Knocking on the doors of atheism

StopS

Sorry StopS
i hope that you can accept the fact that StopSpedia can't be a reference in our discussion. be aware. According to Quran, atheist are lost in their lmagination and follows their own inventions.

Do you think you do just a tiny, little thing before writing something here? It's really very little effort and saves everyone a lot of time, effort and frustration.

Go to Wikipedia, enter the word or question you have a problem with and then find the definitions, the quotes, the sources. You don't need to read them, just use this to do a very high-level, superficial check to see if you have at least a leg to stand on. Could you do that? Thanks. I would sure appreciate it.

Now Gnosticism (from gnostikos, "learned", from Greek gnsis, knowledge; Arabic &#8206

It is not made up by my but you can follow the etymology back to the ancient Greeks. A gnostic has knowledge and knows, the agnostic does not.

Similarly Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

This is, as you can see, also not made up by me and handles belief, not knowledge. So, not in the broadest sense, but for this particular case, theism is the belief that evidence for the existence of a god exists. Atheism does not.

Can you accept that or not? I know it does not fit into your agenda and intent, but that's a fact.

no proof of existence is not proof of inexistence

I absolutely agree with you.

Quran says muslims "BELIEVE" in GOD without seeing him. (Bil Ghaieb).
So, existence of GOD or inexistence of GOD is a kind of personal conclusion one reachs after seeing all the signs. Quran is clear. I can't proove you anything.

And?

Now, there is big difference between you and me. I have a book (quran) and you don't. You can read my book and i can't read your SoftSpedia.
Of course, you can find many conter arguments in books of so called islamic scholars. But if you can find an "error" in Quran, please post it.

Finally, i wonder what are you doing in free-minds website if you have complete lack of believe. Like confused, It seems like if you are knocking on the doors but from the other side. I dont know if you want to enter or just want to attract confused.

Why would I need a book telling me that I don't need to believe something exists without proof, without evidence and which is never visible and which nevertheless makes demands on me?

I can find counter-arguments? What for if nobody has successfully or convincingly made any pro-arguments yet?

What is an "error"? If I say the moon is made from cheese. Is that an error. Or an "error"?

Finally, if you wonder about something, why don't you simply ask? Have you thought about why I am here? Have you looked at my introduction (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604073.0?
If I knock on a door from the "other side" that means I am already inside and wouldn't have to knock at all, would I?
But you can relax, just like the Mars rover, it is curiosity that drives me.

hawk99

Peace Stop S,

You are a very confused individual, I am sure you know want you want, and your self
contradictory approach may somehow serve your intellect but nothing else.

O0

StopS

You are a very confused individual, I am sure you know want you want, and your self contradictory approach may somehow serve your intellect but nothing else.

Maybe you understand what you write, I sure don't

justamuslim

Finally, i wonder what are you doing in free-minds website if you have complete lack of believe.
Like confused, It seems like if you are knocking on the doors but from the other side.
I dont know if you want to enter or just want to attract confused.

It is one thing to read the Koran and another to see how what is said is so true. Some 20 years ago when I read about various kinds of people, I didn't get it of course. In the past 20 years I have come across lot of people and experienced much which has really helped to understand and appreciate the Koran. It is one thing to read about different kinds of people and then to actually meet various kinds.

People like StopS, Ahmad, etc...only help but provide support for what is said in the Koran. They are but an example of the kind of people described in the Koran. Not all atheist are alike though. Like I said most of the atheist/agnostics i know are turned off by the portrayal and characterization of God by people. Also, questioning and wondering about God does not make one an atheist as even the angels were bewildered when God created humankind.

My understanding is that the atheists God is referring to are the ones who are arrogant, egotistical fancying themselves as intellects, rational thinkers, ridiculing believers calling us delusional, gullible and such. The more these atheist expose themselves, the better so that people who are knocking on doors of atheism can see for themselves the examples of all kinds of people mentioned in the Koran.

What happened to confused? Please keep knocking on the door but don't open the door to atheism.

justamuslim

Oh please! Don't come with this old-fashioned and outdated presuppositionalist nonsense....

No, sigh atheism has nothing to do with science. Atheism is a reaction to theism.

You make a claim - you provide the evidence.
You make a an extraordinary claim - you provide the extraordinary evidence.

It is THAT easy!

Instead of diverting and shifting by putting me down, why don't you answer my questions? I find it interesting.

Why do I need to provide you with evidence for my claim or extraordinary claim? What is it that you are looking for?

StopS, clearly you have reacted to theism by stating that God doesn't exist. So why are you so worried and bothered by something that doesn't exist? Would a rational person argue with persons who are delusional and irrational? Sure doesn't make sense to me. According to you hell doesn't exist and so why are you bothered with what theist say about something that doesn't exist and argue with theist?

I have read your posts addressing theist about hell. Why does it bother you when theist say atheist are going to hell that you say doesnt exist. Sure doesn't make sense unless you are worried about where you are going to end up and very much bothered by it. Which means you believe hell exists.

noshirk

So this is why I look for answers to my questions on the various forums run by Muslims to understand Muslims.

Salaam StopS

May i help you.
You will never understand muslims because what you call Muslim is an entity that doesn't exists.
The word Muslim divert you. Under this word, there is a large community of people, so different, so opposed between themselves. They are divided in different sectarians groups.

If you want to understand what Muslim means, you have to "work" on the main "book" that is quran. It is the only common denominator betwwen all what you call Muslims. If you understand what Quran means by Muslim, i hope that you will be able to understand what "Muslims" and others cultures have done with the word Muslim.

Free-minds members represents a very very very litte part of what you call Muslims. They, in majority, try to better understand their religion and are psychologically ready to reject any "old" teaching. Really, there are a very very very litte part of what you call Muslims.

Quran says that Moses was Muslim, Issa and all prophets too. The most big surprise you may encouter is that quran is only a guide for islam, that people may be muslim while they think they are not and that to be a muslim is not an appartenance to a human community but a relation between a human and his god who give him an explanation for fundamentals questions like "why i am here".

In conclusion, if you are here to understand muslims, you will understand nothing.
Who knows ? Perhaps you will understand other things and perhaps there is something in you that is searching for other thing.

sorry for my english.

Peace

justamuslim

In conclusion, if you are here to understand muslims, you will understand nothing.
Who knows ? Perhaps you will understand other things and perhaps there is something in you that is searching for other thing.

Peace

I seriously question that. What is it that StopS is wanting to understand and why. what does he hope to accomplish or gain? Ridiculing, offending, arguing are not what I would consider trying to understand people and their beliefs.

hawk99

Peace justamuslim, noshirk,

Beware of those who pretend that their intentions are innocent and claim to be only
seeking knowledge but they are liars they seek only to harass the believers.
Contradictory statements, false definitions, false highmindness are tools of shaytayn
It is best not to respond and even better to ignore them.

Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

Peace O0

StopS

Instead of diverting and shifting by putting me down, why don't you answer my questions? I find it interesting.

If I ask you "what is the speed of blue?" and you don't answer, is it honest to mock you with you can't answer my question?

Why do I need to provide you with evidence for my claim or extraordinary claim? What is it that you are looking for?

Because the onus of proof is on the claimant. I am looking for answers. I am looking for reasons why you believe what you believe. I am not looking for proof or scientific evidence of the Koran.
I am interested in people, not books.

StopS, clearly you have reacted to theism by stating that God doesn't exist.

No, I have not.

So why are you so worried and bothered by something that doesn't exist?

Exactly, which is why I am not. I am worried about and bothered by people.

Would a rational person argue with persons who are delusional and irrational? Sure doesn't make sense to me. According to you hell doesn't exist and so why are you bothered with what theist say about something that doesn't exist and argue with theist?

