where all the terms occur and at what level. I have no idea what an Arabic "Jussive mood" is or whatever or how words are feminine or masculine and whatever. I will eventually learn these things, of course, but I easily understand basic explanations of the subject. For instance, the post you began with was one that I understood fully. You showed instances where the word "Nisa" was used and why it cannot mean women and I picked up on that quickly.
But know the conversation has gotten a bit too specific for me. I need help understanding this and the only way for me to understand this is if you present a translation and then explain why that translation works. It is this method that I can understand and I know I can understand it because of reading several articles on free-minds that use this exact method (What's in the Name, Free Choice, etc).
So I'm sorry, I've tried to read the argument here but I cannot follow. So my experience reading this now is like reading a foreign language with a few accusative English words sprinkled in so that the only thing I understand is that you two are in a disagreement and accusing each other of certain things. For me, this is very frustrating to read and as you can see, it took me about 20 minutes or so to understand a simple explanation of linguistics in Bender's quote. I really need some help understanding. Perhaps you could PM me and others who want to know?
Peace and blessings Released, Shirley, and everyone here! yay
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Peace,
Shirley, I may be wrong, but do you want to have this discussion with Wakas exclusively? I felt like this wasn't made clear at the very start of the thread. So far, I've mainly been a spectator to this thread, but do you prefer that we all keep our questions to ourselves until both you and Wakas are finished?
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Salaam Inquisitivetrini and Released,
Please be patient with me. In the meantime, a lot can be revealed just by reading our discussion.
Shirley, I may be wrong, but do you want to have this discussion with Wakas exclusively? I felt like this wasn't made clear at the very start of the thread. So far, I've mainly been a spectator to this thread, but do you prefer that we all keep our questions to ourselves until both you and Wakas are finished?
If you'd like you can hold on to them for now or, if you'd prefer, you can post your questions and you have my word that I will address your questions once my discussion is concluded. I had promised StopS the same thing and I haven't forgotten my promise.
The reason I had made the decision to focus on Wakas is because there are a couple of people here who do share his views and for the same reason and they are posting the same beliefs that I am arguing against with Wakas. Instead of addressing three people individually, I'd rather focus on Wakas and in this way those other guys can watch how their beliefs (which they share with Wakas) are addressed through my discussion with him.
Salaam.
By the way, I am not Shirley. I am Shirley's husband and my name is Damon. I am posting using Shirley's account because I do not have an account of my own here.
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Peace Bob,
No offense, but neither of those sites look like reputable dictionaries. The second one looked really shady. Who created these dictionaries?
Also, I disagree that God would have had to used the ha-ya-dad for menstruation. ha-ya-dad is the root for mahid. I undertand it as how "sajada" is the root word for masjid. So, mahid is the actual word for menstruation, while ha-ya-dad is only the root, which means "to menstruate". Of course, "to menstruate" would not fit in here. As a result, God has chosen mahid.
Your other interpretations make little sense to me. I feel like I'm reading something that does not even relate to anything of relevance.
Another thing, are you saying that the word "al" before a word makes it very special? I don't agree with this approach either. Again, not sure if I understood you correctly. Please clarify further if I haven't understood you.
? The verse 2- 122 and above verse has a word , it is and the paradigm is . The meaning of the word can not be MENSTRUATION , The word for MENSTRAUTION is (If Allah tried to say menstruation, then why instead of the word is used?)
Also keep in mind this is a proper noun, ALMUKHAIZ, -how many different kind of menstruations does it exists, since Allah had to point out a specific kind of menstruation, THE MUKHAIZ, AL MUKHAIZ?Here one can see it is khaiz and Al khaiz for menstruation and not mukhaiz or almukhaiz.
http//mymemory.translated.net/t/English/Arabic/menstruation
different forms of the word, menstrual ?= khaizi NOT makhaizi
http//en.bab.la/dictionary/english-arabic/menstrual
wonder if Khaiz is even mentioned in the Quran?
Tthe word means the place or the time or the target of one of the meaning of is MENSSTRUATION while other meanings are blood like material coming out of the stem acacia tree ( ر, Water flows ( ء. So the meaning of is place or time when blood or water flows . Now keeping in view the context of war the simple meanings are the time or place of war.
Other objection to the traditional translation is the answer to the query about ,the answer is "painful". This answer is not correct about MENSTRUATION. Its only painful or disturbing to some ladies. This statement can not be taken categorical for all ladies. Hence It is again to be interpreted as condition of war. So never means keep yourself away from ladies but here it again means keep yourself away from the oppressed or weak people till they have cleared of the wrong thoughts and ideas. Once they are pure according to Quranic teachings then you may come to them according to the orders of Quran. Because God loves those who return to the right path and purifies.
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Peace Damon,
Fine. I won't address you. However, I will continue my discussions with the others. Especially Bob. He's making my head spin.
Salaam Inquisitivetrini and Released,
Please be patient with me. In the meantime, a lot can be revealed just by reading our discussion.
