Knocking on the doors of atheism
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I would like to state my beliefs so you all know where I stand. I believe in God and in the life hereafter where each soul will have to take responsibility and accountability for how s/he has lived this life. Good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished. And punishment will be tailored to the individual and nothing will be undeserved. This is my fundamental belief independent of any scripture.
None of us will know for sure till death. But I choose to believe in God. I am yet to lose anything from believing in God. I have not been harmed in anyway from believing in God. It is a good thing. it is comforting to me. I have been through a lot some of which I have shared here but much I haven't and God has helped me through a lot and continues to. I never feel alone. God has been the only constant thing in my life. people come and go in and out of my life some leaving me hurting. possessions i have owned and lost but above all God has been constant. An atheist could argue that I could have done it on my own without God and don't need God to get me through the day. I am yet to hear a convincing argument though of why I shouldn't believe in God from an atheist. as human beings, we need a sense of belonging, need to be beloved, comforted, that feeling of security and protection....God provides that for me. I am sure an atheist would ask how. My response would be, if you don't believe it then you will not understand. Even when I am not going through stuff needing God, it only makes sense to me to believe in God regardless of needs. God doesn't just fill a void or need.
Contrary to popular belief, the God that I believe in is not this temperamental, emotional, angry, sensitive God. I will probably get blasted for saying that I don't think that God created me for the sole purpose of "worshipping him" as we understand worship to be. I am quite sure that God does not have a fragile ego or an ego maniac who needs me to praise him night and day or that God will get mad and throw me in hell if I don't constantly offer my adulations. God is God regardless of my existence and what I do or not do. It may come as a shock to some or many but enjoyment is part of the reason for my creation. as I was relishing my meal earlier, I believe that God created taste buds so I could enjoy the burst of different flavors in my mouth. I think that God likes seeing me enjoying my life.
I don't believe that God wants me to suffer as I believe it when he says that he wishes to make my life easy. I do believe that God wants me to live to my potential and to my max. Why else would God have created me with the senses, intellect, and designed me to experience certain pleasures. of course, God also created pain receptors, diseases and such which often i marvel and wonder at. anyhow, I like to amuse myself in thinking that God created this earth for me to enjoy and I think that I do a fine job of soaking it all in listening to sounds of the ocean or watching the sunset. I do agree with God that misery is what we create for ourselves and to others.
I believe in a God who is infinitely understanding, caring, compassionate, forgiving but is fair and just. An atheist would argue or question these attributes. Ex how can God create a child whose mother is addicted to crack cocaine, no father in the picture, knowing the child will grow up in unstable environment where the needs of the child to be loved and cared will not be met and what chance will this child have in life? It is hard for me not to wonder or question many things as I go through my day doing my work. This is where I accept that God knows what I don't know. And it is a fact that I will never really understand God as my brain is not capable of and neither will I have answers that will be satisfactory. Why stress my brain cells? I don't reject God though just because I don't or can't understand or will ever have the answers to the multitude of questions. I suppose I am just too busy living my life and not worrying about stuff.
About the Koran, I believe it is from God something that I didn't come to believe easily without much thought. When I read something that I find contradictory, confusing or does not make sense, I don't reject the Koran but question my understanding and translations. Now there are many things that I don't understand and are even relevant to my life that is in the Koran. Seriously do I really care who Magog and agog were? I leave it to the intellect to analyze, disset and argue over. I have only benefitted from using the Koran as a guidance in my life. I come to appreciate and see what happens if you don't take it as a guidance. Speaking from personal experience as well. To me, it is simple. Want to make your life simple and easy, refer to the Koran. If you want to complicate your life, refer to the hadiths or other sources. Applying what I read in the Koran hasn't adversely affected me thus far. If anything, I have only gained. Working on killing my ego which is so hard, not acting arrogantly, thinking before I open my big mouth especially refraining from making a smart ass comment, seeking God when angered instead of just taking it out... I think people at work and around me seem to appreciate this part. Respecting others has also helped. Of course, one could argue that any self help book would do. True but no book that I have encountered thus far that has come close or helped me to understand things - the world we live in, about people, about life. I get much out of it and so I will continue to read, learn and understand.
I don't obess over stuff like what is modest dressing, how to pray and all that people seem to have an obsession over. I get the bit picture and the message. At times, though reading the Koran gets me all worked up and gets me from being passive to being active and vocal. Hard to mind my business and at times have found myself fighting for the little guy. When i see people putting down others, i stand up and say hey, that's not nice. in general, i tend to regress towards passivity but time to time I say stuff here on this forum and else where. When I hear things said about God that I don't agree, I speak up. I don't run with the herd. Guess never been a fan of rear ends. Gets me in trouble often and often find myself alone with my views and beliefs.
