Quran alone against history

mirjamnur

Salam
starting from several topics about prayer and the hajj and 'duties' from Islam , i wish to summarize the results and to present my conclusion from it. I ask for your thoughts. In advance thank you.

We have two possibilities, to approach to the Quran

First
we take the Qur'an as a rarity , exclusivity and unity, and the only authentic word from God. We consider simultaneously all other writings as partially falsified and so 'untrustworthy'. We question all the 'religious' history, as we know it, and conclude that this history was falsified by evil forces.

Second
We recognize the Qur'an as the final revelation of God's revelations in a cycle, which complement other writings , which partially are still present ,and correct them as needed. ( i.e. Murder, Prayer, veil, stoning, sacrificial rites). We recognize the 'religious' history, but we are aware that they may be erroneous thoughts in it.

View one leads one to interpret the Qur'an from scratch there is no ritual prayer, there is no fasting, Qibla is only to be understood allegorically, pilgrimage is only a debate with no particular place, etc.

View two leads to the fact that

-a prayer is accepted (is now being discussed the number, two or three or five or more,by look into the Qur'an (first source) and other scriptures and the history of religion for help.)

-that fasting is accepted (will be discussed by the length, and the right time)

-that there is a Qibla (discussed now is where it is looking for jerusalem, mecca, another place)

-that there is a pilgrimage (discussed now where and when? And for what purpose, and which rites?)

After my research i think that pretty the whole book (Quran) can be interpreted allegorically and perhaps this is also made from God to be aware of this fact this is an expansion - every aspect of the Deen gets so a figurative and spiritual side, which should complement each other.

I think the approach one is right

Because God has given us many verses about the other revelations and tells us that we find in them light and guidance
-because God has not sent down the Qur'an as a completely new revelation it is clearly in a religious context, the God himself also mentioned (former prophets, some peoples, etc.)

Sure, the entire history can be challenged -but honestly, brings it us further in our relationship with God? Or rather, it leads to lose the overview, getting lost in skepticism, and ultimately to see only trees but not the forest?
Salam

Borakk

Salam mirjamur

Thanks, you summarized the Quranist movement.

IMO, logically speaking, option one involves fallacies since the Quran's preservation and integrity is not without controversy by itself. It is also highly dependent on subjective interpretations based on one's desire. I've seen certain quranist groups (I call them 'lexiconists&#039 banning salat prayer, hajj, zakat, charity, argue alcohol is okay, zina is okay etc. They follow the method one and do not consider the Quran as a historical book. What this effectively results in is you can interpret anything any way you want. You just have to find the most 'suitable' meaning from a lexicon.

I follow method 2 and I think this is the correct approach. This approach encourages critical thinking and recognising perspectives on history (eg. is the cutting hand punishment applicable for 2012?)

Let's face it. No beating around the bush. There are a myriad of contradictions in the Quran. In some places it says the book is "clear" yet the Quran often lacks context and as pointed out, is 'allegorical' or simply ambiguous.

Man_of_Faith

In the name of God, most Gracious, most Merciful

Peace brother,

I consider the Quran to be an infallible scripture, as I believe God dids it to be the words of God.

However, it is highly recommended to follow this authentic book and God tells us to not follow conjecture, invented rituals, probably targeting mainstream hadith out there which is often severely corrupted. If you do not at least read and study the Quran, you risk following man-made religiously uninspired inventions.

It is possible to be a devout monotheist without even touching the holy scriptures, but it is of course quite hard, if possible. I doubt Abraham had access to any guide written down and he was a successful monotheist.

Of course he was divinely inspired, but also of good moral character. Although this is just speculation, I suppose the early knowledge was spread verbally only, as the concept of hadith.

The Quran makes it unnecessary to rely on common hadith, as it is perfect hadith.

So I follow the old ritual of submission to God alone, I do not need to study other hadith than the Quran, as the postures of the contact prayer are confirmed in it and the ritual is already performed by millions of people every day. All I have to think about is devoting my prayers, as well as everything else, to God alone.

I think we humans always complicate things by adding steps to the worship practice, and common hadith is an example of that.

You all have a fine prayer which is showing your submission to God alone, so why speculate in it so much?

And you do not need to read common hadith because you have the Quran. You never even have to touch it, and if you do it may be out of pure curiosity, but we should not listen to the nonsense. If the hadith say something nice you may learn from it, but never think God Himself advocated it.