How would I know whether or not hell exists? I am bothered by the concept. The idea.
I am bothered by the claim that I, purely due to my belief, should be eternally punished.
I am bothered that others, people who are a lot less altruistic or philanthropic than me, gleefully accept that they will recline on a heavenly chaise longue and watch with pleasure how I am tormented.
I am bothered that a god, who has the attributes powerful and merciful, would not stop a mere angel from corrupting his creation and then punish not the angel but his own creation on top of it.
I can't understand that a god, who is all-knowing and wants to have humans worshipping him, will create a human he knows will be an atheist and he knows full well this human will end up being punished in hell forever - and still continues creating me as an atheist. And is called merciful.

I am hoping the people who accept this with pride and joy can explain and make some sense out of this.

StopS

Salaam StopS

May i help you.
You will never understand muslims because what you call Muslim is an entity that doesn't exists.
The word Muslim divert you. Under this word, there is a large community of people, so different, so opposed between themselves. They are divided in different sectarians groups.

If you want to understand what Muslim means, you have to "work" on the main "book" that is quran. It is the only common denominator betwwen all what you call Muslims. If you understand what Quran means by Muslim, i hope that you will be able to understand what "Muslims" and others cultures have done with the word Muslim.

Free-minds members represents a very very very litte part of what you call Muslims. They, in majority, try to better understand their religion and are psychologically ready to reject any "old" teaching. Really, there are a very very very litte part of what you call Muslims.

Quran says that Moses was Muslim, Issa and all prophets too. The most big surprise you may encouter is that quran is only a guide for islam, that people may be muslim while they think they are not and that to be a muslim is not an appartenance to a human community but a relation between a human and his god who give him an explanation for fundamentals questions like "why i am here".

In conclusion, if you are here to understand muslims, you will understand nothing.
Who knows ? Perhaps you will understand other things and perhaps there is something in you that is searching for other thing.

sorry for my english.

Peace

If you really want to help, you could try and define Muslim.

The story with the book is not an explanation. You have different groups, which also base their belief on the Koran and are not considered Muslims by other Muslims.

People her at Free Minds are more advanced as they have thought about the Islamic secondary texts and have rejected them as being of human origins and thus falsifiable. Most Sunnis don't even know the difference between Hadiths and Hadiths Qudsi. They tend to mix different texts and some even call the Bukhari collection revelation. So that means I have also learnt a lot, especially on the Koran and the difference it makes if viewed with this exclusivity.

StopS

I seriously question that. What is it that StopS is wanting to understand and why. what does he hope to accomplish or gain? Ridiculing, offending, arguing are not what I would consider trying to understand people and their beliefs.

If you would sit down and think instead of coming up with knee-jerk reactions you would maybe understand what I am doing.

I react.
If someone like you writes some nonsense, I will call that nonsense. Should I say "bravo" because you are a Muslim? Do you require special rights or consideration?
If I have ridiculed someone, you should be able to come up with an example. I don't expect a quote, just your impression.
If I have really offended anyone it is not my fault. Everyone has the right not to feel offended.
Oh yes, I do love to argue. Especially when I know I am right. If I would be a Muslim I would probably say I was created that way. It comes from my passion for the truth. I hate lies and people wilfully deceiving others.

Now that you have demolished me, what constructive criticism can you offer? How would YOU approach Islam and Muslims when you are living with them on a daily basis?
What would YOU ask and enquire about?

StopS

Peace justamuslim, noshirk,

Beware of those who pretend that their intentions are innocent and claim to be only seeking knowledge but they are liars they seek only to harass the believers.
Contradictory statements, false definitions, false highmindness are tools of shaytayn It is best not to respond and even better to ignore them.

Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.

Peace

I could be offended by this - but I know this is just emotional, without facts and conviction, just hurt.

hawk99

I could be offended by this - but I know this is just emotional, without facts and conviction, just hurt.

Peace Stop S,

And why do you think it pertains to you?

O0

Confused

Thanks Justamuslim

If people don't want to be sincere then they can rot in the hell they choose to make for themselves, that is not my problem, I have enough of my own soul to deal with and I suggest you do the same as God says you cannot make the deaf to hear or the blind to see and there are some, to whom you can bring the best of examples and you cannot make them to heed. Now if God the almighty the supreme creator himself is telling you he will not make them to hear, who are you as a limited human being to try to compromise? Do you see where I am coming from?