Anyhow, Confused who asked what she should do, these are my suggestions and take it for what it is worth
Stop believing what you have been told by people to be Islam. You have been tied up in knots kept in state of confusion for all these years by people. Reject and don't believe people including some on this forum as they will keep you in a state of confusion. Contrary to popular belief God did not say salat=ritual act of worship that you do 5,3 or 2 times of the day depending on who you listen to. Don't believe in these religious duties that have been told is what islam is about. Keep searching for the truth and peace. Don't reject God based on people's portrayal and characterization. God is not who we have been mislead to believe. Don't believe in this Islam according to men, confused. Listen to God and break free from these shackles. The Truth will set you free. Be weary that satan does his best messing with your mind and mixing truth with falsehood. Trust in God that he will NEVER lead you astray. You don't have to take my word for it but God does care for you and understands what you are going through. He is there for you even if you are not sure of him. His doors are always open. Just don't shut the door on God. You have only to gain from believing in God and opening your heart/mind to him. What have to lose from believing in God?
I hope that some day you will change your ID from confused to "nolongerconfused" -)
Oh I expect people to blast me with artillery of verses with regards to what I said about salat, but let's address that in the other thread at a later time when time allows.
handshake yes
Couldn't have said that better myself ). My view of God is essentially the same.
As justamuslim has entirely said, we all have different ideas of God, but as long as we seek the truth and strive in the straight path that the God has provided for us, then we shall have no fear ).
peace
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An atheist does not believe there is evidence for the existence of a god.
What would an atheist consider "evidence"?
What other ideas or impressions do you or people here have of atheists?
I have family members and friends who are atheist. Most atheist i know have come to reject God not because lack of "evidence" as you state.
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Peace.
First of all, we need to understand that "belief" is a condition, not a choice. You can claim to believe in something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you believe in it. A person doesn't choose to believe in a god; he or she has been convinced of it in some way. From the same standpoint, atheists aren't choosing not to believe in a god or gods; they merely haven't been convinced of the existence of these characters (e.g. gods, goddesses, angels, demons, etc.), generally due to a lack of proof that they exist. That's where the underlying issue stands.
Regardless of that measure, there will ALWAYS be a philosophical conflict in this regard. Even if theists could somehow prove that a god exists, how would they be able to prove that their god exists? For example, if evidence for a divine, supernatural being surfaced, and it somehow convinced everyone that there certainly is a god, Muslims would all claim that it's evidence of ALLAH's existence, Christians would claim that it's Jesus, Jews would claim that it's HaShem, Hindus would claim that it's Brahma, Greeks would claim that it's Zeus, Romans would claim that it's Saturn, etc. You'd never be able to prove WHICH god it actually is, and that would present another philosophical discrepancy. In addition, if this evidence arose, you'd never be able to prove that there is only ONE god - there'd be the possibility of there being many of them, perhaps in different locations or on different 'planes of existence', etc. There'd be no way to make an accurate determination of this.
That's generally why atheists tend to take the default stance - e.g. there are no gods, no goddesses, no angels, no demons, etc. The logical proof that's used to dismiss the existence of one god can be used to debunk ALL of them.
Peace,
Ahmad
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But if you are deaf, dumb and blind, what can God do? I supposed he can make you less dumb, deaf and blind!
i apologise sincerely if i have offended you in any way that you are implying that im deaf, dumb and blind. if not directed at me or others with similar views then my apologies.
But anyway by which criteria does one assess that they themselves are not as you delicately put it dumb, deaf and blind. isn't that rather subjective and attributed to personal feeling that they see the truth and others are too dumb, deaf and blind to see it.
Is the problem that i can't grasp the quran due to lack of understanding and therefore i think it does not sufficiently provide the basis for a belief in Quranic "islam" or is that maybe i do indeed understand properly and the quran is not what it claims to be and inconsistencies i see are actual inconsistencies. How does one distinguish between the two.
i know its rather subjective but id like others way they manage to see the difference between the two states. or is it just trust what we know and go with it because we will find out when we die.
Justamuslim I have read your post that you state your beliefs and i have no problem at all with your position because you have not made claims about about God and religion that you want me to have belief in, so we have no conflict of interest. Yours as you say is a personal choice and that fine as long it does not hamper others. The problem only arises with thiests/anti-thiests when some decide everyone should believe what they do or you will be punished with hell if you don't believe, then the obvious question is Why should I and bring the evidence that what they say is true.