If you'd like you can hold on to them for now or, if you'd prefer, you can post your questions and you have my word that I will address your questions once my discussion is concluded. I had promised StopS the same thing and I haven't forgotten my promise.
The reason I had made the decision to focus on Wakas is because there are a couple of people here who do share his views and for the same reason and they are posting the same beliefs that I am arguing against with Wakas. Instead of addressing three people individually, I'd rather focus on Wakas and in this way those other guys can watch how their beliefs (which they share with Wakas) are addressed through my discussion with him.
Salaam.
By the way, I am not Shirley. I am Shirley's husband and my name is Damon. I am posting using Shirley's account because I do not have an account of my own here.
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Peace sister,
In regard to your other post, I read through it. Thanks for writing all that out for me. sun
On the topic of 434, I still hold the understanding that rijaal refers to the menfolk. The men are to be the protectors and supporters of women. This is what I believe to be a suggested norm. However, as we know, this may not always be the case. Still, the rijaal remain men of course, but unable to fulfill what God has guided them to do. Of course, there could be for a multitude of reasons as to why they are unable, and generally they are advised to protect and support their womenfolk. Now, I'm not sure if this always pertains to finances, I think it can mean different things for different people depending on circumstances. I'm not sure if I made sense. Please correct me if I've understood incorrectly. -[
Oh, and don't worry. I am also trying to follow along and wrap my mind around some of the technical word usage for Arabic grammar here. Also, there appears to be a variety of resources being used, all of which I do not have access to. However, I think that it's good that we're making an effort to learn and follow along. I believe that we will be rewarded for our efforts. May God guide us toward the truth in these interpretations.
But I don't share the same views. '(
Anywho, nevermind. I tried. giveup
Peace.
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Peace Bob, finally someone posts what they think the words actually mean. Thus according to Bob and Shirley (not sure about Shirley; refuses to post meanings) we can use simple word substitution to see if it makes sense?
2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations to nisakum/oppressed or weak yours?
2222 and they ask you about the time or place of war say it ailment so abandon al-nisaa the oppressed or weak in the time or place of war and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselves
2223 nisukum oppressed or weak yours a tillage for you so approach your tilt how you like ?
2226 to those who forswear from oppressed or weak theirs (m) waiting four ashr/cycles
2236 not blame over you if you divorce nisaa/the oppressed or weak what not you touched them...411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (f) so if are (f. pl) nisaa/oppressed or weak above two (f) falahunna/so to them (f. pl) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/is (f) whidatan one/single (f) so to her the half
415 and the ones whom they come the immorality from oppressed or weak yours
422 and not marry whom married your fathers from the oppressed or weak
423 prohibited over you your mothers ? and mothers nisakum/oppressed or weak yours
4129 and never you will be able that do justice between the oppressed or weak56 O you the ones who believe when you stand up to the prayer so wash your faces and your hands to the elbow and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles and if you are impure so purify yourselves and if you are sick or on journey or comes one from among you from the toilet or you touched the oppressed or weak? ?
654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the time or place of war from nisakum/oppressed or weak yours if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles and the ones (f) not yaid'na menstruate? and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier
y d = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 3231 , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. , inf. n. and (S, Msb, K) and , (Aboo-Is-h?k, K,) said of a woman, (S, A, Msb, K,) She menstruated; i. e. her blood flowed; (A or blood came forth from her womb; (Mgh as also or this latter signifies she likened herself to the . (TA.) -b2- Also She attained the age of menstruation. (TA.) -b3- , (S, A, Msb,) aor. as above, (Msb,) inf. n. , (S, Msb,) The flowed with, (S,) or emitted, (A,) a matter resembling blood; (S, A flowed with its gum (Msb the matter which it emits is called ; and is applied to the head of a new-born infant to scare away the j?nn, or genii. (A, TA ) -b4- The torrent overflowed; or poured out, or forth, from fullness; or ran; syn. . (TA.) 2 He attributed to the woman. (Msb.) -b2- , (TK,) inf. n., (Sgh, K,) Tempore men- struorum inivit ancillam suam. (Sgh, K, TK.) -b3- , (TK,) inf. n. as above, (K,) He made the water to flow. (K, TA.)
