How are lexicon books/grammar books/dictionaries different from ahadith?
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Salamun Alaykum,
The other day I was reading what opposers of Quran alone ideologies have written, and came across something along the lines of; how can they not follow ahadith books but at the same time follow classical dictionaries that were written in the same time or something like that. This kind of got my attention.
At the moment, I'm of the view that ahadith books and Sira of the Prophet and books generally on Islamic history written some 1200 years ago, have a lot of potential to be false, lies, truth mixed with falsehood, deceptions, and biased. Simply because these revolve around religion, and politics, and have a lot of tendency to be untrue. The authors of these books have valid reasons to hide the truth, or fool the audience. These reasons can extend from sectarianism, to opposition of religion in general, to political reasons revolving around caliphate, giving priority to one city/country/personality over another, and promotion of one's personal desires/agendas.
Classical Arabic grammar books and dictionaries on the other hand, are no more than what they claim to be dictionaries and grammar books. The authors of these books have more or less no reason to forge anything. If we look at things from their perspective, we can assume that most of the people of their era obviously understood and had knowledge of classical Arabic, the aim of these books being simply to compile that knowledge. No religion, no politics, no agendas, no sectarianism, or anything of the like.
But this is what I wrote on the spot, and can be wrong, so if anyone else would like to share anything on this topic, do reply. Also, if someone believes that the argument is correct, that we shouldn't follow anything of that era, do reply as well.
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Peace Fallen Angel.
This may not be of any help to you or it may be?
I see two baskets
1- Scripture/s from God
2- books from people.It does not matter what you call the books of men, I take them as basket 2!
To the majority this poses more questions than it answers.
Peace.
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Salam Good logic
Peace Fallen Angel.
This may not be of any help to you or it may be?
I see two baskets
1- Scripture/s from God
2- books from people.It does not matter what you call the books of men, I take them as basket 2!
Answer Quran pure divine origin
torah enjeel zabur falsified... divine origin
hadithbooks_ claiming to be divine origin
talmud mishna - claiming to be divine origin
science dictiionaries, grammatic books- don't claiming to be divine originso the discussion will start again- - Yes you are right with your statement To the majority this poses more questions than it answers.
Salam )
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Salamun Alaykum,
The other day I was reading what opposers of Quran alone ideologies have written, and came across something along the lines of; how can they not follow ahadith books but at the same time follow classical dictionaries that were written in the same time or something like that. This kind of got my attention.
Salaaman brother,
Red I agree with that totally, I strongly believe that their is no difference between "a Book of a Man" and "a Book of a Man", you can name them any.
In fact, the Book of our Creator cannot be dependent/based on man made book(s). I know alQuraan is sent down in Arabic language, but we have to understand that Arabic of alQuraan is different than Arabic of Arabs that they speak. So, when Allah said alQuraan is in Arabic language, it does mean that whatever and however Arabic is written in alQuraan IS the Arabic language, not what Arabs speak.
What they speak is their own language , but alQuraan is in pure Arabic language. There might be some words from alQuraan which is being used while speaking Arabic today, but not all.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His path pr
mmKhan -
Salam Good logicAnswer Quran pure divine origin
torah enjeel zabur falsified... divine origin
hadithbooks_ claiming to be divine origin
talmud mishna - claiming to be divine origin
science dictiionaries, grammatic books- don't claiming to be divine originso the discussion will start again- - Yes you are right with your statement To the majority this poses more questions than it answers.
Salam )
Salaam mirjamnur,
Red Sorry, I strongly disagree with you, this is because of 544 and 547 .
May Allah bless you and guide us to His path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam mirjamnur,
Red Sorry, I strongly disagree with you, this is because of 544 and 547 .
May Allah bless you and guide us to His path pr
mmKhanSalam mmkhan
i think i didn't write exactly what i mean-
i write from todays torah/enjeel - and i don't think todays torah/enjeel is exactly what Allah revealed. )
Salam -
Good, thanks for the replies guys.
Now I too have something to say
Salaaman brother,
Red I agree with that totally, I strongly believe that their is no difference between "a Book of a Man" and "a Book of a Man", you can name them any.
In fact, the Book of our Creator cannot be dependent/based on man made book(s). I know alQuraan is sent down in Arabic language, but we have to understand that Arabic of alQuraan is different than Arabic of Arabs that they speak. So, when Allah said alQuraan is in Arabic language, it does mean that whatever and however Arabic is written in alQuraan IS the Arabic language, not what Arabs speak.
What they speak is their own language , but alQuraan is in pure Arabic language. There might be some words from alQuraan which is being used while speaking Arabic today, but not all.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His path pr
mmKhanSalam brother,
No doubt that His book and his book have a difference. No book of Man can equate a book of God. However, I believe that the reason those who consult those Arabic language books is to understand the classical Arabic, not the Quran.
I don't want to sound rude, I am NOT taunting you, or being sarcastic in ANY way, but, you always focus upon evidence from the Quran. When people say things regarding it, I often see you replying that where the Quran says that, or how you straightforwardly say that the verse you are citing does not have the words you add, or how you point out misquotation of verses, which is a very good habit in my eyes, but brother, you yourself didn't bring up any verse in your reply .
Anyway, I'll point out the verses which revolve around this topic, perhaps we can all ponder upon them and finally decide what they mean
So indeed, We have made it easy with/in your tongue, that they may take heed/remember
Indeed, We have sent it down an Arabic reading/recitation (The word used is Quran as an indefinite noun) that you may understand/reflect upon
And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic reading/recitation (The word used is Quran as an indefinite noun) that you may warn mother of the towns and whoever around her/it
So indeed, We have made it easy with/in your tongue, that you may give tiding with it the Muttaqin
And We did not send any messenger except with tongue of his people, so that he may make clear to them
Has brought it down the trustworthy Ruh (Spirit?) upon your heart, that you may be of the warners
What do you think? This is quite an interesting topic.
And again, I apologize if my comment seemed rude, I had no intention of that, so don't take it the other way around okay bro?
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Salam mmkhan
i think i didn't write exactly what i mean-
i write from todays torah/enjeel - and i don't think todays torah/enjeel is exactly what Allah revealed. )
SalamSalaam mirjamnur,
I think, I take it in a slightly different way. As per 544 and 547 these aayaat are still valid and they talk about present alTawraat and present alInjeel. But the books people call as alTawraat and alInjeel are different than what Allah is talking about.
Hope you understand my point, inshaAllah. )
May Allah bless you, pr
mmKhan -
Good, thanks for the replies guys.
Now I too have something to say
Salam brother,
No doubt that His book and his book have a difference. No book of Man can equate a book of God. However, I believe that the reason those who consult those Arabic language books is to understand the classical Arabic, not the Quran.
I don't want to sound rude, I am NOT taunting you, or being sarcastic in ANY way, but, you always focus upon evidence from the Quran. When people say things regarding it, I often see you replying that where the Quran says that, or how you straightforwardly say that the verse you are citing does not have the words you add, or how you point out misquotation of verses, which is a very good habit in my eyes, but brother, you yourself didn't bring up any verse in your reply .
Anyway, I'll point out the verses which revolve around this topic, perhaps we can all ponder upon them and finally decide what they mean
So indeed, We have made it easy with/in your tongue, that they may take heed/remember
Indeed, We have sent it down an Arabic reading/recitation (The word used is Quran as an indefinite noun) that you may understand/reflect upon
And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic reading/recitation (The word used is Quran as an indefinite noun) that you may warn mother of the towns and whoever around her/it
So indeed, We have made it easy with/in your tongue, that you may give tiding with it the Muttaqin
And We did not send any messenger except with tongue of his people, so that he may make clear to them
Has brought it down the trustworthy Ruh (Spirit?) upon your heart, that you may be of the warners
What do you think? This is quite an interesting topic.
And again, I apologize if my comment seemed rude, I had no intention of that, so don't take it the other way around okay bro?
Salaaman brother,
I don't found your reply to be wrong or rude, specially when you corrected me by saying "you yourself didn't bring up any verse in your reply". So, I am thankful that you pointed out, inshaAllah, I will take care of it in my future replies.
And thank you very much for all the aayaat. I think 4458 makes it all clear , but 144 is very clear about it . To me, 122 is referring to alKitaab mentioned in 121.
427 is talking about alQuraan when we take it in reference to 619 where the word alQuraan is used.
