Iman Mumin Muslim
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Peace be upon you Dr,
I
need to have certain clarification from you with regard to the words
SUBMIT; HIGHER; AUTHORITY; LAWS; NATURE of Laws; UNCHANGINGPlease define each of the above. I will appreciate it if the definitions are of spiritual ascent rather than upon the declining down to earth worldly examples, carrying UNLAWFUL literal meanings
Submit- to allow the malaika(righteous thougts that come down with the God's life force/ruh) to guide your life, and give up the shayteen(rejecting thoughts) that lead you away from the God.
Higher- is symbolic like the top of a mountain, because the journey is steep and requires work, like climibg a mountain. Higher is same as being near to the God.
Authority- the ONe who is in control.
Laws- That which we are bound to, Cause and effect.
Nature of laws- unchanging while we are here in this phase of exsistence, The God describes it as "Mercy", for if we did not have LAWS, we would always be in a state of guessing, one day we can make ice in a freezer, but he next day we would have to try to figure out which law to apply to water to make it ice. So the God's MERCy, which He decreed upon Himself is the LAW.
Unchanging- does not change, sticks NEVER turn into snakes, literally.
, for we have to SUBMIT only to the LAW OF UNSEEN, believing in the LAW OF WISDOM which can be seen through the LAW OF VISION alone, when the veil before our eyes shall be lifted by the LAW OF ALLAH, the Higest Authority.
I agree.
Allah says He shall change even our identity as Man to monkeys and pigs not confirming to the 'unchanging' law of nature
No one has ever literally been changed into a monkey or a pig, but the character of man is subject to the UNCHANBGING LAW that you rea what you sow, if you sow a PIG LIKE mentality, you will reap the life of a PIG. There is NO CHANGE in that.
He can make the day or night still, lasting forever, which is against the 'unchanging' Natural Law
Yes the God CAN do this, but HE DOES NOT do this, because He has decreed upon Himdelf MERCY, which is te unchanging LAW, so that we can find our way on a solid foundation.
He shall icrease or decrease you life span
What he CAN do, and what HE DOES do, are two different things.
He can bring dead alive and make him speak He can make us also do the same by HIS LAW; He can change our worst crimes turn out to be Good; He can cleave the sea and make dry path; He can make the shadows stand still, an antagonistic to the unchanging Natural Law; if ever the water is sucked deep into the ground HE shall bringforth the water spring from the surface of the earth; He can create OASIS in the deserts! If you area a believer Believe in this!
What He CAN do and DOES do are different. No one is denying thePOWER of the Most High, but He has decreed MERCY, so we live by UNCHANGING LAWS. You don't really believe that a man split the sea LITERALLY, do you?
Such is the unfounded Laws, ever changing according to His WILL LAWS OF CHANGING, UNKNOWN , UNHEARD, UNSEEN, UNBELIEVABLE. Believe in the Almighty! Now go for the Book! There in it, is the SIGN, the changing Law - Al Quran - for those who believe!
Show me ONE LAW that changes.
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Peace all,
Ok, I may have finally pinned down the part of the believers v submitters article that was confusing me.
at the first half or thereabouts, the article talks about submitters, and the differences between these and the faithful.
it uses this verse to back up the definition of submitters
"Who can utter better words than one who 1) invites to GOD, 2) works righteousness, and says, 3) "I am one of the Submitters"?" (4133)
the article I believe then says
The Faithful = The Righteous
if the faithful are righteous, then how can a submitter be righteous too, if s/he is only a submitter?
have I missed something? ?
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Peace,
When I looked at multiple English dictionaries I found this in the unabridged 1913 Webster
Faith
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Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is
declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his
authority and veracity; reliance on testimony. -
The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of
another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he
utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of
any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.
Sadly more contemporary dictionaries lean this way which muddles the definition
loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"
complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" -
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peace Buzzor,
The part where it states "The Faithful = The Righteous" is not exactly based on solid evidence, at least, not in the surrounding context where that phrase appears.
