Knocking on the doors of atheism

noshirk

Salaam StopS.

Thank you, this is useful and interesting for me. I understand that the litmus test is your 3rd point. The only problematic part I see is the human tutors. The Koran does not really mention "Muslims" much and rather refers to followers or believers. So I think I need human tutors who can explain the Koran and its words.

No, you don't need human. Humans will divert you from true path. No Humans. No One. It is totally forbidden.
You can be helped by humans but never take one of them as tutor. You have to use your own mind, confrontate, comparate and always ask yourself Is it logical that God ask for that thing ? What is the spiritual gain ?

Your 4th point do you ensure zakat gets spent the way you want it?

I told you no human.
Who told you Zakat is spending money ?
Are you speaking of Pillars of islam ? Have you seen a verse talking of 5 pillars ?
Who told you what is salat, fast, zakat , hajj ? Have you seen the shahada in quran ?

For me, zakat is mind purification from human bullshiths.
However be aware, i am a human too.

You make it sound as though being a Muslim is hard work

Wich point is difficult ? 1, 2, or 3 ?
Believing in God, in the thereafter and not believe blindly humans are not difficult tasks.
To be a muslim, you don't need even to know you are a muslim. Abraham had no torah, no quran. He guessed God with his mind.

Point 4 is only for who want to be a Muslim ++

Studying is only for those who want to get science in this life.
That is very difficult.
For quran, if one want to study it deeply, learning arabic is necessary to not put faith in traductors and unknown members of free-minds.

Peace

StopS

Faithful-Jinn here. Been months since I've been over here. It takes a lot of energy and patience to discuss and debate with people you disagree with. Plus college takes a lot of time now.

Anyway Stop I have 2 simple questions for you Do you believe in the Abrahamic God? If so, why?

I do not see sufficient evidence to do so.

Now I'm an atheist but former Muslim. Let me just make a bullet point list of why I don't believe in the Abrahamic God and also why I don't believe in Islam specifically
-I don't believe in magic
-I don't believe in heaven or hell
-The idea of an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God is absurd when one observes reality
-Prayer is a case of confirmation bias The same amount of prayers would be answered for me if I decided to pray to the milk jug in my refrigerator. If my prayer was answered I would thank the milk jug and if it wasn't answered I would say I was at fault
-The Qur'an seems to be written from the perspective of an 8th century Arab man
-I don't believe men are superior or a degree above women
-The Qur'an is no more profound than any other religious text. The Qur'an is not proof of anything but human superstitiousness and gullibility.
-I don't believe Noah lived to be 900 years old and that him and his family had every animal on the planet live with them on an enormous boat for 30 days
-I don't believe Moses had a magical staff
-I don't believe Jonah lived for 3 days in the belly of a fish or a whale

Bottom line Everything in my human experience and reason tells me that the claims of Islam and the other Abrahamic faiths are not true. I have yet to see any evidence to convince me that any religious claims about God or the afterlife are true. I do not believe in God because there is no good reason or evidence for me to do so. Much in the same way I don't believe in fairies, leprechauns, or genies.

Isn't this why it is called faith? You can't apply a microscope or an MRI to the contents of any religious book.

StopS

Salaam StopS.

No, you don't need human. Humans will divert you from true path. No Humans. No One. It is totally forbidden.
You can be helped by humans but never take one of them as tutor. You have to use your own mind, confrontate, comparate and always ask yourself Is it logical that God ask for that thing ? What is the spiritual gain ?

I told you no human.
Who told you Zakat is spending money ?
Are you speaking of Pillars of islam ? Have you seen a verse talking of 5 pillars ?
Who told you what is salat, fast, zakat , hajj ? Have you seen the shahada in quran ?

For me, zakat is mind purification from human bullshiths.
However be aware, i am a human too.

Wich point is difficult ? 1, 2, or 3 ?
Believing in God, in the thereafter and not believe blindly humans are not difficult tasks.
To be a muslim, you don't need even to know you are a muslim. Abraham had no torah, no quran. He guessed God with his mind.

Point 4 is only for who want to be a Muslim ++

Studying is only for those who want to get science in this life.
That is very difficult.
For quran, if one want to study it deeply, learning arabic is necessary to not put faith in traductors and unknown members of free-minds.

Peace

Just when I thought I got the hang of it, you showed me that I need to question what I think I know again. I hate it )

I understand that you have a different attitude than most other Muslims I know. I reckon that reading, understanding and then still performing what you consider to be purification does take an effort from your side. Especially when you are required to learn an entire language....

justamuslim

Faithful-Jinn, You are obviously astray and for some reason you feel the need to share that fact.
You don't believe this, You don't believe that, so what, who cares!

