New look at definition of "Riba"
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Salaam aleikom everyone!
I have been looking into the Riba subject for a time. As you all know, Riba is taken as a VERY serious crime in the Quran, and, those who knowingly swallow Riba will be thrown in the Fire forever (2275).
I know there are already many discussions about what Riba exactly is, and when we are dealing with Riba. I am not trying to make another topic of the same subject, rather, I want to discuss whether one specific look at the definition of Riba is correct, based on an example from a different verse. Maybe the theory is in fact just total nonsense, who knows. )
Quran 2275 (Yusuf Ali)
Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire They will abide therein (for ever).
Points
- Those influenced by the Devil say Trade is like Riba
- God permitted Trade but prohibitted Riba
- Those who, after receiving guidence, do not stop from consuming Riba will enter the Fire
Quran 2276
Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
Point made
- Riba increases one's wealth in this life, while Sadaqa (charity) increases one's wealth in the hereafter
Quran 2278-279
O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers.
If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.Points made
- We have to give up what remains of Riba
- If we do not, we will face war with God
- Taking Riba is to deal unjustly
Now, let us look at these verses
Quran 831-12
Woe to those that deal in fraud,-
Those who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure,
But when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due.
Do they not think that they will be called to account?-
On a Mighty Day,
A Day when (all) mankind will stand before the Lord of the Worlds?
Nay! Surely the record of the wicked is (preserved) in Sijjin.
And what will explain to thee what Sijjin is?
(There is) a Register (fully) inscribed.
Woe, that Day, to those that deny-
Those that deny the Day of Judgment.
And none can deny it but the Transgressor beyond bounds the Sinner!Please note that those people who deal in fraud, aka, mutaffifin
- get an increase (Riba?) by taking full measure from people while giving others less than the full measure
- are people who will enter the hellfire, similar to the previous quoted verses, which say that those who take Riba and do not stop so will have a war with God and his messenger
So
- Riba is not the same as trade, because in case of Riba, we give less than full measure
- those who do sadaqa (charity) give more than exact measure, while those who consume Riba give less than full measure
So, please let me know whether this way of looking at the definition of Riba is possible, and, if it is, whether it is correct.
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this topic has been discussed numerous times by many. i wrote the following almost a year ago
"Based on the Quran alone, ribaa cannot be translated as "interest". If one believes in Hadith, then it most definitely cannot be translated as "interest" because Hadith use the term in the context of like-for-like sales transactions, and not loans.
When the Quran refers to ribaa, it does so with respect to a very specific circumstance, namely, a loan made to a poor person, who, at the maturity of that loan, is unable to repay the full principal. According to the Quran, what the lender chooses to do at this point in time (and not at the beginning of the loan, as no mention is made of that) determines whether his/her actions are riba'a. Therefore, the concept of ribaa is not associated with the actual issuance of the loan, just what action a lender takes at the loan's maturity and the borrower cannot repay in full. Understanding that the Quran confines the concept of ribaa to this very specific scenario is crucial.
In one case, the Quran condemns the practice of "doubling upon doubling". The Quran warns that the lender should not do anything which will worsen the borrower's poverty and drive them further into debt such that they cannot come out. Based on this, the Quran is condemning any exploitative action which will take advantage of the borrower's weakness and drive him/her further into poverty. Default penalties (such as compounding interest levied on certain mortgage products in case of missed payments) is an example of something which can drive someone further and further into debt. Note that the lender is even encouraged to forgive the loan as sadqah - clearly, the lender is dealing with a poor person only.
The fact that Muslims continue to assert that ribaa is interest and thus endorse these form-over-substance sharia lending products is evidence as to how the actual wording of the Quran is continuously ignored. As the Quran states, Muslims will treat the Quran as a "discarded thing".
If one believes in the Hadith, ribaa is mentioned in the context of buy/sell transactions in 6 staple products (gold, silver, wheat, barley, salt and dates). As a buy/sell transaction is not a loan, taking to ribaa to mean 'interest' renders these Hadith nonsensical. In these Hadith, the Holy Prophet condemns Bilal's having exchanged inferior quality dates for a smaller amount of superior quality dates on a "like-for-like" basis calling it ribaa and telling him never to do it again. He should have exchanged the inferior dates for cash first, and then used the cash for purchasing the superior dates. As to the meaning of this Hadith, the theory is that, unless such goods are exchanged for cash first and then purchased, exchanging "like-for'like" leaves open the possibility of exploitation or unfairness which could not be tolerated at least for these 6 staple products. For example, a poor family with many mouths to feed may be willing to give up superior quality dates for a larger amount of inferior dates just so more mouths can be fed - the other party knowing of the desperation may thus negotiate in bad faith if the deal is done "like-for-like". Exchanging first in cash and then using that cash to buy the inferior dates is thus presumably the only way to ensure market fairness.
While I am not a big believer in Hadith, I merely point it out for those who do follow the Hadith and perhaps might find value in that aspect of the discussion."
My ultimate point based on the above, is that the situation actually described by the Quran is key.
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this topic has been discussed numerous times by many. i wrote the following almost a year ago
I know there are already many discussions about what Riba exactly is, and when we are dealing with Riba. I am not trying to make another topic of the same subject, rather, I want to discuss whether one specific look at the definition of Riba is correct, based on an example from a different verse.
Did you even read my topicpost?
I think I was very clear when I said that I didn't want to restart the same subject which is been discussed till death. I just wanted to show a different point of view.
When the Quran refers to ribaa, it does so with respect to a very specific circumstance, namely, a loan made to a poor person, who, at the maturity of that loan, is unable to repay the full principal.
Sounds reasonable, but your Quranic references are missing.
According to the Quran,
The sunni's say that according to the Quran, we have to follow the Sunnah of our Prophet;
The wahabi's say that according to the Quran, we have to kill every unbeliver, and we will get rewarded for doing so;
Please put forward your references. Everyone can talk in the name of Quran, in the name of God, in the name of Prophet Muhammed.Understanding that the Quran confines the concept of ribaa to this very specific scenario is crucial.
Indeed, it's very crucial. Yet I don't see any Quranic references.
Note that the lender is even encouraged to forgive the loan as sadqah - clearly, the lender is dealing with a poor person only.
Correction Sadaqa is for
They ask you, what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it."
Also, I have never said I belive in Hadith's, and that is something totally off-topic.
Nevertheless, I started this topic not to discuss Riba in general, but to discuss whether the above (my topicpost) given definition of Riba can possibly be correct.
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Quran 831-12
Woe to those that deal in fraud,-
Those who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure,
But when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due.
Do they not think that they will be called to account?-
On a Mighty Day,
A Day when (all) mankind will stand before the Lord of the Worlds?
Nay! Surely the record of the wicked is (preserved) in Sijjin.
And what will explain to thee what Sijjin is?
(There is) a Register (fully) inscribed.
Woe, that Day, to those that deny-
Those that deny the Day of Judgment.
And none can deny it but the Transgressor beyond bounds the Sinner!Please note that those people who deal in fraud, aka, mutaffifin
- get an increase (Riba?) by taking full measure from people while giving others less than the full measure
- are people who will enter the hellfire, similar to the previous quoted verses, which say that those who take Riba and do not stop so will have a war with God and his messenger
Salaam mohf,
They don't "get an increase" but they take exact full measure as per 832. Otherwise, the word "riba" could have used in the aayat for sure, but it is missing .
So, I think, this understanding is not correct as per the aayaats quoted.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan