Hadith and Sunnah are not part of Islam????!!!!!

luckstar97

I am new to this forum. I found this by searching the internet for Islamic forums. When I joined I thought that this was I nice pleasant Islamic forum where I could learn. Soon have I realized that some of the views on here are (I would say kufr but it is not for me to say) completely against the fundamentals of Islam.

"What is your view on Hadith & Sunnah?"
Answered

"I reject them 100% because the Quran says it is detailed and all we need."
77% (535 votes)

This in my opinion is completely wrong. I will now show evidence to back up claims, opposed to the majority of people on here making up their own fatwas and rulings.

To truly follow the Qur'an, then we will realize that the Qur'an commands us to obey the Messenger.

luckstar97

"Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired." .

"Indeed, Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Qur'an), and purifying them, and instructing them (in) the Book (the Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah (the wisdom and the Sunnah of the Prophe), while before that they had been in manifest error." .

"Say (to them O Muhammad SAAW) If you love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you, and forgive you your sins; Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Merciful. Say Obey Allah, and the Messenger (SAAW), but if they turn away (then know), that Allah loves not the infidels." .

So let those beware who dissent from the Prophet's order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment. (An Nur 63)

"You have indeed a good example in the Messenger of Allah (SAAW) for whosoever hopes for Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much." .

"It is not for any believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger) have decreed a matter, to have the choice in their affair. And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger (SAAW) he has gone astray into manifest error." .

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept (them) fully with submission." .

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. (Surah An-Nisa, 80)

"And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from." (surat al hashr 6)

You know, the Prophet himself warned us of this 'time" when people reject him

The Prophet said, ?There will come a time when a man sitting upon his couch is told a hadeeth and he replies, ?Between us and you is the Book of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. What we find in it to be lawful, we take as lawful and what we find in it to be forbidden, we take as forbidden.? Indeed, what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden.?

Allah subhanoo Wa' Tala could easily have sent us only the Qur'an as a book, but He didn't. He chose to send us a Messenger to be an actual living example to us and to teach us what the Book was saying.

To fully understand the Qur'an, we simply cannot separate between the Sunnah and the Qur'an

luckstar97

My aim is to bring you back to the straight path of Islam as I believe that what you are doing is wrong. You are welcome to enter to a mature debate with me and I do not aim to insult, be rude, or disrespect any of you here.

Salaam

luckstar97

Bump

Jafar

According to you, what is islam?

Man_of_Faith

Peace luckstar97,

Problem is most of us believe we are on the straight path already by following the Quran alone and not man-made hadith.

We follow everything which is ordained in the Quran to the best of our ability, but we do not interpret the Quran the way you do.

May God have mercy upon us all.

good_logic

Peace luckstar.

There is nothing to debate. You have your "hadith" and we have our " best hadith". You are welcome to all the hadith you want.

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran, best hadith) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

End of conversation.

Peace.

Borakk

My aim is to bring you back to the straight path of Islam......

Your Muhammad couldn't bring anybody to the straight path, how do you expect yourself to be able to?

Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided 2856

luckstar97

Your Muhammad couldn't bring anybody to the straight path, how do you expect yourself to be able to?

Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided 2856

Ok, I was wrong to say that as it is Allah only who brings people to the straight path. Please don't pull me up over small details about the way I have worded my sentances, no one's perfect. )

Peace luckstar.

There is nothing to debate. You have your "hadith" and we have our " best hadith". You are welcome to all the hadith you want.

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran, best hadith) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

End of conversation.

Peace.

Not all hadith are fabricated. Yes there are some which are fabricated but these have been identified and books have been made containing all the fabricated hadith. There are some which are weak and are doubtful, these are also compiled in books so people are aware of them. Several scholars have dedicate their lives to collecting and authenticating Hadith, and to doubt that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did not say these Hadith is illogical. If we accept that the Prophet (SAW) did say and practice these things then I go back to the quotes from the Qur'an commanding the obeying of the Prophet. No doubt there are some parts of the Sunnah (like the growing of a beard etc) which are questioned as to whether they are culture or religion, but that is a discussion for a different time. If the Qur'an is commanding us to obey the Prophet then, if that does not mean to follow his Sunnah, what does it mean?

I also ask you this what is your response to the quotes from the Qur'an regarding the obeying of the Prophet (SAW)?

good_logic

Peace

It is you who is not obeying him

Shown below are two Hadiths taken from the Hadithists' most reliable sources, Sahih Muslim and
Is-haah Ahmad Ibn Hanbal

The Prophet said, "Do not write down anything from me except the Quran."

And according to

This Hadith states that the prophet maintained his anti-hadith stand until death.

Your hadith forbids you to follow " hadith".

The Prophet's sole mission was to deliver Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but Quran (320; 548-50, 592, 599; 619; 1340; 1635, 1682; 2454; 2918; 4248; 6412).

