Knocking on the doors of atheism
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Peace Assassino.
God does not need anything from anyone. He is " Unique", Independent.
"Serve/worship" is a misunderstood notion like all other notions of" deen/system". You are " dependent" , you will end up serving somebody or something? Who or What?.This according to your creator is a disaster ( If ,other than God is chosen!).
The only one " qualified" to be " served/worshipped" ie totally submitted to His laws and ways is the "Originator" .The Creator. Hence " One God"
For your own good, for unity , for the good of all the creation,there is only one way that works. God s way/system. In the end , willingly or unwillingly, this is the only choice God s creations are left with,if they want to be part of His kingdom. For their own benefit. There is no other system that will work perfectly, because there are no other "gods".
Choosing "other than god" is the option that leads to disaster!
The choice is yours?
Peace. -
Peace Assassino.
God does not need anything from anyone. He is " Unique", Independent.
"Serve/worship" is a misunderstood notion like all other notions of" deen/system". You are " dependent" , you will end up serving somebody or something? Who or What?.This according to your creator is a disaster ( If ,other than God is chosen!).
The only one " qualified" to be " served/worshipped" ie totally submitted to His laws and ways is the "Originator" .The Creator. Hence " One God"
For your own good, for unity , for the good of all the creation,there is only one way that works. God s way/system. In the end , willingly or unwillingly, this is the only choice God s creations are left with,if they want to be part of His kingdom. For their own benefit. There is no other system that will work perfectly, because there are no other "gods".
Choosing "other than god" is the option that leads to disaster!
The choice is yours?
Peace.- Is this logical?
- God does not need anything from anyone.
- if they want to be part of His kingdom.
A kingdom without subjects is not a kingdom.
- How do you interpret "Allah created some people for hell and some people for paradise" and "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us"?
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I have yet to see any evidence to convince me that any religious claims about God or the afterlife are true. I do not believe in God because there is no good reason or evidence for me to do so. Much in the same way I don't believe in fairies, leprechauns, or genies.
So you don't believe that fairies, leprechauns and genies are fictional characters from story books? To question the existence of fictional characters like Santa Claus, fairies, etc defies all common sense to say the least.
And you don't see any good reason why people should be held accountable for their deeds? You don't see any good reason why George Bush who waged an illegal war should be questioned and held accountable for all that he did? You don't see any good reason why those who cause bloodshed, pain and suffering to others should be held accountable for?
What you are saying is that basically, you don't believe in taking responsibility and accountability. And you don't care for justice.
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Peace StopS.
It seems my understanding and your understanding are different.
What I am saying does not make sense to you. What you are saying does not make sense to me.
I am not seeking to prove / convince you , like you have not been able to prove /convince me so far.
God is the only judge. He will tells us on what/why we differ.
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace StopS.
It seems my understanding and your understanding are different.
What I am saying does not make sense to you. What you are saying does not make sense to me.
I am not seeking to prove / convince you , like you have not been able to prove /convince me so far.
God is the only judge. He will tells us on what/why we differ.
God bless you.
Peace.Hahaha, no, I am not trying to convince. I asked a non-religion-based question, a question regarding logics.
I then asked a question regarding the logical interpretation of 2 sentences.
But it's ok, I understand if answering presents a problem for you.
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- Is this logical?
- God does not need anything from anyone.
- if they want to be part of His kingdom.
A kingdom without subjects is not a kingdom.
- How do you interpret "Allah created some people for hell and some people for paradise" and "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us"?
The approximate interpretation is that God created everything with a natural instinct to "worship" Him which approximately means to be in harmony with the Reality and with the Truth (to obey His Laws). Then some of the created rebelled, and God gave them another chance to repent because He is Rachman & Racheem (Merciful). But He also knows that again, some of those will not take the opportunity, and they will insist on going to Hell because of their own stubbornness.