May God help us solve our disputes.

unknownuser

OOooOOooooooOoooOOO I can already feel it, this is gonna turn into one loooOoooOoOOong discussion

NOMAD

SAlaam

Thanks sister good compilation indeed sun

let this exemple transalation of names of messengers wich are Proper names and is a rule in literature and cinema to keep the original names so i dont understand if quran say ISA is ISA and not jesus, others are concerning to Misr(not egypt) for exemple;

Quran must be studied as 1 single guide book completed,detailed,simple to apply because Creator wants easy and not hardship.

or We take all external rituals of salat,hajj,haircuting sacrament,sloughtering animals,etc---almost all this taken from the bigining surats.. or we take a deeper path wich will free you from ego will doing good actions and apllying Creator laws and not rituals...chapters Alfurqan and An-Nur have a incredble amount of knowledge and is very rare to have references or studies about them. so people give a speacial dedication to surat Albaqara.. and rest of Quran seems meaningless..
with surat Al Fatiah every bodey agree more or less with the same, but since we start baqara..division,separatism and sectarism begin voodoo

Salaam yes this topic can give wings to imagination O0 peace

Bender

Salaam mirjamnur,

We have two possibilities, to approach to the Quran

I do not agree. We have only 1 possibility, and that is Quran alone.
No history, no hadith, no arabic grammar, no lexicon, no science, no traditions, archeology etc.

Some people still think iQuran alone means they can take history, science etc. to understand The Quran, I strongly disagree.

View one leads one to interpret the Qur'an from scratch there is no ritual prayer, there is no fasting, Qibla is only to be understood allegorically, pilgrimage is only a debate with no particular place, etc.

Why is this the only possibility???
For example Did you check The Quran without any other sources and you concluded there is no fasting hmm If so, please let me know.

After my research i think that pretty the whole book (Quran) can be interpreted allegorically and perhaps this is also made from God to be aware of this fact this is an expansion - every aspect of the Deen gets so a figurative and spiritual side, which should complement each other.

nope I do not agree. As per my understanding, there is NOTHING allegorical in The Quran, ONLY if it says so.

Salaam,
Bender

Man_of_Faith

In the name of God

Peace Bender,

Thanks for good input, I agree, the Quran is a fully detailed guide for mankind, and also easy to learn! Never forget that!

May God guide those who are not yet guided

StopS

Why is the title "against" history? I think the Koran fits in nicely with what we know about the 7th or 8th century.

Does anyone else find that the Koran fits in with history as some things are not part of our contemporary society?
History is remarkably silent on the origins of Islam. Doesn't Islam continue along the lines of the Abrahamic religions?
Doesn't anyone find that Moses is the archetype prophet of the religion at the time, which serves as a template for Jesus who came centuries later who in turn served as a template for Muhammad, centuries later? Much like historical updates.
Sorry, but I am curious what people think about this because I had a long discussion on the weekend about this.

Bender

In the name of God

Peace Bender,

Thanks for good input, I agree, the Quran is a fully detailed guide for mankind, and also easy to learn! Never forget that!

May God guide those who are not yet guided

Salaam,

Thanks handshake

huruf

I am not very fond of categorical and exclusive proclamations about anything. God can do that, persons who do that alarm me.

My feeling with the Qur'an is that it should be taken on its own. Sometimes I see that people resort to history to explain things in the Qur'an and that sometimes those explanations contrived from history in fact end up conditionning the Qur'an to those situations, but the Qur'an itself does not include those situations in it. That does not prevent in turn some people from deriving from the Qur'an things that are not meant in it because it is describing a situation and the thing belongs to the situation discribed in the Qur'an.

In fact I do not think that we have to reject or be bound by anything other than the Qur'an. If it means something for us and helps us, good for us. If it does not then leave it. But I would not draw lines as if this was a mathematical procedure. Mind and inspiration are very clever and they find their way through any outlet or inlet. Or as the Qur'an says, wherever we turn there is the face of Allah.

Salaam

mirjamnur

In the name of God, most Gracious, most Merciful

Peace brother,

I consider the Quran to be an infallible scripture, as I believe God dids it to be the words of God.
yes as i do also

However, it is highly recommended to follow this authentic book and God tells us to not follow conjecture, invented rituals, probably targeting mainstream hadith out there which is often severely corrupted. If you do not at least read and study the Quran, you risk following man-made religiously uninspired inventions.
here begins the problem. well said. but how i can distignuish conjecture, invented rituals from 'real' ones?

