Perception and thought in 4:3-Polygamy for pleasure or obligation
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Peace Mazhar,
I respectfully disagree with you. The sovereign king does not wish for injustice or divorce to result from the marriage (s), nor does He wish for us to abandon our common sense and logic. A second, third, or fourth marriage without mutual decision making is a real recipe for disaster. God knows His creation better than anyone else, and He knows how the married female population will perceive this. So, why make it a commandment, and then surround it with warnings regarding justice? How about justice toward the first wife?
This is an emotional discussion (this thread), it's not about parts of speech. How can you focus so much on grammar and ignore the human element in all of this? It's the human element that is the fuel for this discussion.
A marriage is not a marriage without mutual decision making and respect for one's partner. God knows this, of course. When will people realize it?
We go out of our way to do charity for others, but charity begins at home. Destroying one's home for the sake of helping another? Where is the sense in this?
Salamun alaiki,
Thanks for input.
Our all thoughtfully done actions are the result of a stimuli. These are of two types, done for personal reasons, and other done as duty, responsibility, obligation imposed by moral values and law.
Personal reasons are to meet the desire and appetitie of three areas of the body, chest, stomach, and the lower area to which relates the issue under study. Satisfaction of these desires and appetities give us pleasure. And pleasure is ofcourse something good, but only when it is not without qualification.
An Imperative/Command Verb when used by a Sovereign-King, Book of Law, it makes the subjects duty-bound to comply with that. The conditional clauses and resultant Verbs do not leave grey area to interpret it as "permission for those who wish to undertake it".
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Salamun alaiki,
Allah the Exalted knows the best about ground realities, various types and psyche of people, and accordingly issues injunctions and advices primarily to protect the vulnerables.
The law is always for the over all good of the society. Only the emotionalists, people who govern their lives not on physical realities and rational thinking but by passion will always be there even when the most ideal law exists on Earth.
It is not the question of grammar and human element. It is plain translation of the text of the Book.
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Peace Mazhar,
How can we divorce the human element from the plain translation of the Book? Whose translation is the correct translation?
If we are truly human, then are we not all emotionalists? Were we not created weak? How is one married without any emotional connection with their partner or is it merely a contract of convenience?
The overall good should be beneficial to all people, not just beneficial to one group while neglecting the needs of another.
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Peace Mazhar,
How can we divorce the human element from the plain translation of the Book? Whose translation is the correct translation?
If we are truly human, then are we not all emotionalists? Were we not created weak? How is one married without any emotional connection with their partner or is it merely a contract of convenience?
The overall good should be beneficial to all people, not just beneficial to one group while neglecting the needs of another.
Allah the Exalted best knows all these factors. Contact is the result of liking and mutual understanding-consent while caring for the accepted norms and law of the society. Allah the Exalted has provided laws and injunctions for meeting all such requirments.
Allah the Exalted has granted permissions to all women and men, and has laid the law where injustices can be done by either party and for regulating desires, emotions, etc etc so that pleasures are subjected to qualifications.
The operative part of the Guide Manual-the Book Grand Qur'aan is all about three parts of the body; Chest the centre of desires, emotions, passions, and what not; central part that has its own requirements to revert to dynamic balance of the whole body, and then the lower part without which the life would be robotic.
All desires and appetities of the operative areas of body need social contact with others and society. If everyone satisfies that according to his liking, there will be nothing but "fasad" in society. Therefore, the Book- the law regulates all those three areas caring for the needs of everyone without jeoperdizing the interest and rights of others.
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Peace Mazhar,
I guess we'll just have to disagree. -\
I can't help but know that my rights and interests would be infringed upon. I know that I will never tolerate a polygamous lifestyle regardless of the situation, and would initiate the divorce process. I'd rather be single and alone than live such a miserable existence.
I suppose it's one of those things that I can't get pass..
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Peace Mazhar,
I guess we'll just have to disagree. -\
I can't help but know that my rights and interests would be infringed upon. I know that I will never tolerate a polygamous lifestyle regardless of the situation, and would initiate the divorce process. I'd rather be single and alone than live such a miserable existence.
I suppose it's one of those things that I can't get pass..
What will do you in case of landing in the Paradise?
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Peace Mazhar
Do you mean that I won't land in Paradise for rejecting a polygamous lifestyle against my will?
Whatever happened to personal choice and freedom? I will not willingly suffer so greatly when there is no such requirement.
Oh no,
In Paradise you will be one of the four wives of your present day husband if he also lands in Paradise. That is the question. This also shows that women are larger in number in Paradise than the number of men therein. What will be your option then!