Anyway, you can read it all very well explained here
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlWe are all (and everything is) in His Kingdom anyhow, whether we know it or not. All created are His subjects, even Iblees whom God created, too. God is running everything.
God doesn't need anything from us, but it is we who need contact-prayers et al (Qur'an, the Prophets, etc) to find the Way back to "paradise"! He gave us all those signs and aids also out of His Mercy! But some insist on rejecting 'em... -
If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.
What you are doing is humanizing God.
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Are you sure people here always cling to the beliefs no matter what?
If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.
That would be all right if we hadn't sided with Iblees and the idea of two gods, or duality in perception of reality, or idol-worship! But by worshiping God Alone, He offers us a chance to remember that there is only God Alone, One and only, and to rediscover the Right Path, spiritually speaking.
Anyhow, who says that one cannot go on with one's merry life?
One is perfectly entitled not to believe or to have as many gods as one wishes, and to worship money, sex, food, fashion-shows or whatever
That's why the free will is there for! He gave us free will so that we might choose the right path back, and correct the initial mistake we made in the first place! -
The approximate interpretation is that God created everything with a natural instinct to "worship" Him which approximately means to be in harmony with the Reality and with the Truth. Then some of the created rebelled, and God gave them another chance to repent because He is Rachman & Racheem (Merciful). But He also knows that again, some of those will not take the opportunity, and they will insist on going to Hell because of their own stubbornness.
Anyway, you can read it all very well explained here
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlWe are all (and everything is) in His Kingdom anyhow, whether we know it or not. All created are His subjects, even Iblees whom God created, too. God is running everything.
God doesn't need anything from us, but it is we who need contact-prayers et al (Qur'an, the Prophets, etc) to find the Way back to "paradise".Thank you.
Yours is a spiritual explanation, where I was looking more for a logical line of thought.
In my opinion the link you provide delivers a horrible explanation as it would mean that every human born is born with guilt attached. What a terrible thought! I should be guilty of something I did not do? Why?
The essay also shows a typical human anthropomorphous imagination e.g. animals repenting and all creatures having a joint discussion.
Humans did not even exist "a few billion years ago". It also says that "God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil" - yet they are created anyway and then punished for being what they were supposed to be. Not a logical concept at all, is it?But that's why people have faith.
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The tragic thing is I miss having God my life. I miss him so much. I was always a practicing Muslim. I started praying when I was 15 and never missed a prayer for years. And now I just feel a big hole in my life. People who say that I left Islam because I think the life of unbelievers is nicer, or because I am too arrogant to believe in a creator, know nothing.
When I am happy I miss having a God to say ElHamdulelah to. When I am sad, I miss praying to relax myself. When I am scared, I miss reading the Koran or raising my hand to God to ask for release. I miss the idea of a creator who has my back and who will ensure that justice will prevail not just for me, but for everyone else.
And my lack of belief in God, has shook my world. I used to believe that all the people who died in Egypt and in the Arab Spring are martyrs who will go to heaven. It helped me make sense of the senseless killings and violence. Now I feel lost. I don't understand why these people died.
I am just struggling to believe in God's existence. People don't understand. I am not challenging anyone's faith. I "want" to believe. I really do. I just can't. In the past few months, I just could not do it anymore. No matter how much I wanted to. One of my friends, knew what I was going through, and used to pull me up to the mosque during zuhr prayer at work, so I can pray and return to God. But it didn't work. It didn't. And that's why I opened this thread, I thought people may say something to help me. -
The tragic thing is I miss having God my life. I miss him so much. I was always a practicing Muslim. I started praying when I was 15 and never missed a prayer for years. And now I just feel a big hole in my life. People who say that I left Islam because I think the life of unbelievers is nicer, or because I am too arrogant to believe in a creator, know nothing.
When I am happy I miss having a God to say ElHamdulelah to. When I am sad, I miss praying to relax myself. When I am scared, I miss reading the Koran or raising my hand to God to ask for release. I miss the idea of a creator who has my back and who will ensure that justice will prevail not just for me, but for everyone else.