O0

The Koran does say there are those who will come to believe and then disbelieve. Faithful-Jim is an example. He has not said anything new that the Koran hasn't already addressed why people turn to disbelief or never come to believe in the first place. No new revelations here.

hawk99

Peace justamuslim,

I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time
they have no coherent answer. I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was
"I want to know what muslims think" not "I am interested in becoming muslim",
what a waste of time. What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions
from someone who was a known atheist. Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many
posts do a person need to make a decision? We need to stop wasting our time
and call a kuffar a kuffar.

Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.

O0

StopS

Peace justamuslim,

I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time they have no coherent answer. I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was "I want to know what muslims think" not "I am interested in becoming muslim", what a waste of time. What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions from someone who was a known atheist. Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many posts do a person need to make a decision? We need to stop wasting our time and call a kuffar a kuffar.

I am so glad that not everyone here is a zealous bigot and see this forum as a platform to engage in discussions with different people and not just the ones who think the same way as they do.

I am equally glad that there are human beings who don't judge me themselves, but leave that to their god.

GODsubmitter

I do not like to post in this thread, because of its title!
The door to atheism doesn't interest me, let alone knocking on it!
The person who started this thread seems the least interested in it of all.

So,
I would just like to invite us all to examine our motivations for writing here (and posting in the Forum generally)!

Do we want to proselytize? No need! Who ever told us to do that?
Do we want to defend the "Deen" (or the Religion)? Not possible! Besides, we are not appointed paid clergymen!
Do we want to defend God??? Not necessary! He is far beyond that notion!
Do we want to convince ourselves during the process of explaining faith to others? Not advisable! Narcissistic thoughts can destroy faith!

So what we should do here?

I think the only thing that we might do to help our fellow human beings, is to remind them!
Here, or anywhere.
We can only follow the example of the messengers, and remind people of God! Only that. Simply inform them about the Reading (Qur'an) which could enlighten them perhaps. And that's all we could do. To add anything would be pure vanity!

In the end, it is God Alone Who might guide them! He is running everything, anyway.

But!
Meanwhile, we have to be careful not to neglect our own souls, since provocation to preach and write nice posts can also be a devilish temptation... (I seek refuge in God!)

And we all know that Satan is the worst enemy to men!

Our task is to adhere fast to God and remain faithful to God Alone, nothing else!
And to nurture our souls with the five daily prayers, and to educate our minds with the Qur'an, and to implore God to guide us to the Right Path until the appointed time!

All the rest is just a waste of time and a sign of a ridiculous human pride...

Thank you for your attention.

(May God forgive me if writing this post I unconsciously wanted to boast or show off or to nurture my self-complacency and smugness by promoting my own self-righteousness!)

hawk99

I am so glad that not everyone here is a zealous bigot and see this forum as a platform to engage in discussions with different people and not just the ones who think the same way as they do.

I am equally glad that there are human beings who don't judge me themselves, but leave that to their god.

Who can be more of a zealous bigot than an atheist? constantly attacking everyone in
sight who disagrees with you, putting out so-called facts but never providing proof.
Everytime somebody makes a post here you come with your stupid questions and arguments.

lol, Idiocy
People do judge (they have courts you know)
people have opinions (judgements)
and by the way didn't you just judge me?

O0

good_logic

peace GODsubmitter.

I agree. God bless you.

Peace.

drfazl

I hear a lot of religious people, especially Muslims, say that God will direct you to the right path if he wants to. That God is the one who chooses who will be led astray and who won't. My question is why? Why would God help some people and leave the rest to live a sinful life and rot in hell for all eternity? Doesn't that sound sadistic?

For instance I have 3 children. Of these one child behaves well with sense of justification in his actions, taking my advise where necessary with all humility and sincerity. He is not being arrogant nor is he mischievous; but has patience and compassion for his habitat. I am well satisfied with him and I am pleased with him. Naturally, he becomes close to my heart. If I keep a watch over him from a distance, provides sufficient satisfaction to me. I give him more and more freedom as he gains momentum in his perception towards righteousness. He does not need abnormal physical or materialistic support for his journey towards superior power and nature.