Delivering the Quran was such a momentous and noble mission that the Prophet did not have any time to do anything else. Moreover, the Prophet was enjoined in the strongest words from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (6938-47). He was even enjoined from explaining the Quran (7515-19) - God is the only teacher of the Quran (551-2) and the Quran is the best Hadith (3923 & 456).
Obeying the messenger is following Qoran Alone.

Peace and God bless.

luckstar97

This is one of the most quoted out of context lines.

"Do not write from me anything except the Qur'an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it." (Al-Bukhari)

Ulama have given many Interpretations for this Hadeeth

By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.
Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur'an and its preservation.
Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur'an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, there is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.

Examples of text (other then Qur'aan) being written in the time of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) are

A- What has been written by the command of the Prophet peace be upon him

1- The books of the Prophet peace be upon that were written to the kings and rulers of his era.

The Prophet peace be upon him sent numerous books to the kings of the Arabs and non Arabs of his era, inviting them to Islam and showing them the foundations of the creed of this new religion, and the texts of these books have been discovered in several hadith records and historical books. And the most famous of these books are

His book to Heraclius, Emperor of Byzantine
His book to Chosroes, King of Persia
His book to Muqawqas, the king of Egypt
His book to Negus, the king of Abyssinia
His book to the King of Oman
His book to ?Eyaahala, King of Humayr
His book to Hilal, Governor of Bahrain
His book to Al Haarith ibn Abi Shamar, King of the Ghassanids

The Treaties, Covenants, and Agreements

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, ordered a number of these treaties to be written according to need, and among those are

? The agreement with the tribe of Dhamrah upon their security and the safety of their individuals and property in return for their assistance in repelling the enemies from Madeenah, and that is in the 1st year Hijri (abbreviated as. H.)
? The treaty with the tribe of Ghatfaan during the course of the battle of Khandaq (the trench) in year 8 H.
? The treaty of Hudaibiyah between the Muslims and the Kuffaar of Quraish, the year 6 H.
? The treaty between the Messenger of Allaah, peace and blessings be upon him, and the ruler of Doomat Al-Jandal, the year 9 H.
? A peace treaty with the people of Aylah during the course of The Battle of Tabook.
? The peace treaty with the tribe of Baariq when they visited the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.
? The peace treaty with the tribe of Aslam regarding cooperation against the external enemies of both sides.
? A treaty of alliance with the tribe of Juhainah.
? A peace agreement with Bani Habeebah.
? The treaty with Thaqeef.
? The treaty with Bani Ghaffaar.
? The treaty sent to the people of Jarbaa? and Athrah and some of them came and visited the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, the year 9 H.
? The treaty with the Christians of Najraan regarding protecting them and their obligation of paying the Jizyah (taxes).
? The paper of treaty between the Jews in Madeenah in the beginning of the Hijrah.

The Agreements, the Decisions of Pardoning, and Giving Lands

A number of documents have been written by the order of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, among them are

? The pardoning of Suraqah Bin Maalik
? His agreement with Al-Azraq bin Umar regarding his residence in Makkah and his right of marriage to Quraish. ? The contract of giving Zaid Al-Khair some lands. ? The contract of giving Tameem Ad-Daari some lands. ? The contract of giving some land to Abbaas As-Sulami (or Silmee?)
? The contract of giving some lands that have water springs and trees and palm trees to Aqeel bin Kab.
? The contract of giving a farm to Riqaad bin Rabee`ah in Yemen.
? The contract of giving the tribe of Bani Qushair some lands.
? The contract that has the righst and obligations of Wafd bin Qais.
? The contract of giving Bilaal bin Al-Haarith Al-Mazani some farms of the tribe.

The writing of speeches and varying Ahadeeth, such as

? The writing of Khutbah (speech of) Al-Wadaaby Abee Shaah, and it is narrated in the Saheehain (Bukhari and Muslim). ? The writing of a Hadeeth byUtbaan bin Maalik,as in Musnad Ahmad (a collection of hadiths) and others.

B. the writers of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him (1).

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had a group of writers that reached sixty writers, and they had different specialization

The writers of the Holy Qur?an when it was revealed unto the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.
The writers of what the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, orders.
The writers of the letters to the kings and leaders.
The writers of treaties, pacts, trusts and other than that.
The writers of correspondence with the Arabs.
The writers of the religious matters.
The writers of the records of battles and war-spoils.
The writers who write what is between the people from agreements and actions.
The writers who replace the regular writers of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, once they are absent.