It is possible to be a devout monotheist without even touching the holy scriptures, but it is of course quite hard, if possible. I doubt Abraham had access to any guide written down and he was a successful monotheist.
really from time to time i think it will be more easy without

Of course he was divinely inspired, but also of good moral character. Although this is just speculation, I suppose the early knowledge was spread verbally only, as the concept of hadith.
Allah speaks from Suhufi Abraham wa Musa (sheets)

The Quran makes it unnecessary to rely on common hadith, as it is perfect hadith.
yes, but the Quran mentions the previous scriptures as huda -aren't they inspired?

So I follow the old ritual of submission to God alone, I do not need to study other hadith than the Quran, as the postures of the contact prayer are confirmed in it and the ritual is already performed by millions of people every day. All I have to think about is devoting my prayers, as well as everything else, to God alone.
which old ritual?? from where? is the bible also 'only' hadith? yes, the prayer but what you make with the saum or the hajj?

I think we humans always complicate things by adding steps to the worship practice, and common hadith is an example of that.
yes this is sure true. i see this also

You all have a fine prayer which is showing your submission to God alone, so why speculate in it so much?

And you do not need to read common hadith because you have the Quran. You never even have to touch it, and if you do it may be out of pure curiosity, but we should not listen to the nonsense. If the hadith say something nice you may learn from it, but never think God Himself advocated it.
i don't know you speak now only from 'muslim hadith' or 'bible hadith' also? if first i'm agree. second not agree- i think that the torah (maybe not the complete bible) is inspired from God

May God help us solve our disputes.
Yes, indeed.

Salam Bender

Salaam mirjamnur,

I do not agree. We have only 1 possibility, and that is Quran alone.
No history, no hadith, no arabic grammar, no lexicon, no science, no traditions, archeology etc.
But what you make with the quranic statement from 'whats between his hands' - the previous scriptures??

Some people still think iQuran alone means they can take history, science etc. to understand The Quran, I strongly disagree.
confused but Quran itself speaks from the history from 'Qaums' from places.. i'm agree all this not touch the faith. this knowledge - whatever i take from it - it will not help me in any way to found God or to come really near from him.

Why is this the only possibility???
For example Did you check The Quran without any other sources and you concluded there is no fasting hmm If so, please let me know.
sure i will found fasting. handshakebut i can make different conclusion what this fasting is exactly. or i say as others, fasting has nothing to do with eating and drinking...

nope I do not agree. As per my understanding, there is NOTHING allegorical in The Quran, ONLY if it says so.
confused then Qibla, sujud, masjid, = all figural ? so you say only if Allah quote 'mathal' then it is allegorical?

Salaam,
Bender
waleika salam

Salam Nomad

SAlaam

Thanks sister good compilation indeed sun

let this exemple transalation of names of messengers wich are Proper names and is a rule in literature and cinema to keep the original names so i dont understand if quran say ISA is ISA and not jesus, others are concerning to Misr(not egypt) for exemple;

Quran must be studied as 1 single guide book completed,detailed,simple to apply because Creator wants easy and not hardship.

and you think that will be easy??

or We take all external rituals of salat,hajj,haircuting sacrament,sloughtering animals,etc---almost all this taken from the bigining surats.. or we take a deeper path wich will free you from ego will doing good actions and apllying Creator laws and not rituals...chapters Alfurqan and An-Nur have a incredble amount of knowledge and is very rare to have references or studies about them.
this is a very interesting statement. you can maybe open a new thread and explain more?
so people give a speacial dedication to surat Albaqara.. and rest of Quran seems meaningless..
with surat Al Fatiah every bodey agree more or less with the same, but since we start baqara..division,separatism and sectarism begin voodoo peace for you too

Salam StopS

Why is the title "against" history? I think the Koran fits in nicely with what we know about the 7th or 8th century.
you can put the Quran in the middle of the history or take the Quran alone...that's the point- you will arrive to completement different approaches- what we can see !

Does anyone else find that the Koran fits in with history as some things are not part of our contemporary society?
History is remarkably silent on the origins of Islam. Doesn't Islam continue along the lines of the Abrahamic religions?
Doesn't anyone find that Moses is the archetype prophet of the religion at the time, which serves as a template for Jesus who came centuries later who in turn served as a template for Muhammad, centuries later? Much like historical updates.

this is a good question... )
Sorry, but I am curious what people think about this because I had a long discussion on the weekend about this.

