Is Quran's origin Divine?
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As I understand Quran based upon its language. Which is completely different from all traditional translations. There are few questions that repeatedly keep surfacing again and again from others, as well I think myself.
What is the source? or origin of Quran?
Is it divine? if so what is the proof? The religious stories and
hadiths description of Arch angel bringing message to prophet can not
be forwarded as a response. Specially, If we reject rest of the accounts in
history and hadith.Furthermore, if it was divine and meant for human guidance? Why did
divine let it get lost like it is today?If it is not divine, then why it is relevant to most, especially
believers of divine?If it is indeed divine and was lost. What is any body's authority to bring
it back. Why should anybody believe in what we are understanding as
the correct translation?I just want everyone to share their thoughts in this respect.
Regards,
Badar
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Peace,
One thing is for sure, if God wants the scripture to be without corruption, then he can arrange that, it is easy for God to do.
If God wanted He could suddenly remove the Quran from the face of the Earth and remove the memory of it from us. This is also easy for God.
At least the Quran makes sense compared to many other writings out there. I find it too complex and intricate to be man-made. Also considering the 19 phenomenon in it, if you believe in it.
May God show us the truth
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Peace,
One thing is for sure, if God wants the scripture to be without corruption, then he can arrange that, it is easy for God to do.
If God wanted He could suddenly remove the Quran from the face of the Earth and remove the memory of it from us. This is also easy for God.
At least the Quran makes sense compared to many other writings out there. I find it too complex and intricate to be man-made. Also considering the 19 phenomenon in it, if you believe in it.
May God show us the truth
If you think it is not divine, falsification test is given in the Book. Go and bring a chapter like a chapter of this Book. No restriction of place, people, from whereever and from whomever you can get it. You do it and falsify the divine claim.
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If you think it is not divine, falsification test is given in the Book. Go and bring a chapter like a chapter of this Book. No restriction of place, people, from whereever and from whomever you can get it. You do it and falsify the divine claim.
Peace,
This is what is called circular logic. When just one word of the book, which is Allah, is coming out to mean "One who is not a deity for worship". How could one trust rest of the translation as to what it means?
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Thanks, please elaborate further. Also comment on other questions.
By this I mean I do not believe the traditional or religious minded view that The Creator/Initiator of all that is Revealed The Quran by way of what people call an Angel to a chosen human being. Neither do I believe that it is the narration or "Thoughts" of The Creator/Initiator of All That is. So because of this, I do not believe It/She/He is the author of The Quran.
As far as the other questions are concerned; since I do not have a religious view of The Quran and do not believe in the ahaadith or "Sirah" stories, I feel as though I can skip the questions referring to those things as they do not apply to me. The two questions that do apply to me I can answer
What is the source? or origin of Quran?
The only honest answer to this question is that no one living today can REALLY answer this question. The only way to know for certain was for any of us to have been there from The Quran's very inception. Without that, all any of us in the 21st Century can do is speculate or choose to believe one of the theories or stories that exist concerning this.
If it is not divine, then why it is relevant to most, especially
believers of divine?Well first I think "believers of divine" will most likely not appreciate the message and actual purpose of The Quran. So I would say that The quran is not meant for them. I believe it is relevent for two reasons
1). Human Beings all over the planet are affected by the contents this book either directly or indirectly, whether they like it or not, disagree with it or not and acknowledge being affected by this book or not.
2). Secondly, what this book has to say has massive implications for JUSTICE and PEACE. I believe understanding this book as it is instead of how we wish it to be presents to us what injustice and justice are and how to go about replacing a system of injustice with a system based on complete justice and establishing PEACE on planet earth. A very simple definition of justice is having an overall condition in which no one is mistreated and whoever needs help the most gets the most help. That's the very basic definition. What remains is the implementation of it.
Bkanwar, if you are interested I would like to offer a quick explanation on 2/23; the so-called "Surah Like It" Challenge...
I would like to say that I do not think that this ayat is saying to bring a "Surah" (Chapter) "like it".