And my lack of belief in God, has shook my world. I used to believe that all the people who died in Egypt and in the Arab Spring are martyrs who will go to heaven. It helped me make sense of the senseless killings and violence. Now I feel lost. I don't understand why these people died.
I am just struggling to believe in God's existence. People don't understand. I am not challenging anyone's faith. I "want" to believe. I really do. I just can't. In the past few months, I just could not do it anymore. No matter how much I wanted to. One of my friends, knew what I was going through, and used to pull me up to the mosque during zuhr prayer at work, so I can pray and return to God. But it didn't work. It didn't. And that's why I opened this thread, I thought people may say something to help me.Sounds like a kid who lost her mummy ???
God will guide you and will have mercy on you I hope.
Perhaps this period is a test for your true faith and a process of cleansing your heart and your mind from false notions.
There are some "atheists" who are more faithful to God Alone then most "believers". That's why it is written that most "believers" will go to Hell (they do just lip service and write posts). laugh(I take refuge in God from any of these, and ask Him to guide me to the Right Path always, because my love for God is the very first thing in my life, and there is nothing more important to me then that!)
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Thank you.
Yours is a spiritual explanation, where I was looking more for a logical line of thought.
In my opinion the link you provide delivers a horrible explanation as it would mean that every human born is born with guilt attached. What a terrible thought! I should be guilty of something I did not do? Why?
The essay also shows a typical human anthropomorphous imagination e.g. animals repenting and all creatures having a joint discussion.
Humans did not even exist "a few billion years ago". It also says that "God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil" - yet they are created anyway and then punished for being what they were supposed to be. Not a logical concept at all, is it?But that's why people have faith.
?The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.?
Bertrand Russel -
It also says that "God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil" - yet they are created anyway and then punished for being what they were supposed to be. Not a logical concept at all, is it?
But that's why people have faith.
Is it logical to have prisons/punishments in this life? If God created a sociopath, then why are we punishing those who run ponze scheme or swindling people of money, land, hurting, killing, etc? If you remove God from the equation then punishment is ok? when God is removed, what is your explanation for why there are sociopath or narcissist or rapist or child predator, manipulators, etc? Remember God doesn't exist and so they were not created by God to be who they are.
Now, if it is in the nature of a person to be a sociopath then is it logical then to hold these individuals accountable for their actions? An atheist seems to have problems with concept of accountability in the life hereafter but why not in this life? If a sociopath manipulates swindles your money or steals or kills your family and stabs you, then why not apply your logic that this person has natural tendencies to behave in the way he does and should not be held accountable for his actions? Also to a sociopath, his sense of right is different than yours and how can you as a human being declare that his behavior is wrong?
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Sounds like a kid who lost her mummy ???
God will guide you and will have mercy on you I hope.
Perhaps this period is a test for your true faith and a process of cleansing your heart and your mind from false notions.
There are some "atheists" who are more faithful to God Alone then most "believers". That's why it is written that most "believers" will go to Hell (they do just lip service and write posts). laugh(I take refuge in God from any of these, and ask Him to guide me to the Right Path always, because my love for God is the very first thing in my life, and there is nothing more important to me then that!)
Like a kid who lost her mommy. Good grief.
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Is it logical to have prisons/punishments in this life? If God created a sociopath, then why are we punishing those who run ponze scheme or swindling people of money, land, hurting, killing, etc? If you remove God from the equation then punishment is ok? when God is removed, what is your explanation for why there are sociopath or narcissist or rapist or child predator, manipulators, etc? Remember God doesn't exist and so they were not created by God to be who they are.
Now, if it is in the nature of a person to be a sociopath then is it logical then to hold these individuals accountable for their actions? An atheist seems to have problems with concept of accountability in the life hereafter but why not in this life? If a sociopath manipulates swindles your money or steals or kills your family and stabs you, then why not apply your logic that this person has natural tendencies to behave in the way he does and should not be held accountable for his actions? Also to a sociopath, his sense of right is different than yours and how can you as a human being declare that his behavior is wrong?