Furthermore, I think its questionable whether 'mutaqeen' = righteous. I personally have not studied the term, but I know many people here regard the term differently (e.g. God-fearing / forethoughtful / guarding).I re-read the article, and I think its an important one to grasp.
2853 further supports my understanding as discussed on this thread.Wakas
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Peace
Show me ONE LAW that changes. - idolfree
By that do u mean to say you have understood the Law of Nature wholly? If it were to be true we could create and become creators of the universes ourselves. Am I right? If we consider ourselves in humility that our knowledge regarding the Law of Universe/Creation is pitifully deficient then we shall be unable to define which LAW is changed or unchanged or ever changing!
Consider this we know the LAW of Gravity. Pisa tower is considered a world wonder as it stands without falling though its gravity falls out side of its base.
Consider this we could see on the sea shores coconut trees leaning far far away horizontally from its base until finally it curves upwards. Where is the gravity of such a natural wonder? How will you explain your gravity theory with reference to this? Is the knowledge of the 'gravity theory' a nonsense or you still want to maintain that you have mastered the LAW of NATURE?
drfazl
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Show me ONE LAW that changes. - idolfree
By that do u mean to say you have understood the Law of Nature wholly?
Of course not, but that which I can understand never changes, and if you bring me an example, I can then TEST it and see if it will change.
If it were to be true we could create and become creators of the universes ourselves. Am I right? If we consider ourselves in humility that our knowledge regarding the Law of Universe/Creation is pitifully deficient then we shall be unable to define which LAW is changed or unchanged or ever changing!
Brother, no one has said not to be humble and know that we understand very little, but when you live your WHOLE LIFE retricted to LAWS, there should be a point in your life where you have faith in the CAUSE AND EFFECT(ending time) of laws.
Consider this we know the LAW of Gravity. Pisa tower is considered a world wonder as it stands without falling though its gravity falls out side of its base.
Probably from all the people that work consistently with LAWS to keep it from falling. D
"As of June 1999, the Leaning Tower of Pisa leaned an inch less than it had at the beginning of the year. It may sound like a small step for the tower, but it's a giant leap for the Pisa Commission in charge of saving the dangerously tilted structure. Here John Burland, a Commission member and professor of soil mechanics at London's Imperial College of Science, Technology, and Medicine, tells how perilously close the tower has come to toppling over, and about the painstakingly careful procedure to remove soil from beneath the north side of the tower to help ease it slightly back toward the vertical -- and toward a stability it has not known for 300 years."
"NOVA In your opinion, will the tower remain standing indefinitely, or is it still liable to sudden collapse even, say, after the full intervention?
Burland As far as the foundations are concerned, I'm satisfied that the tower would not be liable to sudden collapse anymore. I think we will have done enough to stabilize the tower permanently. By reducing the inclination of the tower, we've reduced the forces in the masonry, and we're also doing some strengthening. I don't think anyone could do more than we have done, but the masonry remains uncertain. We don't know exactly how strong it is. I think that if the tower were going to go, that's where the weakness would be, though it would probably require a pretty major earthquake or quite significant deterioration in the masonry itself for a major collapse to take place. "
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pisa/today.html
Consider this we could see on the sea shores coconut trees leaning far far away horizontally from its base until finally it curves upwards. Where is the gravity of such a natural wonder? How will you explain your gravity theory with reference to this? Is the knowledge of the 'gravity theory' a nonsense or you still want to maintain that you have mastered the LAW of NATURE?
I am not even sure what you are talking about regarding coconut trees, if you could elaborate, then I can give you an answer. Further, I do not have a "gravity theory" I merely used gravity as an example of law. Keep in mind that it is the knowledge of the law that allows us to create the mathematical equeations that we can use another law (whatever law jet engines use) to escape gravity. This does not mean that the law of gravity changes.
Even little kids understand gravity as the try to walk holding on to the furniture in your house.