5 see 1. -b2- Also She abstained form prayer (ة during the days of her ; (S, Msb, K, TA waiting for the stopping of the bloodTA or she abstained, and did as the does (A, * Mgh or she reckoned herself , and did as the does. (TA.) 10 , (S, Mgh, Msb,) in the pass. form, (Msb,) with damm to the , (Mgh,) found in the handwriting of Aboo-Zekereey? , (TA,) She continued to have a flow of blood (S, Mgh) after her days (S or she had an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb or her blood flowed without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (TA.) . -b2- A thing which flows from the , resembling . (Mgh.) A single time, or turn, of menstruation, or of the flow of the menstrual blood (S, * A, * Mgh, Msb *) pl. ; (A, Msb like as is pl. of , and of , and of , and of ; though by rule it should be . (Msb.) You say, and and . (A.) -b2- As used by the professors of practical law, The accustomed days thereof. (Mgh.) -b3- Also A single flow pl. . (TA.) the subst. from (S, K, TA or a mode, or manner, or state, of (Msb or the state (Mgh, TA) of the , (TA,) which is one of avoidance (Mgh, TA) of prayer and fasting and the like (Mgh pl.. (S, Msb.) -b2- Also The menstrual blood; the blood of menstruation; and so and . (TA.) -b3- Also The piece of rag which the binds over her vulva; (S, Mgh, * Msb, * K and so (S which latter also signifies a piece of rag thrown away (TA pl. of the latter, . (S, TA.) see . , applied to a woman, act. part. n. from ; (S, Mgh, Msb, K thus, because it is an epithet of particular application ; (Msb and with ', being like and &c.; (TA and in like manner also, (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) on the authority of Fr (S pl. (of the former, Msb) , (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) like as is pl. of , (Msb,) and , like as is pl. of , (TA,) and of the latter, , (Msb,) or . (S, Mgh, K.) -b2- In a certain trad., in which it is said that God will not accept the prayer of a unless she be with a , this does not mean one who is menstruating while actually occupied by prayer, (Msb, TA, *) but One who has attained to the age of menstruation; (TA or one who has attained to womanhood (Mgh or it has not this meaning; for if it had, one would understand that a girl not arrived at puberty might pray with her head uncovered, which is not the case; but it means the menstruating kind, whether she have attained to puberty or not; as though the term female had been used in its place. (Msb.) is a simple subst. as well as an inf. n. (Zj, K as the former, it is a n. of place; and as such it is used in the Kur ii. 222; meaning A woman's ; (Zj her ; (Mgh because it is the place of . (Zj, Mgh.) Some say that is hence derived; because the water flows to the (Az, K for the Arabs put in the place of , and in that of. (Az, TA.) -b2- It is also a n. of time . (TA.) -b3- See also . -b4- When it is a simple subst., it has a pl., namely . (TA.) see . A woman continuing to have a flow of blood after her days (S or having an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb or having her blood flowing without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (K, * TA.)
An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.
Peace Noon,
THANK YOU for pasting each and every verse that I had a question in regard to. As we can see, this alternative definition does not appear to fit in well with quite a few of the verses.
See, we can raise as many questions as we want to in regard to the grammar, but things ultimately need to make sense when it comes down to 'crunch time'. 'Crunch time' = whether the alternative meaning makes sense for all of those verses.
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Damon,
A few points in brief
You claim I am trying to direct how this discussion will go, by somehow discussing my points only, when I in fact used the first point in your post prior, and besides, whom "taba" refers to is pertinent to BOTH of us. I am trying to keep it constructive, not fill it with diatribes unlike some.
You claim I am not answering your questions when I have been, and imply you have been answering mine when you haven't answered what I asked you in reply #5 in this thread.
You claim I am making contradiction/conjecture in what I say but it's clear you do not understand these terms. Use of "can" indicates it "can" mean X, i.e. it is possible, and when I use "most likely" (when it comes to MY VIEW) I am expressing my view, not what is the case, as you did when you said "highly unlikely" with regard to what we were discussing.
If you would be reasonable and honest, you would see that very example from The Quran which is the verse we are discussing.
You cannot use the example we are discussing to prove your point. This is commonly called circular reasoning / begging the question.
If you do not cite another verse, I will assume you cannot, thus making 43 the only example you have of this.Now onto our discussion
You said "It is your claim that is somehow masculine 2nd person perfect."
Incorrect. I even linked to corpus wherein it says "3rd person masculine singular perfect verb".
You even contradict yourself later on when you say "Now, as you have already admitted more than once, is in the 3rd person."I have no problem "min" meaning "from/of", i.e. a partitive.
Thank you for explaining your view of the addressee, and that of "taba". It was helpful. I asked forum member uq (whom I consider knowledgeable of Arabic) about this issue, and he said, I quote
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The pronoun "" is very occasionally used in the Classical language to refer to sentient beings, thus, being used in this manner, it has the equivalent signification to "". In 43, "" is the pronoun of "" (the women).
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It then follows that "" should reflect the gender of "" (which is a neuter), and so we read "" and not "" in description of "" (the women).
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So we end up with
"And if you fear(ed) that you will not be just with the orphans, then marry, of women, what please you two each, and three each, and four each..."
I then asked uq a clarifying question, as to whom was doing the doing verb "taba" and he said "the women".
So, he seems to agree with you that the ones doing the doing verb are "an-nisa" HOWEVER he explains why the use of masculine verb "taba" without having "an-nisa" to contain males, which seems to be the case you are wishing to make. Of course, I am aware that he did not provide a reference for "ma" very occasionally referring to sentient beings in Classical Arabic and/or Quran, so this needs to be looked into.