Now me asking about a veil is not confrontation. I know people say silly things like "are you stupid?". That is certainly not my intention, I am a drop in the ocean like everyone else. It is a genuine question DO YOU HAVE A VEIL OVER YOUR EYES? CAN YOU READ THESE WORDS? WILL YOU RESPOND TO THESE WORDS? And clearly the word of God has been proven true, that these people are too blinded by their own egotism to even care to answer, too comforted by the seductive whispers of Satan to give a fleeting thought to that which might help. I am not asking whether anybody is smart or stupid. I am shining some morse code and asking if these people can read morse code. Otherwise what is the point of even saying anything when the other party is not even remotely sincere in their intentions to actually consider anything you present?

Hope this clarifies, peace

You crack me up, do you know that? My country is on fire today, it's been a constant stream of bad news., and I needed the laugh, thank you.

ps I love the use of "these people.' as if we are cockroaches or maggots. Remove the veil from YOUR eyes my friend. Religion is not just about worshiping God, it is about treating people right and you don't do that. What will YOU tell God, when he asks you on judgement day about how you treat people? I love how maniacs like you are so worried about saving the souls of others but ignore their own rotten souls. If there is a God, it will be you who will be crying to him, not me. What is all this agression and vile directed at me anyway? Just because I questioned your belief system? If your faith was so strong, would you have been rattled by the announcement, of someone you don't even know, an anonymous person, that they are now atheists?
You are simply an insecure person and I wish you never came on this thread. I've been following the posts here and they are all insightful and interesting. Everyone has contributed something interesting, everyone has presented thought provoking information. Except you, you just rant. Continue ranting. I can't wait for your next nonsense post about how I have a veil over my eyes and blah blah blah zzzzzz. As a matter of fact, I will skip your posts from now on. You are just a waste of time.

GODsubmitter

O no, nobody can save no-one! There is absolutelly no intersession of any kind at all!!!

To believe that anyone, other than God, can intercede on our behalf to have our sins forgiven or our wishes fulfilled, is to set up partners with God. This is idolatry. The Quran proclaims that "All intercession belongs to God" (3944), and that there will be "no intercession on the Day of Judgment" (2254).

The myth of intercession is one of Satan's most effective tricks to dupe millions of people into idol worship. Millions of Christians believe that Jesus will intercede for them at God, and millions of Muslims believe that Muhammad will intercede on their behalf. Consequently, these people idolize Jesus and Muhammad.

Important to read
The Myth of Intercession
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix8.html

http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/SP/2004/feb/page1.html

Have a nice time

noshirk

If you really want to help, you could try and define Muslim.

Salaam StopS

it is not my duty to define what is a muslim. Quran is here for that.

However, i'll will give you my "minimal" d?finition but it is mine and it is controversial and there is few members in free-minds who will agree.

To be a Muslim is
1- To believe in a unique GOD who created universe and life
2- To believe in the thereafter and in a final justice and that life is "a kind of test".
3- Not to invent lies nor contribute to propagate lies about God and not to take humans as Masters, tutors in the religious field. Whe have to put faith only in God.

Point 3 eliminates majority of so called muslims for my definition.

To be a Muslim ++, that is a Moomin (believer), we should add
4- Spent money and effort and eventually life in Name of God to please him. That means helping others, charity and defending Muslims against agression.

The effort sense can be extented to the intellectual effort Studiyng, reading, teaching, meditating all ayats (general sense wich include science like astronomie, biology...)

Of course, no murder, no theft, no lies, no break of engagement.

and of course, for muslims who had the opportunity to met quran during their life
identify quran as words of god.
read it , study it, get mind purification with it, use it to argue against arguments of disbelievers and use it to convince searchers of truth.

Hope you noticed that for me, many true muslims don't know they are muslims or muslims ++.
But as quran says, if they read it, they will recognize it as a parent recognize his childs.
Peace

StopS