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Peace all,
Ok after reading both articles, The Trust, andlooking back at the mumin v. muslim article it states the attributes of the 'faithful' are
- They have faith in GOD & His Messenger
"Mu'mens (faithful) are those who have faith in GOD and His messenger?" (4915)
This is much more than simply acknowledging One GOD, this is about establishing belief and faith in the heart and accepting GOD's messenger by taking on the responsibility of accepting the Book.
- They attain the status of having no doubt
"?and Attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever?" (4915)
They are faithful in what has been revealed, and its words only grants them more faith.
- They Strive with their money and lives
"?and Strive with their money and their lives in the cause of GOD. These are the truthful ones." (4915)
Having faith is just the '1st-step' to their journey?they are ones who put their money where their mouth is and strive towards GOD with their money and lives.
- Their Hearts tremble when GOD is mentioned
"The true faithful are those whose hearts tremble when GOD is mentioned?" (82)
- Their faith is strengthened by hearing GOD's revelations
"?and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened?" (82)
- They trust in their Lord
"?and they trust in their Lord." (82)
- They observe the Obligatory Worship/Salaat
"They uphold the Worship (Salat)?" (83)
Due to the journey that these people have undertaken, more spiritual linking with GOD is required through the method of establishing the 'Salaat' and constantly reciting the words and commands of the Lord.
- They give to charity
"?and from our provisions to them, they give to charity." (83)
They are also givers to charity in order to attain the 'purification/Zakat' that can cleanse the soul and perfect the journey towards GOD.
Result
"Such are TRULY THE FAITHFUL. They attain high ranks at their Lord, as well as forgiveness and a generous provision." (84)
To be faithful does one have to fullfill all those requirements, or does the acceptance of the quran make one one of the 'faithful'?
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Consider this we could see on the sea shores coconut trees leaning far far away horizontally from its base until finally it curves upwards. Where is the gravity of such a natural wonder? How will you explain your gravity theory with reference to this? Is the knowledge of the 'gravity theory' a nonsense or you still want to maintain that you have mastered the LAW of NATURE?idolfree writes
I am not even sure what you are talking about regarding coconut trees, if you could elaborate, then I can give you an answer.I wonder! What better example you need me to say than that of a coconut tree whose base is on one end while the whole weight of the tree false far away from its gravity ie. its base. Even the kids could observe this! that the gravity theory is useless to the core. You must say why the pisa tower has not fallen until today. I do not ask if an inch or half an inch it has leaned towards falling. God's nature is nothing that you know of! His Law is Be and It Is !
Your Iman is Law! Let the Invisible Power Granted By Allah Command at the nature ! The Law of nature is shattered; What you commanded is the Law! Rule over the Physical Law! Make the physics submit and change according to your Will and Command! Allah creates what you knew not! Allah makes all His creations subserviant to man!
031.020
YUSUFALI Do ye not see that Allah has subjected to your (Command) all things in the heavens and on earth, and has made his bounties flow to you in exceeding measure, seen and unseen? Yet there are among men those who dispute about Allah, without knowledge and without guidance, and without a Book to enlighten them!Peace
drfazl -
Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree writes
I am not even sure what you are talking about regarding coconut trees, if you could elaborate, then I can give you an answer.I wonder! What better example you need me to say than that of a coconut tree whose base is on one end while the whole weight of the tree false far away from its gravity ie. its base.
Brother, please have patience. This is not an argument, we are reasoning together.
Now, if you are talking about a simple cocounut tree, then I cannot see how this is "defying gravity", the coconut tree, like all trees, have roots that hold it firmly in the ground. Am I missing something?
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Even the kids could observe this! that the gravity theory is useless to the core.You must say why the pisa tower has not fallen until today. I do not ask if an inch or half an inch it has leaned towards falling. God's nature is nothing that you know of! His Law is Be and It Is !
I just showed you why it hasn't fallen, becuase there are men who make adjustments to the foundation, according to LAWS that allow for PINPOINT MATHEMATICAL calculations. Do you deny this?