26193-194 is not talking what you wrote bro. I see it as "Roohu alAmeen came down with it" 26193. Please take a look at other translations here. Also take a look at 162 to understand 26193 correctly. You can also click here to see other translations of 162.
Hope this may be helpful inshaAllah.
May Allah bless you and guide us to His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace,
Cannot Arabic have changed over 1400 years? I know no languages which have not changed over time. My own mother tongue Swedish is a lot different than for only 500 years ago and English I know has changed over centuries too. Also Persian has changed, according to my wife.
This can cause the meaning of words to be different today than 1000 years ago for example, or some grammatical changes etc. Is Arabic immune to such changes?
Even if Arabic speakers are pretty conservative. Cannot also those books you mention be twisted around the interpretation of the Quran?
I wonder if that is why we sometimes get so weird interpretations of verses.
May God enlighten us
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Much as classical Arabic dictionaries has help in shaping our understanding of some words in the great reading it has also created a
Salamun Alaykum,
The other day I was reading what opposers of Quran alone ideologies have written, and came across something along the lines of; how can they not follow ahadith books but at the same time follow classical dictionaries that were written in the same time or something like that. This kind of got my attention.
At the moment, I'm of the view that ahadith books and Sira of the Prophet and books generally on Islamic history written some 1200 years ago, have a lot of potential to be false, lies, truth mixed with falsehood, deceptions, and biased. Simply because these revolve around religion, and politics, and have a lot of tendency to be untrue. The authors of these books have valid reasons to hide the truth, or fool the audience. These reasons can extend from sectarianism, to opposition of religion in general, to political reasons revolving around caliphate, giving priority to one city/country/personality over another, and promotion of one's personal desires/agendas.
Classical Arabic grammar books and dictionaries on the other hand, are no more than what they claim to be dictionaries and grammar books. The authors of these books have more or less no reason to forge anything. If we look at things from their perspective, we can assume that most of the people of their era obviously understood and had knowledge of classical Arabic, the aim of these books being simply to compile that knowledge. No religion, no politics, no agendas, no sectarianism, or anything of the like.
But this is what I wrote on the spot, and can be wrong, so if anyone else would like to share anything on this topic, do reply. Also, if someone believes that the argument is correct, that we shouldn't follow anything of that era, do reply as well.
lot of problems because of multiple meaning they give to a singular word which has left individual to choose the one that suit their desires rather than the one that most suitably communicate what the God is saying.
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salaam,
The other day I was reading what opposers of Quran alone ideologies have written, and came across something along the lines of; how can they not follow ahadith books but at the same time follow classical dictionaries that were written in the same time or something like that. This kind of got my attention.
Those who follow a Quran based islam do not consider Traditional Hadith as compulsory, nor other man-made books, e.g. Classical Arabic dictionaries (CAD), grammar books. So we are not "following" them.
Traditional Hadith are a mix of truth and falsehood. Similarly, CAD will contain errors/etc. I think it is reasonable to suggest CAD will likely be less biased, less politically influenced etc but that does not mean they are bias/error free.
If we use CAD and grammar books to understand Quran (like we use other sources, e.g. biology, geology etc), that's fine, as long as we bear in mind Quran will be our ultimate criterion.
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salaam,
Those who follow a Quran based islam do not consider Traditional Hadith as compulsory, nor other man-made books, e.g. Classical Arabic dictionaries (CAD), grammar books. So we are not "following" them.
Traditional Hadith are a mix of truth and falsehood. Similarly, CAD will contain errors/etc. I think it is reasonable to suggest CAD will likely be less biased, less politically influenced etc but that does not mean they are bias/error free.
If we use CAD and grammar books to understand Quran (like we use other sources, e.g. biology, geology etc), that's fine, as long as we bear in mind Quran will be our ultimate criterion.
Well said.
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salaam,
Those who follow a Quran based islam do not consider Traditional Hadith as compulsory, nor other man-made books, e.g. Classical Arabic dictionaries (CAD), grammar books. So we are not "following" them.
Traditional Hadith are a mix of truth and falsehood. Similarly, CAD will contain errors/etc. I think it is reasonable to suggest CAD will likely be less biased, less politically influenced etc but that does not mean they are bias/error free.