Earlier, Mazhar did not agree with you that "an-nisa" are the ones doing the doing verb.
Since you haven't provided your translation of this part of 43 it is hard to determine the validity of your proposal, not only grammatically, but I also mean logically/practically. Thus, at this stage I am inclined to agree with uq.
I am pondering over what Hoppean said also, because a possible problem that I can see, no matter how "an-nisa" is translated is that WHY are they (or some of them) the ones doing the doing verb "taba", i.e. how can one side of a contract determine suitability? Unless I'm thinking about the verb incorrectly or its somehow passive.
Ideally, I'd like to know the theoretical possibilities according to the Arabic, then weigh up each option and go with the most likely.
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Salaam Hoppean,
Thanks for the input. In regards to what "taba" refers to I found what you said interesting.
I dont see 517 as an example, as ideally the term "an-nisa" should be used with a masculine singular verb. An explicit example of this would help, if it exists.
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Peace Released,
In regard to your other post, I read through it. Thanks for writing all that out for me. sun
No problem at all. I hope I explained my understanding in a way that made sense! >.<
On the topic of 434, I still hold the understanding that rijaal refers to the menfolk. The men are to be the protectors and supporters of women. This is what I believe to be a suggested norm. However, as we know, this may not always be the case. Still, the rijaal remain men of course, but unable to fulfill what God has guided them to do. Of course, there could be for a multitude of reasons as to why they are unable, and generally they are advised to protect and support their womenfolk. Now, I'm not sure if this always pertains to finances, I think it can mean different things for different people depending on circumstances. I'm not sure if I made sense. Please correct me if I've understood incorrectly. -[
Oh. I get what you're saying. Nevermind, then. ;D
Thanks for clearing that up for me!Oh, and don't worry. I am also trying to follow along and wrap my mind around some of the technical word usage for Arabic grammar here. Also, there appears to be a variety of resources being used, all of which I do not have access to. However, I think that it's good that we're making an effort to learn and follow along. I believe that we will be rewarded for our efforts. May God guide us toward the truth in these interpretations.
Indeed.
Peace! yay
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Wakas,
You claim I am making contradiction/conjecture in what I say but it's clear you do not understand these terms. Use of "can" indicates it "can" mean X, i.e. it is possible, and when I use "most likely" (when it comes to MY VIEW) I am expressing my view, not what is the case, as you did when you said "highly unlikely" with regard to what we were discussing.
AGAIN, DOUBLE STANDARDS WAKAS!!! When I used the term "highly, HIGHLY Unlikely" I TOO used them to express my view just like you used the words "most likely" and "can" to express your view. You said "likely" and I said "UN-likely" which is the same you used but with opposite meaning due to the prefix "UN". So, this statement of yours is a contradiction all in itself. If you're going to claim it isn't a contradiction, I'll just have to call it what it really is, Double Standard!! You can use those words to express your view and it is not conjecture. BUT, when I also use words that are NOT definitive but express MY VIEW, then all of a sudden it is conjecture. This statement of yours is an attempt to justify your double standard and this is EXACTLY what I have been saying concerning certain tactics you like to pull when you're debating with others. Because Winning An Argument/Debate is your ultimate goal, certain tactics will have to be employed to give you a bigger chance of winning.
Just so you know, my words "highly unlikely" is a NON definitive statement and in your estimation that makes me guilty of conjecture. When you used your terms "can" and "most likely", you used NON definitive statements. So you conjectured AND set a double standard. Just saying
You cannot use the example we are discussing to prove your point. This is commonly called circular reasoning / begging the question.
If you do not cite another verse, I will assume you cannot, thus making 43 the only example you have of this.CAN and HAVE. Question is WHY am I using the verse itself that is under discussion to prove my grammatical analysis? Because, one, the grammatical analysis I gave is based on the rules of Arabic Language. The Quran is written in the Arabic Language. Secondly, I provided the definition of a 'key' preposition used in the verse under discussion and I told you how it means "from, among, etc." when this preposition precedes a noun. And just so you know, the noun it precedes can be definite or indefinite. Third of all, I have done what you have asked concerning cross referencing of an important word that is in the verse under question. I have done that by providing a minute sampling of verses (form among many by the way) in The Quran that definitively use this preposition according to the definition and usage I explained. This is what we do when we use what I call Tasreeful Ayaat. It is cross referencing. In your explanation on how to use Project Root List, under the heading of Which Root Meaning Is Correct you give the advice of checking the occurences of relevant words within the verse under discussion to make sure that they are used accurately
Crucial or relevant words within these verses should be checked to make sure they have been used accurately.
I consider this sound advice and I personally endorse it. No where in your article do you make reference that ONLY THE WORD being disuputed should be cross referenced because I think you know to make such a statement would be highly illogical. Also, for the record, the advice you give in this introductory article is advice that You Yourself are not following!!