Your Iman is Law!
Where have I said that? I have faith IN the LAWS, which is the Mercy the God decreed upon Himself. It is MERCY that we do not have to get up each day and GUESS how to cook food, stay warm, etc. We know how to do these things each day because the God has made UNCHANGEABLE LAWS that we can depend on, so we don't have to wander in confusion.
Let the Invisible Power Granted By Allah Command at the nature ! The Law of nature is shattered; What you commanded is the Law! Rule over the Physical Law! Make the physics submit and change according to your Will and Command! Allah creates what you knew not! Allah makes all His creations subserviant to man!
Can you please elaborate more clearly, I respectfully have no clue what you mean here.
031.020
YUSUFALI Do ye not see that Allah has subjected to your (Command) all things in the heavens and on earth, and has made his bounties flow to you in exceeding measure, seen and unseen? Yet there are among men those who dispute about Allah, without knowledge and without guidance, and without a Book to enlighten them!Yes, all things are subjected to the LAW.
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idolfree writes
Now, if you are talking about a simple cocounut tree, then I cannot see how this is "defying gravity", the coconut tree, like all trees, have roots that hold it firmly in the ground. Am I missing something?Peace idol,
If a tree has the "law of roots", a building has the "law of foundation"! The Engineering knowledge is so puny before the natural ever changing law. The 'world knowledge' is that any structure growing above the roots or built above the foundation, the whole weight of it must fall well within the borders of its foundation, or the root system. A coconut tree is an example whose whole structure that grows above its root system is well far away from it base, thus making a mockery of human knowledge! Human knowledge never can know the Law of nature, for it is ever changing!
peace
drfazlYou must say why the pisa tower has not fallen until today. I do not ask if an inch or half an inch it has leaned towards falling. God's nature is nothing that you know of! His Law is Be and It Is !
I just showed you why it hasn't fallen, becuase there are men who make adjustments to the foundation, according to LAWS that allow for PINPOINT MATHEMATICAL calculations. Do you deny this?Can you please elaborate more clearly, I respectfully have no clue what you mean here.
By your saying adjustment to the foundation, it means the Law of human understanding keeps changing in accordance with the Truth, ever changing! If the Laws do not ever change it means God is not the Creator, anymore! For He, as the Creator, keeps creating all ANEW! And He does not copy His own Laws and Creations as if He has exhausted His Wisdom to Create. Think more.
drfazl
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
If a tree has the "law of roots", a building has the "law of foundation"! The Engineering knowledge is so puny before the natural ever changing law. The 'world knowledge' is that any structure growing above the roots or built above the foundation, the whole weight of it must fall well within the borders of its foundation, or the root system. A coconut tree is an example whose whole structure that grows above its root system is well far away from it base, thus making a mockery of human knowledge! Human knowledge never can know the Law of nature, for it is ever changing!
Brother, what are you talking about? Lets just stick with the tree for a moment, do you not think that the earth is strong enough to keep a tree from falling? Take a pencil and stick it diagnally in the earth, do you think it will fall? What are you talking about ?
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I just showed you why it hasn't fallen, becuase there are men who make adjustments to the foundation, according to LAWS that allow for PINPOINT MATHEMATICAL calculations. Do you deny this?Can you please elaborate more clearly, I respectfully have no clue what you mean here.By your saying adjustment to the foundation, it means the Law of human understanding keeps changing in accordance with the Truth, ever changing!
What understanding has changed? The UNCHANGING gravity is CONTINUOUSLY pulling on a stucture that was not made correctly. So using LAW, they are able to make mathematical adjustments
If the Laws do not ever change it means God is not the Creator, anymore!
What?? NO CHANGE will you find in the God's way, NO CHANGE. This does not mean He is not Creator, new life appears each day.
For He, as the Creator, keeps creating all ANEW! And He does not copy His own Laws and Creations as if He has exhausted His Wisdom to Create. Think more.