Salam and peace for all
peace

Man_of_Faith

In the name of God, most Gracious,
most Merciful

Peace mirjamnur,

Do not make the religion hard for yourself, do not reinvent the wheel, if you simply remove the idolatry from the existing religious practices performed by traditional muslims, you have the ancient monotheist religion of Abraham and no reason to be confused.

God commemoration Always
Zakat (charity) The excess
Mindset Righteous (follow God's descriptions of righteous people)
Regular prayers 5 per day 2 4 4 3 4 rakah (as per ancient tradition
The prayer No Muhammad, Ali or Abraham mentioned in prayer ritual. No salaam. No samiaa allahu liman hamidah.

stand - recite sura1 + optional sura
bow - say Subhana rabbiyal adheem
prostrate - twice - say subhana rabbiyal ala each prostation

Do the so-called takbir (say allahu akhbar) every time you change posture.

Above was 1 rakah explained
In conjunction to the prayer you may also talk to God (supplication, dua or what you want to call it). Intention of prayer is to contact the Maker, and seek His nearness and guidance, as well as protection from the evil one and his followers. And why not implore Him for things?

Source Quran only, Bible is obviously distorted (but you can find prostration in it!)

Do not forget belief in God and the Hereafter and you have the perfect formula for success.

Thank God frequently for every little thing you get, even your salary you worked for or the food on your table. Everything!

Hope I got my point through in this slightly unusual way.

God is the best guide

ps. I did not intend to belittle anyone by adding the prayer ritual, just showing how easy it is ds.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Forgot to mention the Shahada after completion of two rakah.

May God forgive me

Jafar

there are many other varieties of views
example

Third
We take the Qur'an among our many sources of WISDOM, we consider the Quran as a book among any other books which was written by human hands and could potentially contain errors and typos as well. We take what's good in it and we leave out / disregard of what's bad in it. The same attitude we take on any other books / sources of knowledge / wisdom.

Fourth
What is Quran? Never heard of it..

Bender

Salaam mirjamnur,

But what you make with the quranic statement from 'whats between his hands' - the previous scriptures??

Depends who it's talking about.

in this verse it's between the hands of Isa
546

But here it's not Isa, it's not Mohammed, it's not Musa, it's not Yahya etc.
in this verse it is what is between The Hands of AlHayyu AlQayyoomu
33

inshaAllah you understand what I am saying.

but Quran itself speaks from the history from 'Qaums' from places.. i'm agree all this not touch the faith. this knowledge - whatever i take from it - it will not help me in any way to found God or to come really near from him.

Can you please name me just 1 name of a place.

sure i will found fasting. handshakebut i can make different conclusion what this fasting is exactly. or i say as others, fasting has nothing to do with eating and drinking...

I strongly believe that if you take every verse in the best way you can, then it doesn't even matter how you fast as long as you have used only The Quran to your best knowledge to come to this understanding.
Allah made for every person a road and that person has to walk his road and not the roads others made for you.

then Qibla, sujud, masjid, = all figural ? so you say only if Allah quote 'mathal' then it is allegorical?
waleika salam

It depends what one understand under figural. Qibla for example simply means direction. Why should this be taken figurative. The meaning of the word is not figurative but how to understand it in some verses can be seen from a human point of view as figurative.
Let take for example the word YAD (=most of times translated as hand).
There are ayaats where it says "hand of Allah". You can take this figuratively as your common sense tells you that Allah's hand is not like ours. But you can also search for the core meaning of the word YAD. If you find this core meaning of the word (what obviously doesn't mean hand) then you will see that "YAD of Allah" is not allegorical but a real "YAD". The difficulty lies in searching for the true meanings of the words used in The Quran.

Anyway this is how I look at things I might be wrong. And may Allah forgive me if I said something wrong.

Salaam,
Bender

GODsubmitter

Usually I do not like "either/or" panorama.
There is only One God Alone.

Excellent posts and contributions @Man of Faith and @Bender. Thank you!

@Solomon, I like your new sigil, ups, avatar

mirjamnur

Salam Jafar
We take the Qur'an among our many sources of WISDOM, we consider the Quran as a book among any other books which was written by human hands and could potentially contain errors and typos as well

What is Quran? Never heard of it..
confused
you can please explain??
thank you!