Don't draw something out that is not there. When you have to embellish on a word to make it mean what you think it means, most chances are it doesn't mean that. The connection should be clear. Get solid evidence to demonstrate that a word may not mean what many think it to mean.
1). Don't draw something out that is not there. Even though a certain here is using words such as "Can mean this" to draw something out in 4/3 that is not there.
2). Embellishing on a word. This advice comes from someone who is using the excuse that Lane's says the word Naas can "sometimes" be used for all men EVEN THOUGH this word is NEVER used in such a way in The Quran and NEITHER is it used in such a way in actual Arabic.
3). The connection should be clear. Again, coming from someone who wants to think that the audience addressed in 4/3 "can be" an all male audience. Someone who wants to make himself believe in shift in addressee WITHOUT the new addressee being announced and the connection made clear!!
4). Evidence has been placed before this same person to demonstrate that a word does not mean what HE and MANY OTHERS THINK it to mean. He has put up a brick wall defense because he made up his mind that he WANTS to believe something and he is not budging from that position.You said "It is your claim that is somehow masculine 2nd person perfect."
Incorrect. I even linked to corpus wherein it says "3rd person masculine singular perfect verb".
You even contradict yourself later on when you say "Now, as you have already admitted more than once, is in the 3rd person."Not incorrect, CORRECT!! Do you know why? Because it is YOU who is claiming that the verb "Taaba" (which is a 3rd person verb) is somehow being performed by a 2nd Person Audience-The Addressees. The ONLY way The 2nd person can perform a 3rd person verb is if you somehow try to make the 3rd person verb to be INTERPRETED as being actually a verb in the 2nd person. You have made the CLAIM and the INTERPRETATION when you said that the 2nd Person Party being ADDRESSED (in this case of 4/3, the addresses are khiftoom, tuqsitoo, Ankihoo and lakum) are the people who are performing the 3rd Person Verb Taaba!! So to hold this claim and this view, you are officially interpreting "Taaba" as Somehow being a 2nd person perfect verb (or you may even be interpreting it to be a 2nd person IMPERFECT verb, either way it is false).
Secondly, I have to ask how many times I need to inform you that I am not interested in your corpus quran project. Please drill this into your gray matter. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN IT!!!!! If you want to send me to an actual Arabic Grammar Book then I WILL check it out. But I am not interested in a website that is not a Grammar book. It is very clear to me that this is ONE of your sources for Quran and Arabic, the other source being people whom you deem to be authorities.
Thirdly, please quote me where I said "Taaba" was anything but a 3rd person masculine verb. You claim I contradict myself. Quote Please.
Thank you for explaining your view of the addressee, and that of "taba". It was helpful. I asked forum member uq (whom I consider knowledgeable of Arabic) about this issue,
Well, well, well. Exhibit "A" Ladies and Gentlemen!! Here you are AGAIN Wakas running to other people to help yo out with your "debate" against me. And, once again, it is someone whom you consider knowledgable of Arabic!! I don't know who this uq person is, but you said this person is a forum member. I did a search and I came up with NOTHING as far as a forum member with the name "uq". I can't help but to suspect that uq is the initials for Understand Quran. So I did another search on this term and again I got NOTHING as far as a member is concerned. I only got some posts to where the words understand quran are mentioned in context of understanding the book itself. Tell me Wakas, is this uq person the one who runs the site Understand Quran?? I would really, really, really like an answer to this question. At one point in time you and I were members of the now defunct Quran Institute forum that was run by Brother Liaquat Ali. The person from the Understand Quran website was a fellow forum member. His actual name is Abdulazeez Abdulraheem but as a forum member of quran institute forum he used the screen name Understand Quran!!
Please tell me Wakas if this is the person you are referring to as "uq"? If so, there are two problems with this. I'll tell you what those problems are if you confirm that he is indeed the person you are referring to.
and he said, I quote
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The pronoun "" is very occasionally used in the Classical language to refer to sentient beings, thus, being used in this manner, it has the equivalent signification to "". In 43, "" is the pronoun of "" (the women).
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It then follows that "" should reflect the gender of "" (which is a neuter), and so we read "" and not "" in description of "" (the women).
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So we end up with
"And if you fear(ed) that you will not be just with the orphans, then marry, of women, what please you two each, and three each, and four each..."
I then asked uq a clarifying question, as to whom was doing the doing verb "taba" and he said "the women".
Question Wakas. Have I referred to another person or sent you to another person at any point in our discussion? I don't recall ever doing so. Why are you putting people over the Language itself and the Grammar books outlining the rules and structure of this language? Why are you abandoning your Study Quran slogan of Why ask a student when you can learn from The Teacher? The Grammar books are available to TEACH us Arabic Grammar. Those books are the grammatical teachers. The Quran is attempting to TEACH its readers concepts that are to be grasped and implemented. The Quran is the socio-political TEACHER. But you keep referring to STUDENTS and not the teachers. From this point onwards I will ignore anything else you have to say about people you have consulted. It is amazing that you paint yourself to be this bright, heavy, intellectual scholarly type person but you have to keep consulting other people for help in your debate with me. All of this debating with people you do on this forum and telling other people about logical fallacies, lack of evidence, ad hominem, wikipedia links, blah, blah, blah and this same intellectual debater HAS to consult other people while debating me.