C. What the Sahabah (companions of the Prophet) wrote during the time of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him

A number of Sahaabah have recorded hadeeths from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, with the purpose of memorization or taking benefit from it, and among those1. The genuine journal of Abdullaah bin Amr bin Al-Aass, and it contained one-thousand Hadeeths. 2. The books of Sad bin Ubaadah. 3. The book of Muaath bin Jabal.
4. The book of Abee Raafi, the supporter of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. 5. The journal of Ali bin Abee Taalib.
6. The journal of Jaabir bin `Abdullaah Al-Ansaari.

luckstar97

So if your explanation of this Hadith is correct then how do you account for all the other writings done under the order of the prophet (saw). This Hadith does not mean what you say it does.

Abu_Sumayyah

Salaams,

I pray Allah most high guides us all to his pleasure and we are reunited with the righteous of this Ummah.

Brothers / Sisters i have read some of the things posted and well just wanted to really have a sincere dialogue as it seems everytime luckystar97 quotes some ayah they are not even looked at. Although i agree the brother was harsh in the beginning that doesnt mean he was not right.

I would like to ask the rejectors of Hadeeth, how do you Obey Allah and his Messenger as Allah most high commands it in his majestic book over 60 times. It is commanded explicitly to the extent that Allah most high says

"Say, "If you should love Allah , then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

"Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

These are only 2 of the Ayah in the glorious Quran which tell were revealed to Muhammad pbuh tell us about obeying him. There are in total over 60 which command it.
Most of these Ayah start with Oh you who Believe, not Oh Quraysh or Oh Arabs or Oh people of my Town. So my point is dont try and say these were only for certain people as this is not an answer it is merely not understanding or dodging the question.

I could carry on however i do not want to be lecturing anyone. May Allah guide us to What pleases him in this Dunyah and the Akhirah.

(A sincere response would be beneficial)

Some other questions i had were

do you have tafsir
do you beleive in the sahabah
to name but a few.

Honestly, hand on heart i find it really strange that someone can say they are so close to the book of Allah and not actually follow its command of obeying his messenger.

es

Honestly, hand on heart i find it really strange that someone can say they are so close to the book of Allah and not actually follow its command of obeying his messenger.

The operative word here is "Messenger". What does it mean.

Taken from http//oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/messenger?q=messenger

"Definition of messenger (noun) a person who carries a message or is employed to carry messages."

He is a Messenger, delivering the message of the Qur'an. That is what you should be obeying the Qur'an.

You add all those extra frills because you think that Allah is guilty of omission. If you need those, then, by your own admission, God is not sufficient for you.

And how do you justify that which directly contravenes God's command. Some think it is okay to kill apostates, adulterers/ adulteresses, gays. Where do you see this in the Qur'an? God is all knowing, all wise. Bismillah, God is merciful. When will you stop just saying it, but believe it too?

May Allah ta'ala guide us all.

Salaam.

hawk99

Peace,

"If I secure my camel correctly she will not get lost"

You can judge if something is correct or not by the results.

Has sunnism, shiaism helped or hurt it's constiuents?

Has the rise of hadith,sunnah based Islam given rise to non Quranic Islam?

If one would look at the sunni, shia world today would you say they are blessed or cursed?

The hadith, sunnah based believers falsely think that their dispute is with those who do not
believe as they do, but in reality their dispute is with God himself. I personally fear for my sunni
shia brothers and sisters the wrath of God because of the additions and subtractions to God's
laws.

Any community that believes will surely be rewarded for believing. For example, the people of Jonah when they believed, we relieved the humiliating retribution they had been suffering in this world, and we made them prosperous.

They are those who believe and lead a righteous life.

For them, joy and happiness in this world, as well as in the Hereafter. This is GOD's unchangeable law. Such is the greatest triumph.

Peace

Jafar

@luckstar97
you haven't answered my question, which is the fundamental yet most important.

According to you, what is islam?

Borakk

Ok, I was wrong to say that as it is Allah only who brings people to the straight path. Please don't pull me up over small details about the way I have worded my sentances, no one's perfect.

Personally I'm not as strict about rejecting hadiths as other people are. I think hadiths are good for studying the historical context of Muhammad and in some cases, may help to picture the circumstances under which certain verses were revealed or they might help in better understanding the history of Islam. However I maintain that hadiths are not a part of the religion of Islam.

The problem starts when hadiths suggest new rules and laws in addition to what is said in quran eg. circumcision, banning pictures, musics, mandating hijabs and burkas etc. Quran is clear that no other source of religious laws are to be used besides the book itself. (6114)

luckstar97

To start, I will respond to Jafar

@luckstar97
you haven't answered my question, which is the fundamental yet most important.

According to you, what is islam?

Islam is epitomised by the Shahada. "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah, Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah". A single, honest, sincere recitation of this line in Arabic is all it takes to become a Muslim. It is the first pillar of Islam and the most important part. To honestly believe that.