Salam Bender

But here it's not Isa, it's not Mohammed, it's not Musa, it's not Yahya etc.
in this verse it is what is between The Hands of AlHayyu AlQayyoomu
33

anzalna aleika
anything anzal for you- 2.pers. sing. m. =is this not the Prophet??

Can you please name me just 1 name of a place.

mecca , bacca, misr, qaum al aika, midian, al araf,

strongly believe that if you take every verse in the best way you can, then it doesn't even matter how you fast as long as you have used only The Quran to your best knowledge to come to this understanding.
Allah made for every person a road and that person has to walk his road and not the roads others made for you.

Yes i try to study the verses as best i can. Yes you are so right- i can feel this in the moment as i feel when i was Christian and found the Quran. I look at the Quran and see many fascinating things and statements. Appealing to me totally 'new' concepts of the Hajj, fasting, prayer I just hope and pray to God that I did not leave the path of the 'Muqarribun'- maybe it's a whisper of Shaitan ie. my Ego / nafs that has enough of obedience ... & tempt

Salam man of faith
Thank you for your post. Your approach is the one from R. K. - but his conclusions are not pure from the Quran alone- also here you found 'old' rituals and concepts.

And i don't say that i don't like rituals- they help me alot- what i mean are they really wanted from God?
I think again, the devil is in the details-The prayer is beautiful but is a pain, when every detail is required. and also like GODsubmitter last time remarked God does not need anything from us
tempt
Salam all )

Man_of_Faith

Peace mirjanmur,

I was inspired by RK's arguments to purify Islam and I was convinced of the existence of code 19, but I am far from believing all RK said. God is the biggest source of inspiration, and please do not classify me as either this or that.

I follow Quran alone and I perform the thousands of year old prayer ritual. It is pretty detailed in the Quran.

I reject Hadith because I do not need it, the Quran as a guide is enough.

Bender

Salam Bender
anzalna aleika
anything anzal for you- 2.pers. sing. m. =is this not the Prophet??

Salaam Mirjamnur,

In 33 it's not anzalna aleika but nazzala aleika.

But I really don't understand what you mean. What do you mean with "is this not the Prophet"

Here again the ayaat
33 He sent down to you AlKitaab with the truth, authenticating what is between His hands; and He sent down AlTtawrata and AlInjeela.

Where exactly did the prophet come into play?

mecca , bacca, misr, qaum al aika, midian, al araf,

nope

Please recheck the ayaats where those words are mentioned. And I recommend not to use translations as they are unfortunately based on hadiths and The Bible.

If you like we can look at the verses 1 by 1. AlQuran is not a geography book nope

Yes i try to study the verses as best i can. Yes you are so right- i can feel this in the moment as i feel when i was Christian and found the Quran. I look at the Quran and see many fascinating things and statements. Appealing to me totally 'new' concepts of the Hajj, fasting, prayer I just hope and pray to God that I did not leave the path of the 'Muqarribun'- maybe it's a whisper of Shaitan ie. my Ego / nafs that has enough of obedience ... & tempt

How can shaitaan touch you if you do your best to follow the ayaats of Allah in the best way?
shaiaan has no power over the servants of Allah nope

Salaam,
Bender

justamuslim

God commemoration Always
Zakat (charity) The excess
Mindset Righteous (follow God's descriptions of righteous people)
Regular prayers 5 per day 2 4 4 3 4 rakah (as per ancient tradition
The prayer No Muhammad, Ali or Abraham mentioned in prayer ritual. No salaam. No samiaa allahu liman hamidah.

stand - recite sura1 + optional sura
bow - say Subhana rabbiyal adheem
prostrate - twice - say subhana rabbiyal ala each prostation

Do the so-called takbir (say allahu akhbar) every time you change posture.

Above was 1 rakah explained
In conjunction to the prayer you may also talk to God (supplication, dua or what you want to call it). Intention of prayer is to contact the Maker, and seek His nearness and guidance, as well as protection from the evil one and his followers. And why not implore Him for things?

Source Quran only, Bible is obviously distorted (but you can find prostration in it!)

ManofFaith, you mention that your source is the koran but the above details you have provided are not in the Koran. although hadith followers claim that hadiths are needed because the Koran doesn't provide details, yet to have someone refer me to the hadiths that provide details either.

And so my question is where did you or others get the above details and understanding?