According to The Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar and the Dictionary and Glossary of the Quran by John Penrice, the word SURAH does not simply mean "chapter" as in a chapter of a book, it also means something that climbs,elevates, soars up to higher heights. And the term "MIN MITHLIHEE" in the phrase "faatoo bi-surah MIN MITHLIHEE" is best translated as "INSTEAD OF or IN PREFERENCE TO" what is like The Quran since the word "min" does not only mean "from" but is also used as a substitute for " 3an " (about/instead of). This is evidenced in 938 when we are asked if we prefered "hayaatul dunyaa INSTEAD of Al-Akhira" -
Because of this, I believe it is saying to bring/produce/give/provide a "SURAH" (that which gives eminence, raises, elevates, gives dignity, rank and honor to human beings and the human condition) "MIN MITHLIHEE"/INSTEAD OF or IN PREFERENCE TO (THAT IS NOT LIKE IT OR SIMILAR TO IT) and it says this because it is those who are in doubt about it who express dissatisfaction with it. Besides, why would the author of The Quran challenge someone to bring something like it. That is not a true challenge. A true challenge would be to ask someone to bring something DIFFERENT BUT BETTER if they feel that they can. Anyone can plagiarize the contents of the message of The Quran, "doctor it up" and then say that they have brought something "LIKE IT". But the challenge is to bring something that IS NOT like it and yet still do an equal or better job of elevating ALL HUMAN BEINGS to ranks of honor and true dignity.
For this, it is our utmost duty to breathe life back into the message of the Quran by "implementing it full throttle" and once we see the results and outcomes of doing this it is then that we would truly realize the significance of 2/23.
I don't know if this is important to you or not but I thought I'd share it.
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Bravo Bro Damon, thanks for this detailed response. If I recall our interaction just few years ago and compare that with what have you said just now. I have to acknowledge that this could only happen to seekers of truth with sincerity as well due constant struggle to elevate oneself in right direction. Please keep it up.
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Bravo Bro Damon, thanks for this detailed response. If I recall our interaction just few years ago and compare that with what have you said just now. I have to acknowledge that this could only happen to seekers of truth with sincerity as well due constant struggle to elevate oneself in right direction. Please keep it up.
Thank You Brother Badar,
Yes, I had to practice true honesty and courage in order to intellectually grow. Not many people are willing to do that. And yes, looking back at our interaction a few years ago on that other forum I must acknowledge that you were already ahead of me since at that time I still had to much "Traditional Residue" and "Conceptual Barriers" that I had to rid myself of.
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What is the source? or origin of Quran? Is it divine? if so what is the proof?
If you think it is not divine, falsification test is given in the Book. Go and bring a chapter like a chapter of this Book.
? I do not think that this ayat is saying to bring a "Surah" (Chapter) "like it". ? And the term "MIN MITHLIHEE" in the phrase "faatoo bi-surah MIN MITHLIHEE" is best translated as "INSTEAD OF or IN PREFERENCE TO"
Besides, why would the author of The Quran challenge someone to bring something like it. That is not a true challenge. A true challenge would be to ask someone to bring something DIFFERENT BUT BETTER if they feel that they can.An explanation of 2 23
Every root word of Quranic Arabic is based upon a single concept. One word used in different situations expresses the same concept in the context of its use. Thus it may well appear to have different meanings but effectively it is always expressing the same concept.
The root-concept associated with word surah is that of something that fully encloses, encompasses, covers, envelops, or surrounds etc. something else, or possesses a station or place that gives it control over the other thing. The defensive wall of a city, for instance, is called a surah since it fully surrounds and encloses a city. Similarly the nobility of a people (who possess a controlling station in the hierarchy), and each higher storey of a building (since it caps all storeys below it) are also called surah .
The verb sara means the activity, effort, rush, or assault etc. to gain such a position over the other thing. So means the wine assaulted, or rushed into his head to take complete control of his faculties, and means the brave moved or fought to take total control of his opponent.
Each surah of the Quran is also called a surah since it completely covers a single message. Each surah of the Quran is a complete entity in its own right, quite unlike the chapters of a book which, by definition, cover only part of the message.
Furthermore Quran itself is also a surah since it completely and comprehensively explains this Universe. Indeed it explains this dynamic Universe as a purposeful entity right from its beginning (Big Bang), through its six evolutionary stages, moving in self-evolution towards its ultimate purpose . It explains the evolutionary product of each of the six evolutionary stages since the Big Bang, explains the current evolutionary stage in exquisite detail, relating the micro with the macro, the everyday activity of an individual with the evolution of the Universe. And it also indicates the evolutionary path of the Universe through forthcoming evolutionary stages. (Much more can be said in support of this claim but that shall take us away from the focus of this response).
Hence the challenge of the Quran in is that those in doubt should attempt to come up with a ?worldview? which explains this Universe as comprehensively as Quran.