The first part "There is no deity worth of worship except Allah" is to accept Tawhid and accept the oneness of Allah, without partners etc and is to follow the Qur'an the literal word of our Lord.
The second part "Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah" is to accept the orgins of the Qur'an and the authority/position of the Prophet (SAW).

In the Holy Quran, we are told that Muhammad(SAW) was given the Quran and the Wisdom to understand and explain it to us. We are ordered to obey him(SAW) and accept whatever he(SAW) gives us and abstain from whatever he(SAW) forbids us , because he only conveyed what was given to him by Allah(SWT) .

@es

You add all those extra frills because you think that Allah is guilty of omission. If you need those, then, by your own admission, God is not sufficient for you.

Muhammad (SAW) only gave to us what Allah told him. I can guarantee that neither you nor the next Qur'anist completely lives their lives as Muslims without some influence from the Prophet's (SAW) teachings. He (SAW) is the one that taught us the key to the understanding of Islam!!! The two are inseparable, you simply cannot be a Muslim without the acceptance of the Sunnah as you are denying a key part of Islam. I am not saying that Allah has missed parts from the Qur'an, I am saying Allah gave us the Qur'an and the Sunnah together.

@hawkninetynine

You can judge if something is correct or not by the results.

Has sunnism, shiaism helped or hurt it's constiuents?

Has the rise of hadith,sunnah based Islam given rise to non Quranic Islam?

If one would look at the sunni, shia world today would you say they are blessed or cursed?

The hadith, sunnah based believers falsely think that their dispute is with those who do not
believe as they do, but in reality their dispute is with God himself. I personally fear for my sunni
shia brothers and sisters the wrath of God because of the additions and subtractions to God's
laws.

This brings me back to my earlier point. It seems as if you are dismissing the Sunnah as you don't like the culture/behavior etc of the PEOPLE who follow the Sunnah and Hadith. To say that you should look at a people and see how they act, and then go on to say that therefore their beliefs are wrong is foolish. It is the other way around the people's actions are wrong.

@Borakk

However I maintain that hadiths are not a part of the religion of Islam.

Once again I think it is impossible to separate the two as (see above) the Prophet (SAW) gave us the understanding to the Qur'an. We are told that his command we must obey and it is impossible to live your life as a Muslim and not do some of the things that are told to us by him (SAW).

The problem starts when hadiths suggest new rules and laws in addition to what is said in quran eg. circumcision, banning pictures, musics, mandating hijabs and burkas etc. Quran is clear that no other source of religious laws are to be used besides the book itself. (6114)

These are very common out of context quotes. These are only in certain situations and are portrayed as mutilation, oppressive etc, when there are simple explanations for all of them. I will agree that there is confusion between Deen and Dunya and not everything the Prophet did or said was meant to be copied exactly i.e cleaning yourself with stones after going to the toilet, or having a dislike for snake meat. I view it as this the Qur'an is there to teach us the theological side of Islam, the Sunnah is there to a) help us understand what those things mean in everyday aspects and tot each how to live our lives as Muslims.

I would like to finish by asking those of you who dismiss the Sunnah two questions
What is your response to the numerous quotes from the Qur'an regarding obey the Prophet (SAW)? (some may be out of context but not all of them are)
If you accept the authenticity of Hadith then, the Sahabah who followed him (SAW) on things like reciting dua before going into the home, or greeting with as salaamu alaikum, why were they meant to follow the Prophet and we were not. It does not make sense that they obeyed him and now we don't?
And as for those of you who doubt the authenticity of Hadith let me know and I will give you my opinion on that

I am not a Sunni. I am not a Shia. I am not a Sufi. I am not a Salafi. I am not a Qur'anist. I am not a Hanafi (unfortunately the list goes on)

I am a Muslim.

hawk99

@hawkninetynine
This brings me back to my earlier point. It seems as if you are dismissing the Sunnah as you don't like the culture/behavior etc of the PEOPLE who follow the Sunnah and Hadith. To say that you should look at a people and see how they act, and then go on to say that therefore their beliefs are wrong is foolish. It is the other way around the people's actions are wrong.

My reply was not personal but an observation having been sunni myself. The sunni,shia sects
have instituted additions and subtractions to the word of God, which are unlawful.

Peace

good_logic

Peace luckstar.

Here is a reproduction of part of the Preface of the latest edition of the Quran by Yousuf Ali, King Fahd edition. On page iii, we read the following

The Quran enjoys a number of characteristics unique to it ALONE, some of which are as follows

It is the actual Word of Allah; not created but revealed for the benefit of all mankind.
Most blessed is the One who revealed the Statute Book to His servant, so he can serve as a warner to the whole world.
It is COMPLETE AND COMPREHENSIVE. The Almighty says
All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book.** To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.
In another place we read

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters.

You are slightly behind, your scholars are admitting Qoran is fully detailed!

Peace.