Peace.
atheists aren't choosing not to believe in a god or gods; they merely haven't been convinced of the existence of these characters (e.g. gods, goddesses, angels, demons, etc.), generally due to a lack of proof that they exist. That's where the underlying issue stands.
Regardless of that measure, there will ALWAYS be a philosophical conflict in this regard. Even if theists could somehow prove that a god exists, how would they be able to prove that their god exists? For example, if evidence for a divine, supernatural being surfaced, and it somehow convinced everyone that there certainly is a god, Muslims would all claim that it's evidence of ALLAH's existence, Christians would claim that it's Jesus, Jews would claim that it's HaShem, Hindus would claim that it's Brahma, Greeks would claim that it's Zeus, Romans would claim that it's Saturn, etc. You'd never be able to prove WHICH god it actually is, and that would present another philosophical discrepancy. In addition, if this evidence arose, you'd never be able to prove that there is only ONE god - there'd be the possibility of there being many of them, perhaps in different locations or on different 'planes of existence', etc. There'd be no way to make an accurate determination of this.
i agree entirely with this post and sums up my non-belief position.
What kind of evidence could a person provide to prove their religious belief? i'm not entirely sure but a good start would be something testable and verifiable independently and objectively. i can rule out personal experience and anything that the person presenting the evidence would not accept themselves if the tables were turned. subjective evidence rules itself out as it falls in to personal.
As for the evidence a God can give; that depends on the definition of God we use.
for example IF God is unknowable then no amount of evidence would let us know it is from God. -
What would an atheist consider "evidence"?
Like I said
If god is all powerful he can provide the evidence I need.
If god is all knowing he knows what evidence I need.
If god is all merciful he will provide the evidence I need.And like I said you can't reject something for which there is no evidence.
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Peace.
First of all, we need to understand that "belief" is a condition, not a choice. You can claim to believe in something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you believe in it. A person doesn't choose to believe in a god; he or she has been convinced of it in some way. From the same standpoint, atheists aren't choosing not to believe in a god or gods; they merely haven't been convinced of the existence of these characters (e.g. gods, goddesses, angels, demons, etc.), generally due to a lack of proof that they exist. That's where the underlying issue stands.
Regardless of that measure, there will ALWAYS be a philosophical conflict in this regard. Even if theists could somehow prove that a god exists, how would they be able to prove that their god exists? For example, if evidence for a divine, supernatural being surfaced, and it somehow convinced everyone that there certainly is a god, Muslims would all claim that it's evidence of ALLAH's existence, Christians would claim that it's Jesus, Jews would claim that it's HaShem, Hindus would claim that it's Brahma, Greeks would claim that it's Zeus, Romans would claim that it's Saturn, etc. You'd never be able to prove WHICH god it actually is, and that would present another philosophical discrepancy. In addition, if this evidence arose, you'd never be able to prove that there is only ONE god - there'd be the possibility of there being many of them, perhaps in different locations or on different 'planes of existence', etc. There'd be no way to make an accurate determination of this.
That's generally why atheists tend to take the default stance - e.g. there are no gods, no goddesses, no angels, no demons, etc. The logical proof that's used to dismiss the existence of one god can be used to debunk ALL of them.
Peace,
Ahmad
Sorry, I object.
Belief can be a choice.
Example many Muslims (Christians too, for that matter) choose to ignore the facts surrounding the theory of evolution and instead choose to prioritise the religious creation story, even if it does not really collide with it.
The same goes for cosmogony and abiogenesis.Atheists choose to insist on evidence, theists choose to apply faith. I used to apply faith until I grew out of it during maturity. I chose to do that. Neither theism nor atheism is an illness or condition.
If there were evidence of a god, it would necessarily solve the question of monotheism vs polytheism. I can't think of anything where evidence would be possible for only a single instance of a group.
Atheists don't consider the default to be "no gods", as that would constitute a positive claim. Rather an atheist will take the stance of you believe, I don't. If you want me to believe, prove it.
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O please do excuse me all, I am simply trying to keep with the subject of this thread created by @Confused, who hasn't yet answered my earlier question about his purpose for creating it.
As I am not into philosophy or intellectual speculations, like some other members here, I would just repeat a few things I wrote in another thread, preventing this one to go utterly off-topic.God created Iblees as well, so of course God is the creator of both good and bad which are a dichotomy only for the feeble human mind, but not in relativity-driven objective reality which we cannot perceive, because a human simply doesn't have enough neurons to do that, same as a monkey has not sufficient neurons to play chess!
Don't you see that there is God even at the bottom of the devil's heart?Well, that's for sure God is running everything!