I have no problem with God punishing killers and rapists. I have a problem with God punishing good people whose only crime is that they did not believe. Do these people deserve to go into eternal hell just for that? And please don't say that isn't so. There are many verses in the Koran saying that this is the fate of the Kafirs. And why would God get a kick out of this anyway? Say it is the end of time, the believers are in heaven and the kafirs are in hell, screaming and suffering. What happens after that? I mean is this the end of this complicated thing we call life? Heaven and hell for all eternally and period, that's it?
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Is it logical to have prisons/punishments in this life?
Good point! No, it is not! It is the best humans could think of in the way of temporally limited punishment the lack of freedom.
If God created a sociopath, then why are we punishing those who run ponze scheme or swindling people of money, land, hurting, killing, etc? If you remove God from the equation then punishment is ok? when God is removed, what is your explanation for why there are sociopath or narcissist or rapist or child predator, manipulators, etc? Remember God doesn't exist and so they were not created by God to be who they are.
Oh, that's easy human nature. Greed. Egotistical behaviour. God makes it even worse because now there is justification for some crimes by extremists and fundamentalists.
Now, if it is in the nature of a person to be a sociopath then is it logical then to hold these individuals accountable for their actions? An atheist seems to have problems with concept of accountability in the life hereafter but why not in this life? If a sociopath manipulates swindles your money or steals or kills your family and stabs you, then why not apply your logic that this person has natural tendencies to behave in the way he does and should not be held accountable for his actions? Also to a sociopath, his sense of right is different than yours and how can you as a human being declare that his behavior is wrong?
If you can prove the existence of the "hereafter" to me, I don't have a problem with it. Seems a bit boring, but maybe you get used to it.
Look, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about atheism. Atheism is the opposite belief of theism. Theism is the belief that there is evidence for the existence of a god. That's all. Not more than that. Everything else is optional and personal. Apart from that, it's not all black and white, the way you make it look.
So I think that someone who breaks the social conduct rules ought to be punished. A person who kidnaps my daughter and rapes and then kills her should have no possibility of saying "oh, I am sorry" and off he goes not only free, but highly rewarded too. Not every criminal is caught, so we derive comfort from the belief that every criminal will be caught by a super-natural justice system, which ensures no loop-holes. This belief is false.
Some people create fantasy figures like Superman or Batman to ensure a higher level of justice. I am not into fantasy so I realise that some get away with genocide and murder. It's part of life and sh** happens.
I am a social animal and my freedom stops where the next person's freedom begins. Easy.
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StopS, confused and others.....
It is black and white. Either God exists or doesn't. I believe that God exists and atheist doesn't. Evidence or lack of evidence is besides the point. If God exists, then I am right. If God doesn't, then atheist is right. Simple as that.
Either afterlife exists or doesn't. No one has evidence of existence of afterlife. To an atheist, no evidence=no afterlife. I have no evidence but I believe in the afterlife. If afterlife does indeed exists, then I am right. If afterlife doesn't exist, then the atheist is right. That simple. Black and white.
Seems to me that some atheists here are playing on words by saying "no evidence" of God and afterlife avoiding saying "I don't believe God exists". I don't care for playing on words. Opposite of belief is not believing. Either you believe God exists or you don't believe God exists. Black and white.
So confused, you need to decide for yourself if you believe in the existence of God or not. If you do not believe God exists then end of discussion. You cannot talk about afterlife, characteristic of God if you don't believe God exists in the first place. It doesn't make sense to talk about something that is nonexistence.