The other child is playful and mischievous; and is unknowingly insincere. But when I point out his mistakes and speak to him of the glad tidings, he lends his ears and try to check his ways unlike before but for a short while, though later on he becomes childish again. In the case of the second child, he is not close to me but I have to be close to him to teach him good news about the unseen and unknown future with clear proof; and to physically guide him too with extra care, and with certain restraints. He values me for this and regards my closeness to him. I love him and I am pleased with him and give him more comfort of this physical world for I know he would look up to me for guidance whenever he is stuck or feels he would get into trouble; and would not heedlessly venture far and deep into them and suffer the worst. He has this tendency to suffer due to his childish carefree attitude, yet from what he had gained as guidance, he quickly remembers to bail himself out through patience, politeness and humility with prayerful heart. Prayer means the wishing for the beautiful tomorrow of the unseen blessings in the heart of hearts sent down by the Almighty power. Believing in such powers is being Prayerful. I love my second child for imbibing this when he is shown the righteousness during his testing times.

Regarding the third child, he is not only suffering from his childish behaviour, but hates any guidance with arrogance. However hard I try to correct him, his contempt for me aggravates by time. He becomes abusive and aggressive if I refuse to allow him the worldly desires. Though he is one of my children, I am left with no choice but to leave him in his way as he goes far astray, into oblivion.

This parable holds good in the case of humans in relation with the supreme God, who created them in standard and degree high above all the other creations.
.

Faithful-Jinn

Peace justamuslim,

I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time
they have no coherent answer. I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was
"I want to know what muslims think" not "I am interested in becoming muslim",
what a waste of time. What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions
from someone who was a known atheist. Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many
posts do a person need to make a decision? We need to stop wasting our time
and call a kuffar a kuffar.

Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

If God actually proved His existence I'd have no problem worshipping Him. But like every other religion that has ever existed, there is no evidence for God's existence.

It's a waste of time for me to post here any longer. Most people will never see any opposing viewpoint as valid. Everyone clings to their own beliefs regardless.

noshirk

Just when I thought I got the hang of it, you showed me that I need to question what I think I know again. I hate it )

Salaam StopS

I know that feeling. But mind purification is in fact freedom.

hope i will not bother you with my own conclusions

I studied astronomy, biology and many scientific fields. I get then the conclusion that all what we see is not result of Chance and i get also the conclusion that the entity that created all this has an infinite IQ.

I studied islam and i discovered that all rituals and all what we call islam is coming from other books than Quran.
I understand that it is hard to believe.
I studied quran and i discovered the great war The war between words of God and human bullshits. The war between truth and lies. The war between reason and stupidity.

I have consideration for sincere atheits because they succeded to reject humans bullshits about GOD.

Quran quite starts with these verses (sourate 1 is a prayer where a believer ask his God to show him the right path)
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the SALAT, and from Our provisions to them they spend.

and i will add these two verses
2852 Those to whom We had given the Book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we were Muslims before it."

islam didn't start with quran.
I get the conclusion that Quran can be understood only by those who have precognition of GOD and his infinite IQ and don't take Bullshits as tutors. All Others will understood nothing.

So i will give you a personal advice from the human i am
Don't waste your time with quran if you don't believe in the infinite IQ.
if you get precognition of the infinite IQ then you will be at verse 22 and you will be able to respond to the question Is quran the book of the infinite IQ ?
If you get conviction that response is yes then you will be able to ask other questions in a direct connexion between you and your God, your unique tutor, only by his words. That is Salat.
Please note that in arabic, the word Rabb, repeated hundreds times in quran, traduced often by God, means also educator. Unique Rabb is Unique Educator.
If you have no question to ask him, then you have probably not reached yet the 22 stage.

As you see, learning arabic is absolutely not necessary at firsts stages. It is necesseray only if one wants to take total freedom from all traductors. It needs a great motivation that can't be obtained at first stages.
And who knows ? Perhaps infinite IQ will put true muslims knowing arabic on the path of true muslims don't knowing arabic ?
Like a novelist, infinite IQ can knows future only if he has total control on it (think to now from big bang). A true Muslim should never forget that and have to put faith in the novelist with infinite IQ.

From my understanding, heaven is obtained from firsts stages. Higher stages are only for satisfying curiosity.

sorry again for my english.

Peace

justamuslim

I get the conclusion that Quran can be understood only by those who have precognition of GOD and his infinite IQ and don't take Bullshits as tutors. All Others will understood

Interesting. I would be curious to know if anyone started out as an atheist, read the Koran and then came to belief.

I don't know which philosopher said that if you study science deep enough, you will come to believe in existence of God.

StopS