Hell is not created yet, but disbelievers will go there by their own choice, they are just choosing to do so. Hell is a sort of metaphor, as well as Paradise is, and you cannot force anyone into the Paradise, can you?The whole topic is rather simple, isn't it one is either a believer or a disbeliever!
I simply cannot understand why fuss so much about it all? -
God created Iblees as well, so of course God is the creator of both good and bad which are a dichotomy only for the feeble human mind, but not in relativity-driven objective reality which we cannot perceive, because a human simply doesn't have enough neurons to do that, same as a monkey has not sufficient neurons to play chess!
If god created bad, which we see in the form of satan or Iblees, what form did god create that is good? What exactly is "relativity-driven objective reality"? Are you making this up? Either something is relative or objective, so this is an oxymoron. There is nothing more real than reality, so this is also nonsensical.
Don't you see that there is God even at the bottom of the devil's heart?
Would you mind providing just a little bit of evidence before presenting this as though it were a fact?
Well, that's for sure God is running everything!
Would you mind providing just a little bit of evidence before presenting this as though it were a fact?
Hell is not created yet, but disbelievers will go there by their own choice, they are just choosing to do so. Hell is a sort of metaphor, as well as Paradise is, and you cannot force anyone into the Paradise, can you?
Well, if I understand the concept, then believers, whether good or bad don't need to do much.
Equally, the mere doubting will get me into hell and eternal punishment.
Is it a metaphor? Well, then I don't have to worry, do I? Anyone can do as they please. But then what else in the Koran is only "a sort of metaphor"?The whole topic is rather simple, isn't it one is either a believer or a disbeliever!
I simply cannot understand why fuss so much about it all?Nope, as I explained to you before it is a lot more complicated than you think.
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Peace, StopS.
Belief can be a choice.
Example many Muslims (Christians too, for that matter) choose to ignore the facts surrounding the theory of evolution and instead choose to prioritise the religious creation story, even if it does not really collide with it.
The same goes for cosmogony and abiogenesis.Atheists choose to insist on evidence, theists choose to apply faith. I used to apply faith until I grew out of it during maturity. I chose to do that. Neither theism nor atheism is an illness or condition.
I partially disagree. Religious fundamentalists reject those scientific determinations because their theological convictions teach them otherwise. It's not particularly because they choose not to accept reality. There are still Muslims in Arabic countries who teach that the Earth is flat and sitting on a trail of camels! Yes, they're choosing to accept nonsense; but only because they have a preestablished faith in their theological principles - in this case, hadiyths that teach that foolishness... Can I wake up one morning, say, "Hey, I want to believe in angels and demons today," and actually believe it instantaneously? Of course not. It has to be conditioned and established. Otherwise, I'm just claiming to believe it; I don't actually believe in it.
And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.
Peace,
Ahmad
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And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.
I have never heard of this generalized standpoint before. Now is this standpoint of an atheist and is it based on evidence as atheist seem to be all up on evidence? theism being an illness called delusion is based on what facts? If it is an illness, is it described in medical literature? Do you have evidence to back up this standpoint?
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Like I said
If god is all powerful he can provide the evidence I need.
If god is all knowing he knows what evidence I need.
If god is all merciful he will provide the evidence I need.And like I said you can't reject something for which there is no evidence.
Ok I am not God. So tell us what evidence you need. What would you consider to be an evidence needed for you to believe in God?
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Peace, justamuslim.
I have never heard of this generalized standpoint before. Now is this standpoint of an atheist and is it based on evidence as atheist seem to be all up on evidence? theism being an illness called delusion is based on what facts? If it is an illness, is it described in medical literature? Do you have evidence to back up this standpoint?
Here's a definition for delusion
"A delusion is a false, unshakeable idea or belief which is out of keeping with the patient?s educational, cultural and social background; it is held with extraordinary conviction and subjective certainty" (Sims, 1995).
According to the dictionary terminology, delusion is "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." Does this apply to theological convictions? Of course it does! I'm not claiming to be an atheist (although I'm not denying the idea of being one either); I'm simply a rational thinker. The tenets of religious belief have been disproven time and time again. Here are a few examples
- Creation of the universe - debunked by modern cosmology
- Theological generation of species - debunked by modern biology (natural selection)
- The (modern) universe being created in six days - debunked by all physical, chemical, geological and biological sciences
And this isn't even referring to the "miraculous" happenings found in the Bible and Koran - e.g. talking snakes and donkeys; sticks turning into serpents; healing sick people with a touch; raising dead people to life with a word; transforming clay birds into real (living) birds; chopping up pigeons, placing the pieces on separate surfaces, calling out to them, and causing them to reassemble and come back to life; commanding the sun to 'stand still' and achieving those results; splitting the moon in half by pointing at it; flying to heaven on the back of a donkey; etc. Those things are totally nonsensical. Yet, religious people believe in all of those things wholeheartedly, despite the fact that they're physically and logically impossible. If that's not delusion, I don't know what is!