But I will address your consultant's views for the final time but I am making it clear that you would do a better and more appropriate job of you use the grammar books instead of people with traditionalist views. If you point something out to me in the grammar books and what is in the grammar book is definitively in The Quran I will gladly restructure my understandings.
So, he seems to agree with you that the ones doing the doing verb are "an-nisa" HOWEVER he explains why the use of masculine verb "taba" without having "an-nisa" to contain males, which seems to be the case you are wishing to make. Of course, I am aware that he did not provide a reference for "ma" very occasionally referring to sentient beings in Classical Arabic and/or Quran, so this needs to be looked into.
Please go through the Books of Arabic Grammar and provide us with a reference. Thanks. And just to make myself clear, I DO NOT view An-Nisaa' is being a group of females. So I DO NOT see "Taaba" being performed by a group of females. I see An-Nisaa' as being a group of males and females and so I see the 3rd person masculine Verb "Taaba" being performed by a group of males and females. If you go to page 62 of the book Arabic Verbs and Essentials of Grammar you will see the authors reiterated what they had said earlier on page 15 and what Haywood said in his book A New Arabic Grammar and that is the masculine plural is used for a group of people that is mixed male and female and there is the reason why the verb "Taaba" is in the 3rd person MASCULINE because it is now Grammatically Obvious That the group of people who are designated with the Collective Group Title of An-Nisaa' are NOT a group of females. And I am emphasizing the terms Collective, Group and Collective Title for a reason which I will expound upon a bit later. It's important to keep this in mind.
But when a masculine plural OR a masculine verb is used for a group of people, that means the group of people can be ONLY ONE or the other
1). A group of males.
2). Mixed group of males AND females.But there is NEVER a third possibility of the group of people being an all female group. The masculine plural and masculine verbs ARE NOT USED for a group of people who are all females. If the group of people is entirely female then the FEMININE plural and FEMININE verb are applied to them, not the masculine.
You are still bugged over the question WHY the plural feminine in "sadaqatiheen" and the feminine word "waahidatan" are used in 4/4 and 4/3 respectively. I am telling you that you must first look at 4/3 AND 24/31 to see how the word Nisaa' is being used. It would be extremely illogical (and quite sick) to continue to translate Nisaa' to mean women once you understand all of the grammar rules that we have covered so far. Even without going over the grammar rules we just mentioned, COMMON SENSE should compel people to ask themselves HOW and WHY the MOMENAAAT (which IS an a group entirely of females) in 24/31 are asked to cover and relax their sexual ornamentation when they are around Nisaa'iheeb which the traditional translations of Nisaa' would make Nisaa'heen to mean Their Women or even THEIR WIVES!!; since this is another mistranslation they like to give to this word. So I am asking you to first acknowledge that An-Nisaa' IS NOT a group of females. Once that is acknowledged, we can then tackle this mystery of why "wahidatan" and "sadaqatiheen" are used in 4/3 and 4/4. If you wish NOT to acknowledge this and want to hold on to a belief that was just grammatically dismantled, then there is nothing more that I or anyone else can do for you. If a person so badly WANTS to believe something that isn't there, he will continue to formulate all sorts of concoctions to justify to himself this belief he cherishes. But if you wish not to acknowledge that the word Nisaa' is grammatically proven not to be females then go to William Wright's Arabic Grammar bookn and find the grammar rule yourself as to WHY those two feminine terms are employed for The Nisaa'.
Earlier, Mazhar did not agree with you that "an-nisa" are the ones doing the doing verb.
And for the final time Wakas, Mazhar IS NOT an authority on Arabic Language or The Quran. I'm not interested in what any 3rd party says, rather it be mazhar, this uq person you mentioned, M.A.S. Abdel Haleem or whoever else. I am interested with seeing YOU prove your caims concerning 4/1 - 4/3. I am discussing this WITH YOU. YOU are making claims and statements about 4/3 so I am asking YOU to please grammatically and logically prove your claims. If you are going to continue to consult other people, perhaps it would be best that you don't mention them. Just mention the grammatical understanding they have and if you share the same understanding, present it to me as if it is yours. This way, if the understanding is grammatically proven to be incorrect, then YOURS as well as YOUR CONSULTANTS' views will be addressed at the same time. BUT THEN AGAIN.....by presenting them as Someone Else's Views/Understandings, if they are proven incorrect it would be those third parties who are proven wrong and not you. Am I right Wakas?
Since you haven't provided your translation of this part of 43 it is hard to determine the validity of your proposal, not only grammatically, but I also mean logically/practically.
