Knocking on the doors of atheism

GODsubmitter

Can I ask the people here a question?

Would you follow Islam (or any other faith) if 1. There is no heaven as a reward 2. There was no hell as a punishment?

YES, of course! For the mere love of God! yes
O God please increase my love for you despite reward of paradise or punishment of hell!
Let my love for You be the most important thing in my life forever!
My simple desire is to be the dust under His Feet!

justamuslim

Can I ask the people here a question?

Would you follow Islam (or any other faith) if 1. There is no heaven as a reward 2. There was no hell as a punishment?

Yes as my belief in God's existence is not dependent on heaven and hell which I will elaborate on later. Afterlife is what I believe in. This life is what is real to me. The Koran basically is a good book of guidance in this life that I have come to appreciate. Speaking from personal experience.

Confused

hi
Can you tell a little more about why this word kafir fascinates you?

It fascinates me because it is used to dismiss or put down non-believes, as our friend Godsubmitter here who told everyone not to bother with me because I am a Kafir and not worthy. It fascinates me because it has been used by Muslims to justify atrocities towards non-believers. But it really started to fascinate me after the Egyptian revolution, when Islamists began using it against anyone who disagrees with them or their policies. If you vote against them you are a Kafir, if you criticize their policies you are a kafir, if you disagree with their interpretation of Islam, you are a Kafir, if you are a Christian, you are a kafir. One of the saddest moments in my life was when I was attending a memorial for a Christian boy who was shot dead by the army, and a Salafist interrupted by saying that the boy is not a martyr/shahid because he is a Christian and Kafir.
Kafir kafir kafir. You cannot escape from that word in Egypt. It's on every TV channel, radio station and newspaper you read. For Muslims, the word has become like spit, they gather it up in their mouths, swirl it around their tongue and then spew it out at anyone they dislike.

justamuslim

It fascinates me because it is used to dismiss or put down non-believes, as our friend Godsubmitter here who told everyone not to bother with me because I am a Kafir and not worthy.

It doesn't fascinate me. It sickens me.

farida

Excellent, I love your approach and your set of questions. Can you answer these for yourself too? Why do you die and your excuse etc?

I die because my cells don't reproduce properly.
.

Hi StopS
You are not the type who shies away so why did you ignore my very vaild question?
Let me put it differently Does one die only when one's cells stop reproducing properly, or could it be that death can come at any time and for many reasons?
Add to that a further question You are having best time of your life but what about those who died before reaching same age as you and never got to enjoy their best time of life on this earth?
Do you ever give a second thought to them and to how they could be compensated?
Please don't ignore me

farida

Can I ask the people here a question?

Would you follow Islam (or any other faith) if 1. There was no heaven as a reward 2. There was no hell as a punishment?

My reward lies in pleasing the one I love and my punishment is the feeling that I've upset the One I love. Does that make me a self centered person?
I would say yes as my self belongs to the One who fashioned me and made mankind the best of His creations, I strive to live up to that expectation. pr

StopS

Are you sure you will die when your cells don't reproduce properly, or could it be that you cells are perfectly capable of reproducing, but you die because your time is up.

Why would I give something a spiritual mumbo-jumbo when nature is perfectly explained? The time is up is undefined, implausible, vague - and wrong.

"Aging at the molecular level is characterized by the progressive accumulation of molecular damage caused by environmental and metabolically generated free radicals, by spontaneous errors in biochemical reactions, and by nutritional components. Damages in the MRS and other pathways lead to age-related failure of MRS, molecular heterogeneity, cellular dysfunctioning, reduced stress tolerance, diseases and ultimate death."
http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17090411

At your service is shaytan, not God

Do you have proof for this statement?

Are you suggesting I misunderstood the attributes of and for a god?

StopS

I don't think any creator would have a problem with people discussing different point of views.

By the way, the word Kafir fascinates me. It is a unique word. There is none like it in the world. It deserves a whole book. So many injustices and atrocities have been done just because of that one word.

In South Africa it was a highly derogatory word stemming from the apartheid era, denoting a second class citizen with black skin.

StopS

Hi StopS
You are not the type who shies away so why did you ignore my very vaild question?
Let me put it differently Does one die only when one's cells stop reproducing properly, or could it be that death can come at any time and for many reasons?
Add to that a further question You are having best time of your life but what about those who died before reaching same age as you and never got to enjoy their best time of life on this earth?
Do you ever give a second thought to them and to how they could be compensated?
Please don't ignore me

This was a wrong quote outline. good logic asked me a set of questions. I answered them and asked him whether he would answer the same questions. He did not and side-stepped the issue. So you are seeing the "out of context" question I asked.