Now, my intent is not to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. However, there's nothing wrong with rational, critical thought. Personally, I feel that most religious people are delusional, and it's no different from the perception that others would have of me had I said that I believe that Santa Claus lives on the North Pole and miraculously drops packages into millions of chimneys in a single night. Again, it's just my position on the matter. If you disagree with my viewpoint, you are entitled to do so.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam confused
I permit myself to give you "a diagnosis" based on my own experience.
Apart God and Quran, I rejected all what you rejected but i now believe more than before.
If you are coherent with yourself, you cannot reject GOD because of all hersays that idolaters and atheists said about him.Knocking on the doors of atheism means that you freed your mind from many things your reason told you it was lies.
However, knocking on the doors of atheism in the free-minds.org website means that you are also knocking on doors of God and that the link with him is not dropped yet.
Now, you have the choice
1- use your free mind to go closer to god.
2- use your free mind to go far away from GOD.For me, you HAVE ONLY STARTED to drop the link with idolatry (following blindly ancestors, false "scientists" and hersays of people on what God said).
Doubting is a pillar of reason.
I think that "Exposing his doubts to God", like you have done, can be the beginning of a sincere relation with him.Like you, after going out from the idolatry i thought it was islam, i knocked the doors of atheism but i never entered there even if i discovered more and more lies in "traditional islam".
However, i have to recognize that reading atheists helped me to wash my brain from idolatric islam.
But reading quran with new eyes and new brain helped me to wash my brain from atheists lies and removed all what remained from "traditionnal islam".Peace
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Like you, after going out from the idolatry i thought it was islam, i knocked the doors of atheism but i never entered there even if i discovered more and more lies in "traditional islam".
However, i have to recognize that reading atheists helped me to wash my brain from idolatric islam.
But reading quran with new eyes and new brain helped me to wash my brain from atheists lies and removed all what remained from "traditionnal islam".Peace
Perhaps it would help if you elaborated addressing the specific confusion that Confused is having. Examples of specific atheist lies.
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Peace,
There was a time when I disputed with other faiths and atheists and other belief systems,
it was a continuing battle of ideas, but as I incorporated daily reading of the Quran,
salat and zakat in my life I understood that it was not about anyone or anything else, but between
me and my lord. The need for consensus slowly slipped away and the ayats of our lord
became truer than everIn the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."I no longer care what somebody else believes, God says he will decide between us
on judgement day. God says that we will be tested by one another.Religious tolerance is a great thing because God did not create us all alike.
I accept the Quran when it says fight those in war who agress you but if they
desist leave them be.There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected
I realize that God does not want certain people to believe
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.
Peace O0
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Peace, StopS.
I partially disagree. Religious fundamentalists reject those scientific determinations because their theological convictions teach them otherwise. It's not particularly because they choose not to accept reality. There are still Muslims in Arabic countries who teach that the Earth is flat and sitting on a trail of camels! Yes, they're choosing to accept nonsense; but only because they have a preestablished faith in their theological principles - in this case, hadiyths that teach that foolishness... Can I wake up one morning, say, "Hey, I want to believe in angels and demons today," and actually believe it instantaneously? Of course not. It has to be conditioned and established. Otherwise, I'm just claiming to believe it; I don't actually believe in it.
And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.
Peace,
Ahmad
I think I understand you 100% and yes, I agree, there are instances where it does not make any sense.
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Ok I am not God. So tell us what evidence you need. What would you consider to be an evidence needed for you to believe in God?
I am also not god, so how can I know what is possible and what the right way is?
I can only go by what is offered by humans and that is truly not sufficient. What is sufficient in your eyes and what would convince you if you came from a remote island and had never heard of the concept of a god?
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I think I understand you 100% and yes, I agree, there are instances where it does not make any sense.
Does it make sense for a limited mind to understand the limitless? Finite entity to understand the infinite?
You understand only what you are capable of understanding, within your finite existence and perceptions.
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If you are coherent with yourself, you cannot reject GOD because of all hersays that idolaters and atheists said about him.
May I ask whether for you, the alternative and opposite of Islam is idolatry?
If a person does not accept the ideology of Islam that person automatically is an idolater. No other alternative possible?Oh and just by the way an atheist does not see any evidence for the existence of a god and cannot say anything about what has no evidence.