If we use CAD and grammar books to understand Quran (like we use other sources, e.g. biology, geology etc), that's fine, as long as we bear in mind Quran will be our ultimate criterion.
salaam Wakas
Finally sun
salaam -
Peace All.
There is a very important criteria missed , to understand Qoran.
Using CAD, grammar books, hadith ... and relying solely on these will be wishful thinking!
Peace.
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Salaaman brother,
I don't found your reply to be wrong or rude, specially when you corrected me by saying "you yourself didn't bring up any verse in your reply". So, I am thankful that you pointed out, inshaAllah, I will take care of it in my future replies.
And thank you very much for all the aayaat. I think 4458 makes it all clear , but 144 is very clear about it . To me, 122 is referring to alKitaab mentioned in 121.
427 is talking about alQuraan when we take it in reference to 619 where the word alQuraan is used.
26193-194 is not talking what you wrote bro. I see it as "Roohu alAmeen came down with it" 26193. Please take a look at other translations here. Also take a look at 162 to understand 26193 correctly. You can also click here to see other translations of 162.
Hope this may be helpful inshaAllah.
May Allah bless you and guide us to His path pr
mmKhanWipes sweat off forehead that's a relief.
It was a mistake, they are two different verses, but by mistake I wrote the same reference for both. It was actually 4458 and 1997.
Okay, we'll dismiss 122, I too believe that at times there is a distinction made between Al Quran and Al Kitab.
I believe I understand what you believe about 26193,however, that was not the reason why I posted the verse. I used it for the part which says 'Upon your heart', which I believe should help us as well.
Your links were of great benefit, I actually didn't even know corpus.quran.com had that section lol although I've been using the site since a year.
salaam,
Those who follow a Quran based islam do not consider Traditional Hadith as compulsory, nor other man-made books, e.g. Classical Arabic dictionaries (CAD), grammar books. So we are not "following" them.
Traditional Hadith are a mix of truth and falsehood. Similarly, CAD will contain errors/etc. I think it is reasonable to suggest CAD will likely be less biased, less politically influenced etc but that does not mean they are bias/error free.
If we use CAD and grammar books to understand Quran (like we use other sources, e.g. biology, geology etc), that's fine, as long as we bear in mind Quran will be our ultimate criterion.
Salam,
Ah, bro, I love your approach to text. I didn't even notice how the word 'Follow' can make such a difference.
As for your take on CAD and grammar books, that's quite beautifully summed up as well. The thing is, as long as we are not taking any man written book as something of equal caliber as God's book, and ultimately use His book as the final judge over everything, there shouldn't be anything wrong in taking knowledge from other sources. However, this is not as easy to do as it is to say, because sometimes, we may not even know it, and we may be setting up the authors of such books, or our own ego as lords besides God.
The only that is left from that point, is comparing between man written books, and like you said, CAD and grammar books have a much lesser tendency to be influenced by corrupt intentions, politics, and bias than ahadith books.
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Good, thanks for the replies guys.
Now I too have something to say
Salam brother,
Anyway, I'll point out the verses which revolve around this topic, perhaps we can all ponder upon them and finally decide what they mean
So indeed, We have made it easy with/in your tongue, that they may take heed/remember
Indeed, We have sent it down an Arabic reading/recitation (The word used is Quran as an indefinite noun) that you may understand/reflect upon
And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic reading/recitation (The word used is Quran as an indefinite noun) that you may warn mother of the towns and whoever around her/it
So indeed, We have made it easy with/in your tongue, that you may give tiding with it the Muttaqin
And We did not send any messenger except with tongue of his people, so that he may make clear to them
Has brought it down the trustworthy Ruh (Spirit?) upon your heart, that you may be of the warnersWhat do you think? This is quite an interesting topic.
salaam Fallen Angel
Indeed this is quite an interesting topic, especially if all of sudden someone comes along and says; 'Allow me to teach you Quranic Arabic in English' hmm
salaam
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salaam Fallen Angel
Indeed this is quite an interesting topic, especially if all of sudden someone comes along and says; 'Allow me to teach you Quranic Arabic in English' hmm
salaam
Salam farida,
Indeed, it is an interesting topic. But if you don't mind, I smell sarcasm in your comment, am I right?