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Oh no,
In Paradise you will be one of the four wives of your present day husband if he also lands in Paradise. That is the question. This also shows that women are larger in number in Paradise than the number of men therein. What will be your option then!
Salaam,
rotfl
Salaam,
Benderor was it not supposed to be funny hmm
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Peace Mazhar,
Could you point out where in the Koran this fact is stated so clearly. Where does it make it clear to men that they cannot have sex with the mother of the orphans in these marriages?
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Peace Release,
I am a little confused. You seem to support the idea of polygamy for the sake of the unfortunate, but say you could never be part of it. If it is there to support society then surely you must follow God's laws. One cannot pick and choose. If you open up this option to society, some will suffer abuse under it. Because of this verse, many Saudi women wait until they are 30 so they do not have to marry a polygamous Saudi man. That is sad.
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Oh no,
In Paradise you will be one of the four wives of your present day husband if he also lands in Paradise. That is the question. This also shows that women are larger in number in Paradise than the number of men therein. What will be your option then!
Peace Mazhar,
I am very confused now. My landing in Paradise is dependent on my husband? Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I'm already have difficulty following the "nisa" arguement on the other thread.
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Peace Release,
I am a little confused. You seem to support the idea of polygamy for the sake of the unfortunate, but say you could never be part of it. If it is there to support society then surely you must follow God's laws. One cannot pick and choose. If you open up this option to society, some will suffer abuse under it. Because of this verse, many Saudi women wait until they are 30 so they do not have to marry a polygamous Saudi man. That is sad.
Peace Dawn,
As I've said before, it's something I wouldn't want to do. I know that I cannot handle it, and am better left divorced and forgotten. This is why I can relate to you on an emotional level. However, I can't speak for everyone. If there are women out there who are okay with this arrangement, then I know that it can help some kids in life.
Also, I don't believe it to be a law, where it's a commandment. I believe it's an option for those with the resources, time, and cooperation of their initial spouse. An option among other options (MMA, mentoring, contributing money, volunteering, even marrying off some of the women to willing, able men, etc). The allowance ceases to exist once the situation no longer exists on such a large scale within the society.
As for the Saudi women, we've already talked about this. I'd like to see how many of these Saudi men are marrying widowed women with children. The majority of them want young virgins to satisfy only their carnal desires. They don't want any responsibilities. 4.3 points toward quite a few heavy responsibilities.
The word "If you fear..." cancel out any polygamy for any other reasons beside the one we're discussing. Now how will we educate the Saudi clergy on this matter? We can't. We can only talk about these things on Free Minds. God will only change their condition if and when they make an effort.
Dawn, can you see that the Saudi clergy are those who do not reflect so much on the Quran? Can you see that much of Saudi society does not make a good enough effort to change their condition? Can you see that the women do not have the support of their menfolk to make some real changes that we can see right off. So, how can we compare their injustices and suffering to what we're doing here? We're making an honest effort here, and I have a feeling that most of the men here who are discussing, are monogamous and love and respect their wives very much. I don't think anyone here is really male chauvinistic, we just have our convictions based on what we know to be true.
Honestly, I feel badly for those women. However, their predicament has nothing to do with Chapter 4. It has to do with the fact their scholars are not reading and reflecting on 4.3. 4.3 has nothing to do with young virgins, my wife is barren, wife is chronically or terminally ill, I want more children, etc. It revolves around orphans. How could they have missed that? It's because they don't want to read it for what it really it. Remember, by no means, is this the first verse that they've blatantly ignored or neglected to understand.
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Peace Mazhar,
Could you point out where in the Koran this fact is stated so clearly. Where does it make it clear to men that they cannot have sex with the mother of the orphans in these marriages?
Peace Mazhar,
Is this your opinion? I am also interested in knowing where the Quran hints that these are marriages contracted withholding sex?
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What will do you in case of landing in the Paradise?
Oh no,
In Paradise you will be one of the four wives of your present day husband if he also lands in Paradise. That is the question. This also shows that women are larger in number in Paradise than the number of men therein. What will be your option then!
laugh laugh laugh
I hope that was a joke. This one truly takes the cake.
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Peace Mazhar,
I am very confused now. My landing in Paradise is dependent on my husband? Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I'm already have difficulty following the "nisa" arguement on the other thread.
Simple sentence interpreted negatively. A woman will be one of the four wives of a man in Paradise. She will remain the wife of her worldly husband provided he is also in the Paradise. It does not mean woman's entrance is dependent on husband. Husband Pharoah is in hell, his wife is in Paradise. It can be so with any married woman.