Brother, take some time off and study science and math.
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Peace
This is where the whole problem is.
Brother, take some time off and study science and math.
I think this is the breaking point! So I keep cool.
Don't you know the science is evolving constantly? and math to support the science still premature? Can science evolve if it is perfect? If imperfect can you trust the science? Please specify one point. Is the science you ask me to read complete in its understanding of Laws of nature? Or it is not even a zygote( a conceived particle)? Do you ever believe the science can create any life?
If so, say if it can create a grain of sand which is full of life; a drop of water; or even an atom of air? But take care before answering that these scientists shall not use anything that Allah created. If the science cannot create life it is dumb and dead.
I believe there is no change in the Way that Allah creates
It is Just this "Be and It Is!!"
Science can never reach this ever. It is dead and perished. You want me to believe this indolent, imbecile subject called maths and science just for the sake of pride to call myself educated on these nonsense?Quran is to teach us Be and It is ! make a shape out of clay and breathe into it "In the Name of Allah " and there is life in it. But we keep on breathing into ourselves all the life since birth but we go down the drain and we die a miserable death at the hands of advanced science i.e in the western medicine.
Science ! advanced science!! damned !!! The doctors are best example of killers of advanced science! Mercy killing has come into place! Abin, Ganja, Morphine, and all mental intoxications have been introduced as the drugs of choice just to make you forget the pains of diseases. You want me to read and believe this killer science? Wake up to read Allah's command Be and It Is! Believe this !
Peace
drfazl -
Peace be upon you,
Don't you know the science is evolving constantly? and math to support the science still premature? Can science evolve if it is perfect?
Who said Science is perfect? AGAIN, you are putting words in my mouth, how long will this continue? The word "science" comes from "scire" which means "to KNOW". Science IS perfect, our understanding of it is not perfect. That the difference.
If imperfect can you trust the science?
It is not imperfect, 1+1 will always equal 2, but if someone has not understood that yet, they need to do more reflecting.
Please specify one point. Is the science you ask me to read complete in its understanding of Laws of nature? Or it is not even a zygote( a conceived particle)?
Yes it is, but the human undrstanding is that which is evolving. Scientists don't "discover" NEW things, they "discover" that which is alreay here, just not understood yet (prophet).
Do you ever believe the science can create any life?
The God creates life through the laws that we call science.
If so, say if it can create a grain of sand which is full of life; a drop of water; or even an atom of air? But take care before answering that these scientists shall not use anything that Allah created. If the science cannot create life it is dumb and dead.
Who ever said science creates life? You are pulling this debate off track.
I believe there is no change in the Way that Allah creates
It is Just this "Be and It Is!!"
Science can never reach this ever. It is dead and perished. You want me to believe this indolent, imbecile subject called maths and science just for the sake of pride to call myself educated on these nonsense?You can do whatever you like brother, but all foolish arguments will be crushed.
Quran is to teach us Be and It is ! make a shape out of clay and breathe into it "In the Name of Allah " and there is life in it. But we keep on breathing into ourselves all the life since birth but we go down the drain and we die a miserable death at the hands of advanced science i.e in the western medicine.
I have no clue what you are talking about, and why did you single out western medicine?
Science ! advanced science!! damned !!! The doctors are best example of killers of advanced science! Mercy killing has come into place! Abin, Ganja, Morphine, and all mental intoxications have been introduced as the drugs of choice just to make you forget the pains of diseases. You want me to read and believe this killer science? Wake up to read Allah's command Be and It Is! Believe this !
I think you should get better understanding of science, it means TO KNOW. I am not sure how you continue to equate it to doctors and medicine. What about natural herbs? What about the science of preventive health (eating right)? How do you take that which is wrong and compare it to science, but leave that which is right unspoken? What is your real agenda?