The Proof that Quran is the Absolute Truth Leading to Proof of Divine Origin
Quran offers that it is in conformity with that which is within the reach, as the proof that it is . See, for instance, 3531. If it is then all of its claims, including its divine origin, are correct. A good part of this Universe is within the reach of mankind, and a great deal of knowledge about it has been assimilated. So determining the divine origin of Quran is well within the reach of anyone who wants to do so.
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An explanation of 2 23
Every root word of Quranic Arabic is based upon a single concept. One word used in different situations expresses the same concept in the context of its use. Thus it may well appear to have different meanings but effectively it is always expressing the same concept.
I have to disagree with this. One example is the root word and how it has a different meaning in 18/110 than it does in 31/7.
The root-concept associated with word surah is that of something that fully encloses, encompasses, covers, envelops, or surrounds etc. something else, or possesses a station or place that gives it control over the other thing. The defensive wall of a city, for instance, is called a surah since it fully surrounds and encloses a city. Similarly the nobility of a people (who possess a controlling station in the hierarchy), and each higher storey of a building (since it caps all storeys below it) are also called surah .
That is just ONE definition associated with the word which you are comfortable with according to your overall understanding of The Quran. OTHER DEFINITIONS of this word are the ones I had pointed out in my post above on 2/23.
The verb sara means the activity, effort, rush, or assault etc. to gain such a position over the other thing. So means the wine assaulted, or rushed into his head to take complete control of his faculties, and means the brave moved or fought to take total control of his opponent.
This root word also means to climb, rise, elevate, ascend, to be in a state of eminence. These are the definitions I had already pointed out.
Each surah of the Quran is also called a surah since it completely covers a single message. Each surah of the Quran is a complete entity in its own right, quite unlike the chapters of a book which, by definition, cover only part of the message.
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid there is a flaw in this view you have. NONE of the sections of The Quran which we call Surahs are actually Called Surahs by The Quran itself. And the very few times that this word Surah is used in The Quran does not cover every section of The Quran that we call "Chapters/Surahs" nor the contents of them. Also, The Quranic Usage of this word does not seem to paint the same picture that you are painting as far as why The Quran uses the word Surah.
Furthermore Quran itself is also a surah since it completely and comprehensively explains this Universe.
I disagree with this as well. I don't know if you like to keep abreast of NASA and many other institutes which do work in the fields of Astronomy and Physics but I do and I know for certain that there are many, many new discoveries and research on the Universe which The Quran doesn't even come close to covering or mentioning and the reason is that The Quran is not a science book just like it isn't a religious book. There are also so-called scientific explanations attributed BY MAN to The Quran which have met with quite a bit of refutation by people in the field of science. Again, The Quran is a Book of Social Justice and a book of Social Justice would be deviating from it's intended purpose by delving into physics, astronomy and botany as many traditional muslims believe.
Indeed it explains this dynamic Universe as a purposeful entity right from its beginning (Big Bang), through its six evolutionary stages, moving in self-evolution towards its ultimate purpose . It explains the evolutionary product of each of the six evolutionary stages since the Big Bang, explains the current evolutionary stage in exquisite detail, relating the micro with the macro, the everyday activity of an individual with the evolution of the Universe. And it also indicates the evolutionary path of the Universe through forthcoming evolutionary stages. (Much more can be said in support of this claim but that shall take us away from the focus of this response).
It is called the Big Bang THEORY and it is called this for a reason; because it's still a Theory. Not everyone in the scientific community agree with this theory.
Hence the challenge of the Quran in is that those in doubt should attempt to come up with a ?worldview? which explains this Universe as comprehensively as Quran.
I am sorry my friend, but NASA and the rest of the Astronomy community have come up with a 'worldview' which explains this Universe even more comprehensively than the tasafeer of the traditional muslims. I say the tasafeer of The traditional muslims because they are the ones who unjustifiably try to make the Quran into a science book just as they try to make it into a religious book. And when people from the field of science refute these so-called scientific facts of The Quran, both The Quran and the traditional muslim world are left looking foolish.
The Proof that Quran is the Absolute Truth Leading to Proof of Divine Origin
Sorry friend, there is no proof. If there was proof that it is the "Absolute Truth" then I would have to ask WHY so many people still reject this Absolute Truth which has so much "Proof"?