It is my personal understanding (based upon my own research into this word) that the word Nisaa' does not come from the Arabic word Niswatan because that word (just like Nisaa' appears to me to be the only word in the entire Arabic Dictionary to be the Sole Anomaly that we are discussing. Secondly, the letter Hamza (which is a letter in the word Nisaa' IS NOT in the word Niswatan. This is what I was trying to say to Huruf who jumped down my throat for whatever reason. But the word Niswatan has the letter Waw as the third root letter which make this word what they call a defective verb. From what I have ascertained in my Arabic studies, when a defective verb is used as a derivative the final letter waw does not drop out entirely but as characterized by either a long vowel (aa, oo and ee) or a dipthong (aaey or aaow). I have not come across where it is taught that a Hamza can be placed at the end of a derived form of a defective verb. I could be incorrect and if I am incorrect I am humbly asking you to correct me. I do accept correction especially when it is clear and concrete.
However, looking at the actual SPELLING of the word Nisaa', I DO FIND this word listed under the entry for Nasiya which means to be forgetful, to forget and to be OBLIVIOUS. This is the defintion Hans Wehr gives. I'm sure you are aware what it means to be oblivious. It is to be unmindful OR unaware of what is happening to you or around you. To be ignorant of your own social or personal condition. Under this same entry, Hans Wehr gives Nasiy, Nasyan and NISAA' to all mean oblivious.
We have to look at the context of 4/1 through 4/3 and we will see that the context is the address of people/mankind (An-Naas) being instructed on how to better the conditions of those who are left alone in society to fend for themselves and who can use a helping hand (Al Yatamaa). An-Naas are told in 4/3 if they have a fear among them or within them that THEY (AS A WHOLE) will not be able to uphold justice then here is what you can do instead. Notice how it just says JUSTICE/EQUITY but not justice for a certain group of people. It only mentions practicing JUSTICE/EQUITY and since no one in particular is named or pointed to after mentioning this it means justice and equity in general...or in other words JUSTICE FOR ALL!!
So An-Naas (the PEOPLE) are instructed (by way of the imperative 'Ankihoo) to BOND or MAKE A SOCIAL CONTRACT with those people FROM AMONG THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OBLIVIOUS/NOT AWARE of the social and political landscape and how they fit in it. I base THIS UNDERSTANDING on what is said in 4/2 when AN-NAAS are told to HAND OVER to Al-Yatamaa what is their due rights. AN-NAAS (the people) are told to NOT exchange what is just and correct for that which is unjust and incorrect and to not monopolize for themselves the wealth, resources and equal opportunities that should naturally be theirs (al yatamaa). And to exchange what is just and correct for that which is unjust and incorrect and to monopolize and take strictly for yourself and your social group the resources, wealth and basic life amenities that the Yatamaa also have just due rights to is a very gross travesty against the human being. ALL HUMAN BEINGS!! This is the understanding I get from 4/2
If YOU, Wakas, are socially placed among a group of people who are routinely denied equal employment opportunities, access to the natural resources that are available on this earth and are meant to be fairly distributed among ALL HUMAN BEINGS and denied a voice which can allow you and your social group to be granted these things, then you and your social group are left alone to somehow fend for yourselves. And the fact that this socio-economic condition even extists (and which is set up by human beings and used to suppress and oppres other human beings) is a great, great travesty pepretrated against humanity. If you don't see your condition as being a problem and are unaware of what is rightfully yours and that what IS rightfully yours is being denied to you then you are not only someone who has to somehow make his own way in this world )al yatamaa) but you are also OBLIVIOUS and TOTALLY UNAWARE of the socio-economic landscape that has been shaped by wicked people and where you fit in in this landscape.
An-Naas (mankind/people/human beings) are invited to establish their society based upon the SYSTEM which The Quran outlines. This will be a process. In order to start the process of alleviating this situation, human beings are told in 4/3 to take up under their wing some people who are fit in a "Sub Group" of the overall group of Yatamaa. The Nisaa' are oblivious to the fact that they have been socio-economically manuevered into being left as sheep in a world of wolves. Notice how 4/3 mentions nothing about money or finances. It is my understanding that to establish this 'Bond' , this 'Contract' is to give assistance to them not only economically (if you are able to do so), but socially, intellectually, morally, educationally and most important politically. 4/3 says mathnaa, thulaatha and rubaa'a which the traditonalists translate as two, three or four (meaning up to for women to marry...aka polygamy). I think someone else here already mentioned that these words ARE NOT the cardinal numbers of 2, 3 and 4. The Cardinal numbers of two, three and four are athnaan (2), thalathat (3) and arba'a (4). These cardinal numbers ARE NOT what is written in 4/3. These numbers are made into a derived form that is meant to convey a Plural context. Because of this, some people who believe this verse is talking about polygamy translate mathnaa, thulaatha and rubaa'a to mean two's, three's and four's and this means (to them) to marry or marry off two at a time or three at a time or four at a time. I agree with the two at a time, three at a time or four at a time but I don't agree that it is talking about marriage because the word that definitively means marriage in a male to female bond of love and attraction is Zawaaj ( as I pointed out earlier ). But the word that is used in 4/3 is Nikaah (fa'ankihoo) and that word does not definitevly mean marriage and neither is the word used among the rabs for marriage. But I do know that Arabs who are TRADITIONAL MUSLIMS use this term for marriage. But the problem with this is that Traditional Muslims aren't the only Arabs in the world. What about other Muslims in Arab lands who seem to be just fine with the word Zawaaj for matrimony? What about the Arabs who are NOT muslim who too use the term Zawaaj?