So first thing you need to do is ask yourself if all living things came into existence just by nature or if there is a creator. We were all once a tightly coiled DNA arrested in prophase 1 of meisosis in primary oocyte at the time our mothers were born. Actually, cant even say that as only after fertilization did we have the full genetic code to be this complex human beings with emotions, thoughts, feelings, having a brain, heart, lungs, etc. similar in many ways but yet uniquely different. You believe that randomly spontaneously all living things came into existence and each uniquely programmed by nature however you define nature or understand nature to be or do you believe that there is a creator?
Do you believe that you were created by higher being? So simple. black and white. It is a yes or no. Let's not go around in circles talking about evidence. It is a yes or no question. Do you or do you not believe that higher being created you? Yes or no?
What are you having problems with? believing in a higher being aka God or the concept of God? Problems with what you understand or don't understand God to be? So you believe in God but just have problems with God?
Important that you make this distinction. One is absolute rejection or disbelief of existence of God. The other is belief in God but just have a problem with God. So you believe in God but you have a lot of problem with God himself. You are appalled by God. You have grievances against God.
You have this whole problem of God creating earth. Creating living things. Life and death. You have issues with free will. You have issues with hell and heaven.
First step is belief in God. Next step is do you believe in hell and heaven? You can believe that a higher being created everything but not believe in hell and heaven. Do you believe in afterlife? Ok we are not talking about evidence or lack there of. do you or do you not believe that death is the end or not the end. Do you believe that there is life hereafter? put aside scriptures and people's beliefs or what you have been told.
Do you believe that this life is it? Yes or no. Simple as that.
You are an independent thinker. You can think for yourself. You can think for yourself if you believe in the existence of God or not. If you believe this life is it or not? This is a simple point. We are not talking about evidence which is nonissue.
Confused, do you believe that a higher bring created you? Yes or no? Do you believe that this life is it? Yes or no.
If the answer is no, then this life is it. People who get away, get away with things. Shit happens. Deal with it. End of story. Why are you troubling yourself with anything?
So if you believe in God and in the afterlife, next question is do you believe in the scriptures as being from God? This you need to figure out for yourself.
I know people who are spiritual but not religious. Meaning believe in higher being and afterlife but nothing else. Rejecting scriptures. You can believe God and in the life hereafter where people will end up in hell if they did bad things or heaven if they did good things regardless of their beliefs or lack of.
So is it the scriptures that you are having problems with? Sounds like that is the problem.
If you reject the scriptures as not from God, then having issues or problems with the content doesn't make sense. If you think that the scripture is written by men, then why are you bothered by what men wrote? If you are confused, unsure about the scriptures then let's talk.
Ok let's talk about certain concepts.
- free will. I think this is a concept most misunderstood. If we take our concept of what free will is or should be, then we really do not have free will. Did Adam and Eve have free will to do whatever? No. They could do whatever except to approach this "tree". There is obedience. And consequences for disobedience. If you have a problem with that, then abrahamic concept of God is not for you and it will not bode well with you. So you can either reject or accept certain concepts.
Lets take the concept of God first. We can ask how did God come into existence? Who crekated God? No one has the answer to these questions. The best answer is a no answer found in the Koran that God knows the unknown. You can be satisfied with that or not.
By the way, if you want to talk about the concept of God then you must first believe in God. If you don't believe in God then it is pointless and doesn't make any sense to talk about God.
Let's talk about some concepts in the Koran as that is what seems to be bugging you here. I will address this concept of hell. But I have to stop here as I have a life to live
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Peace,
Well said justamuslim except there is nothing to prove to the kuffar,
the Quran is clearHad your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
The Disbelievers Blocked Out
No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.
Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.
Muslims must learn to pay attention to what God is telling us.
Being a kuffar is their problem not ours!O0
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Peace,
Well said justamuslim except there is nothing to prove to the kuffar,
the Quran is clearHad your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
The Disbelievers Blocked Out
No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.
Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.
Muslims must learn to pay attention to what God is telling us.
Being a kuffar is their problem not ours!O0
Why had God not willed all the people to believe?
Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed.
Why does God not make the people to believe?
Do you want to force the people to become believers?
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