Quran offers that it is in conformity with that which is within the reach, as the proof that it is . See, for instance, 3531. If it is then all of its claims, including its divine origin, are correct. A good part of this Universe is within the reach of mankind, and a great deal of knowledge about it has been assimilated. So determining the divine origin of Quran is well within the reach of anyone who wants to do so.
The Vast Majority of this Universe is waaaaaaay out of mankind's reach. Because of that, there is SO MUCH about The Universe that we have yet to even scratch the surface on.
But I have two questions I'd like to ask;
1). You say that The Quran is "Al-Haqq". What do you mean by this? What is Al Haqq and Al Haqq about WHAT?
2). What do you mean when you say Divine Origin?
Sorry, this is actually more than two questions. D
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Shalom Aleikhem,
If you think it is not divine, falsification test is given in the Book. Go and bring a chapter like a chapter of this Book. No restriction of place, people, from whereever and from whomever you can get it. You do it and falsify the divine claim.
I am sorry, that is not a falsifiable thing. First of all, Qur'an may tell you to "bring another chapter like it", but it doesn't tell you who you should bring it to. See the problem? Who will be the judge? A hindu values and respects his/her vedas and will most likely never agree with you that whatever you wrote is better than his/her veda. A christian values his/her Bible and will not agree that your writings are better than his/her Bible or even the same for that matter. In the same sense, it makes no sense to ask someone to "bring a chapter/verse like it". No matter how many chapters I bring, muslims can always get away saying that "I don't find it good enough". This is because Qur'an provides no objective means of falsification.
Having said that, there is also a logical flaw in what you said about divinity. There is no direct link between writing a similar chapter like Qur'an and divinity. To claim that "God" wrote that book, you have to demonstrate that He did write that book. You can not shift the burden of proof on others by asking them to write something similar, which to begin with doesn't prove or disprove divinity in any shape or form.
Peace
---------- Student of Allah -
In the name of God
Shalom Aleikhem,
I am sorry, that is not a falsifiable thing. First of all, Qur'an may tell you to "bring another chapter like it", but it doesn't tell you who you should bring it to. See the problem? Who will be the judge? A hindu values and respects his/her vedas and will most likely never agree with you that whatever you wrote is better than his/her veda. A christian values his/her Bible and will not agree that your writings are better than his/her Bible or even the same for that matter. In the same sense, it makes no sense to ask someone to "bring a chapter/verse like it". No matter how many chapters I bring, muslims can always get away saying that "I don't find it good enough". This is because Qur'an provides no objective means of falsification.
Having said that, there is also a logical flaw in what you said about divinity. There is no direct link between writing a similar chapter like Qur'an and divinity. To claim that "God" wrote that book, you have to demonstrate that He did write that book. You can not shift the burden of proof on others by asking them to write something similar, which to begin with doesn't prove or disprove divinity in any shape or form.
Peace
---------- Student of AllahBeautiful Point Simply Illustrated!!!....
I can't agree more. It is not an objective question. A man from other religion will value his scripture more and the result of this challenge are bound to revert back...
Peace
Harun -
Shalom Aleikhem,
I am sorry, that is not a falsifiable thing. First of all, Qur'an may tell you to "bring another chapter like it", but it doesn't tell you who you should bring it to. See the problem? Who will be the judge? A hindu values and respects his/her vedas and will most likely never agree with you that whatever you wrote is better than his/her veda. A christian values his/her Bible and will not agree that your writings are better than his/her Bible or even the same for that matter. In the same sense, it makes no sense to ask someone to "bring a chapter/verse like it". No matter how many chapters I bring, muslims can always get away saying that "I don't find it good enough". This is because Qur'an provides no objective means of falsification.
Having said that, there is also a logical flaw in what you said about divinity. There is no direct link between writing a similar chapter like Qur'an and divinity. To claim that "God" wrote that book, you have to demonstrate that He did write that book. You can not shift the burden of proof on others by asking them to write something similar, which to begin with doesn't prove or disprove divinity in any shape or form.
Peace
---------- Student of Allah???
So?
What is your answer here? Is the Qur'an divine?Thanx in advance for the answer.
Peace
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Salaam GODsubmitter,
To someone who does not believe the Qur'an is not divine, it depends on the eye of the beholder. Qur'an is part of a grand Message and for someone who believes it is a narration of God, i.e. hadith. We are free to believe whatever we like, but Qur'an is the only alleged book of God which has made so much sense and seems "authentic". It is the only thing we can rely on except the code if we so choose to believe.
God bless you