I answered your question. Yes I do and I reckon most do have a good time. If a person does not it is a biological failing. In the belief of a theist it is probably due to his or her god having taken a decision to have that person suffer.
Compensated? For what? By whom? We are just naturally badly "designed" and have to accept that we are born to die and some organic matter survives longer, some shorter and some thrives and some withers.

GODsubmitter

It fascinates me because it is used to dismiss or put down non-believes, as our friend Godsubmitter here who told everyone not to bother with me because I am a Kafir and not worthy. It fascinates me because it has been used by Muslims to justify atrocities towards non-believers. But it really started to fascinate me after the Egyptian revolution, when Islamists began using it against anyone who disagrees with them or their policies. If you vote against them you are a Kafir, if you criticize their policies you are a kafir, if you disagree with their interpretation of Islam, you are a Kafir, if you are a Christian, you are a kafir. One of the saddest moments in my life was when I was attending a memorial for a Christian boy who was shot dead by the army, and a Salafist interrupted by saying that the boy is not a martyr/shahid because he is a Christian and Kafir.
Kafir kafir kafir. You cannot escape from that word in Egypt. It's on every TV channel, radio station and newspaper you read. For Muslims, the word has become like spit, they gather it up in their mouths, swirl it around their tongue and then spew it out at anyone they dislike.

Listen @confused, I now realize that you are really confused indeed!
The way you think of that word and the way those people in your pathetic example use that word is just the proof that mainstream Islam, (as any other man-made religion for that matter), is actually of Satanic fabrication!
On the other hand, my point is very simple e.g. a source cannot spring both salty and sweet water, it is either one or another, same as a fig tree will never bear grapes as a fruit!
In that sense one is either a believer or a disbeliever, and there are no grey shades, it is verily either black or white!
My whole statement was just that one is either a believer or disbeliever, as I wrote in my original reply to your thread a few posts before!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315018#msg315018

farida

This was a wrong quote outline. good logic asked me a set of questions. I answered them and asked him whether he would answer the same questions. He did not and side-stepped the issue. So you are seeing the "out of context" question I asked.

Hi StopS
Thank you for replying to my questions, I note that you do not wish to be quoted "out of context" and hope you would apply the same rule to others.

Yes I do and I reckon most do have a good time. If a person does not it is a biological failing. In the belief of a theist it is probably due to his or her god having taken a decision to have that person suffer.

A little girl who was about to enter a sweet shop was shot in a crossfire between two gangs,.... where do you see a biological failing in such a situation ???
Ah now I see it! How badly "designed" she was. The girl should have been designed according to YOUR standards just like a robot, where if you can take the bullet out and reconnect all the parts and off she goes, on and on and on, ! the gansters too should have been designed to hit the right target at the right time and place... Perfect.

Compensated? For what? By whom? We are just naturally badly "designed" and have to accept that we are born to die and some organic matter survives longer, some shorter and some thrives and some withers.

Who is that Designer than -\

GODsubmitter

Thank you.

Yours is a spiritual explanation, where I was looking more for a logical line of thought.

Well of course!
It is a spiritual question after all, isn't it?
Don't you see?

farida

Why would I give something a spiritual mumbo-jumbo when nature is perfectly explained? The time is up is undefined, implausible, vague - and wrong.

"Aging at the molecular level is characterized by the progressive accumulation of molecular damage caused by environmental and metabolically generated free radicals, by spontaneous errors in biochemical reactions, and by nutritional components. Damages in the MRS and other pathways lead to age-related failure of MRS, molecular heterogeneity, cellular dysfunctioning, reduced stress tolerance, diseases and ultimate death."
http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17090411

Do you have proof for this statement?

Are you suggesting I misunderstood the attributes of and for a god?

May be before you understand the attributes of and for a god it will be a good idea to try and understand who is at your service desprately trying to restore the molecular damage caused by environmental and metabolically generated free radicals, by spontaneous errors in biochemical reactions, and by nutritional components.
Once you work this out you will see the proof for my statement.
Byeeeee

Confused

Listen @confused, I now realize that you are really confused indeed!
The way you think of that word and the way those people in your pathetic example use that word is just the proof that mainstream Islam, (as any other man-made religion for that matter), is actually of Satanic fabrication!
On the other hand, my point is very simple e.g. a source cannot spring both salty and sweet water, it is either one or another, same as a fig tree will never bear grapes as a fruit!
In that sense one is either a believer or a disbeliever, and there are no grey shades, it is verily either black or white!
My whole statement was just that one is either a believer or disbeliever, as I wrote in my original reply to your thread a few posts before!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315018#msg315018

We all know that one has to either believe or not believe. When did I argue about this? And why are you bothering with a Kafra like me anyway?