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Peace Idolfree,
drfazl Don't you know the science is evolving constantly? and math to support the science still premature? Can science evolve if it is perfect?
idol Who said Science is perfect? AGAIN, you are putting words in my mouth, how long will this continue? The word "science" comes from "scire" which means "to KNOW". Science IS perfect, our understanding of it is not perfect. That the difference.
I won't say any further, so as to not to put more words in your mouth.
drfazl If imperfect can you trust the science?
idol It is not imperfect, 1+1 will always equal 2, but if someone has not understood that yet, they need to do more reflecting.
wow! maths!!
Try this? Good + Good = 2 Goods? or TOO GOOD? math and science is clown!drfazl Please specify one point. Is the science you ask me to read complete in its understanding of Laws of nature? Or it is not even a zygote( a conceived particle)?
idol Yes it is, but the human undrstanding is that which is evolving. Scientists don't "discover" NEW things, they "discover" that which is alreay here, just not understood yet (prophet).
Give another name to your science in irder that we need not mislead the people. Let the name of the reality be The Truth! now talk about this puny 'science of destruction' to any extent, to make your replies perfect; there will be no opposition at all. Just to remove the confusion The TRUTH and the experi'mental' science.
drfazl Do you ever believe the science can create any life?
idol The God creates life through the laws that we call science.
Agreed God's science is ever living; man's science is dead already
drfazl If so, say if it can create a grain of sand which is full of life; a drop of water; or even an atom of air? But take care before answering that these scientists shall not use anything that Allah created. If the science cannot create life it is dumb and dead.
idol Who ever said science creates life? You are pulling this debate off track
Science creates not life is what you say. I say lifeless science is as good as dead.
drfazI believe there is no change in the Way that Allah creates
It is Just this "Be and It Is!!"
Science can never reach this ever. It is dead and perished. You want me to believe this indolent, imbecile subject called maths and science just for the sake of pride to call myself educated on these nonsense?You can do whatever you like brother, but all foolish arguments will be crushed.
Calling 'foolish' does not make the 'caller' automatically wisdomful. Wrong calculations the math and science do not help you here.
drfazl Quran is to teach us Be and It is ! make a shape out of clay and breathe into it "In the Name of Allah " and there is life in it. But we keep on breathing into ourselves all the life since birth but we go down the drain and we die a miserable death at the hands of advanced science i.e in the western medicine.
idol I have no clue what you are talking about, and why did you single out western medicine?
It is only to cite an example for only western medicine claims "it is scientific!" over all the 'healing systems' in the world
drfazl Science ! advanced science!! damned !!! The doctors are best example of killers of advanced science! Mercy killing has come into place! Abin, Ganja, Morphine, and all mental intoxications have been introduced as the drugs of choice just to make you forget the pains of diseases. You want me to read and believe this killer science? Wake up to read Allah's command Be and It Is! Believe this !
idol I think you should get better understanding of science, it means TO KNOW. I am not sure how you continue to equate it to doctors and medicine. What about natural herbs? What about the science of preventive health (eating right)? How do you take that which is wrong and compare it to science, but leave that which is right unspoken? What is your real agenda?
Real Agenda ? PEACE TO ALL !
Best Wishes Brother, I conclude.dr fazlur rahman
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Peace beupon you Doc,
I was hoping you would remain just a little longer, I wanted to as you what the God meant when He told us to say "my Lord, increase me in KNOWLEDGE"
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Knowledge is hopeless Wisdom is hope.
Increase my knowledge is increase my wisdom!Peace drfazl
Knowledge is hopeless without wisdom.
pzKhalil,
We shall rephrase thus
Wisdom is hopeless with knowledge
Or, Wisdom is Blessing if not tainted with knowledge ? -
Peace be upon you Doctor,
Knowledge is hopeless Wisdom is hope.
Increase my knowledge is increase my wisdom!Is this the response you have had us waiting for? You have got to be kidding me brother. You are saying that the God REALLY MEANT to tell us to say "My Lord increase me in WISDOM", but made a mistake and said for us to say "My Lord increase me in knowledge"?
Is that what you want us to believe?