Anyway, because it is a NIKAAH (which means it IS a social contract) the people are expected to fullfil the agreed upon terms of this social contract. If you feel as though you are able to divide up your time, your persons and your resources then by all means make a social contract with two people or three people or even four people. But if you feel as though that you will not be able to EVENLY and FAIRLY divide your time, energy, resources and personal attention among all four or all three or both of the two, then it would be best to have this bonding contract with just one person from this group of people who are CALLED/COLLECTIVELY TITLED An-Nisaa'. In this way you yourself will not be practicing an unintentional injustice by giving more of yourself to someone than you give to others in the group.
THIS is how I UNDERSTAND 4/3. I am not giving you a word for word translation or breakdown because you already know how I am against what you would call a word for word Literal translation of The Quran because it is not the words that are what's important but the CONCEPTS that these words are giving us. I prefer to share how I understand the concepts of the Quranic vocabulary and in this way any person here can read, understand and absorb these concepts and put it into their own words in a way that they would better understand the concepts. This is one of the problems that come with translations of The Quran. At the end of the day, even if the translator correctly understands the concepts of the Arabic words they still have to somehow convey those concepts to the readers of their translation and if they do not choose the right words to convey the concepts, the translation will fail to reach the reader in the way that is hoped by the translator. So PLEASE look at my UNDERSTANDING of 4/3 and keep in mind the grammatical exercises we have already been through and you will see why I am against your understanding of polygamy and why I understand in the way that I do.
I am pondering over what Hoppean said also, because a possible problem that I can see, no matter how "an-nisa" is translated is that WHY are they (or some of them) the ones doing the doing verb "taba", i.e. how can one side of a contract determine suitability? Unless I'm thinking about the verb incorrectly or its somehow passive.
One of the basic meanings of the root word "Taaba" is to be AGREEABLE. You can find this word "agreeable" Hans Wehr, Abdul Mannan Omar, John Penrice and Lane's under the entry for "Taaba". So, there's the WORD agreeable, but what is more important is the CONCEPT. The concept is that of a person who willingly agrees to something or does not object to a possible agreement. So yes, a nikaah is a social contract and the terms of a contract have to be mutually agreed upon by all parties involved, but I want you to keep in mind that the Nisaa' are the ones who are at the Receiving End of this contract while the other person from among An-Naas are the ones who are in the position to be at the Giving or Extending End. The Nisaa' are a group from among a larger group of Yatamaa and as a part of this larger, overall group they are left alone in society to fend for themselves and have no one to help them. How many people DO YOU KNOW who will willingly turn away the help of a philanthropist? I should could use some help right now and if a philanthropist comes along and offers me a helping hand through a mutual contract, I want to know the terms of this contract and I have to be AGREEABLE to the terms of the contract before it is signed by me. It is amost the same scenario when applying for a job. The applicant is at the receiving end and the potential employer is the one at the lending or giving end. If you want this entity to be your employer and pay you money for services rendered, you are going to have to AGREE to the terms of your employment and you will have to sign documents stating your agreement to your terms of employment. if you are NOT agreeable to the terms, look elsewhere OR face the possibility of continuing to be left to fend for yourself if you cannot make yourself to be agreeable to whoever comes along and wishes to provide help for your well being.
I have given you this lenghty reply inspite of the fact that you didn't answer my question to you in the last post I made. I'm repeating it again because I would like for you to answer it.
when you use the masculine plural yourself OR you come across the masculine plural through reading a text How Do You Know which group of people the masculine plural is referring to? If it is used for PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS it will be referring to one of those two groups. So how DO YOU ascertain WHICH GROUP the masculine plural is referring to?
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Peace Shirley( Damon)/Wakas, All.
Forgive my interruption. Interesting debate and very useful. It reminds me of
He sends down water from the sky, causing the valleys to overflow, then the rapids produce abundant foam. Similarly, when they use fire to refine metals for their jewellery or equipment, foam is produced. God thus cites analogies for the truth and falsehood. As for the foam, it goes to waste, while that which benefits the people stays close to the ground. God thus cites the analogies.
Some refining of 43 is being done. The outcome will benefit all.
Peace.