GODsubmitter

Because you addressed me in your post and quoted my words.

Otherwise, I do not bother at all, as stated here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315431#msg315431

Besides, I have no idea whether you are kafir or whatever, based on few lines one might write on Forum. It is for God to decide about us all, and He will inform us in the Hereafter.

StopS

Hi StopS
Thank you for replying to my questions, I note that you do not wish to be quoted "out of context" and hope you would apply the same rule to others.

Oh dear, the joke did not come through. Oh well, maybe next time.

A little girl who was about to enter a sweet shop was shot in a crossfire between two gangs,.... where do you see a biological failing in such a situation ???
Ah now I see it! How badly "designed" she was. The girl should have been designed according to YOUR standards just like a robot, where if you can take the bullet out and reconnect all the parts and off she goes, on and on and on, ! the gansters too should have been designed to hit the right target at the right time and place... Perfect.

If you would check your writing you would find that your approach is upside down. Can a girl, who is passive, be a cause of anything? No. So what other options are there? Ah, the people shooting guns in an area where innocent people can get injured and even killed. So the shooter is biologically damaged and has no ethics conforming with the society he lives in, where his freedom stops where the next person's freedom starts. His attitude does not conform with that. I don't consider this trivial at all and a real problem within people.

My standards? What standards?

Mine are non-standards as I allow for every conceivable variation in humans. I don't care whether someone is Muslim, Christian, Jew, Zoroastrian, Jain, Taoist, Rastafarian, and so on. If someone thinks they were abducted by aliens that also fine. It's a belief, not a matter of design and not something they expect me to participate in.

Who is that Designer than -\

Do I really need to spell it out again? And again? How many times? I have said it only a few lines above nature. It is not a design of any kind or type, so I used the term in jest in inverted commas.

You don't answer my questions, but why are you so bent on making me out as stupid, immoral, callous and indifferent?

StopS

Well of course!
It is a spiritual question after all, isn't it?
Don't you see?

Is this logical?

God does not need anything from anyone.
if they want to be part of His kingdom.

A kingdom without subjects is not a kingdom.

Is this a question asking for a logical or spiritual explanation?

How do you interpret "Allah created some people for hell and some people for paradise" and "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us"?

Is this a question asking for a factual or spiritual explanation?

So, no, I was more after the facts and logics to understand the process.

StopS

May be before you understand the attributes of and for a god it will be a good idea to try and understand who is at your service desprately trying to restore the molecular damage caused by environmental and metabolically generated free radicals, by spontaneous errors in biochemical reactions, and by nutritional components.
Once you work this out you will see the proof for my statement.
Byeeeee

You asked whether I was sure about my cells not reproducing properly and I said yes and showed evidence for this.

I also explained why your suggestion was not too well thought out.

You picked up on what I answered good logic.
You propose some being which you have not yet delivered evidence for, so why should I believe it exists? I ask you about this, but you don't answer questions.

I ask a question - which, of course, you don't answer and then provide an answer to good logic

I have not been provided any evidence, why should I be punished for that?
Like I said

If a god is omniscient, he will know what evidence I require.
If a god is omnipotent, he can provide the evidence I require.
If a god is merciful, he will provide the evidence I require.

You don't answer my question but give me some vague, ambiguous, unspecific and quite useless advice. Nobody has mastered the ageing process, so your suggestion is science-fiction or pseudo-science, not to be taken seriously.

StopS

Because you addressed me in your post and quoted my words.

Otherwise, I do not bother at all, as stated here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315431#msg315431

Besides, I have no idea whether you are kafir or whatever, based on few lines one might write on Forum. It is for God to decide about us all, and He will inform us in the Hereafter.

Do you think you could refrain from using this very insulting and derogatory word?

farida

Do I really need to spell it out again? And again? How many times? I have said it only a few lines above nature

Yes please do spell out to me. What is nature and how did this nature managed to design me and you so differently, us being of the same species?

You don't answer my questions,

You mean like.... answer questions with questions

but why are you so bent on making me out as stupid, immoral, callous and indifferent?

It's not my fault if you feel that way.

You don't answer my question but give me some vague, ambiguous, unspecific and quite useless advice.

Me giving you advice? nope

Nobody has mastered the ageing process, so your suggestion is science-fiction or pseudo-science, not to be taken seriously.

Re-read what I wrote .... who is at your service desperately trying to restore.....