Is Hijra from Yemen to Arabian side of Persian Gulf?

[noshirk]

in another post you said that Isa led Bani Israel to the promised land.

Salaam Mirjamnur

First of All, i want to mention that i can change opinion if i find a better interpretation or explanation.

I have now conviction that the main obstacle for understanding God's words is the garbage from others educators (Rabbs).
It is amazing for me, how i wasn't able to see meaning of quranic words i used to use in all days language just because scholars says " that word mean that".

For example, in all days language, if i heard the Word "El Massih" (the messiah) , i would understand "the cleaner", the "eraser". Massaha means to clean, remove dust etc...

Quran is a sealed book. Torah is not (2-75; 2-146; 3-78; 4-46; 5-13; 5-15; 5-41;7-162). However, many times, Quran point to it as a "must read" book and that its origin is from God.
As muslims are blind in front of Quran, it seems logical for me, that people who worhip a false God called Jesus son of a nun, aren't able to the see Yeshua Bin NUN in front of their nose. Story of Yeshua Bin Nun is in Bible. It is the sixth chapter (book of Josua).

let's assemble verses about Issa

Meriem is daughter of wife of Imran (3-35). Also daughter of Imran (66-12). Sister of Aaron (19-2. Aaron is brother of Moise (19-53 ; 20-30 ;23-45 ;25-35 ;28-34).
Torah also says that Imran has three childs (Miriam, Moses and Aaron). We are also told there that Josua is the student/servant of Moses, that he grew as his child and that he was designed by Moses as successor. Josua was a "prophet" and accomplished Miracles. He led the Bani israel army and installed them in the promised land. All that is the sixth book of the bible.

History of Jesus and history of Issa are total opposed. Jesus is a total looser. He failed every thing, even to give a book.
He was jailed, humiliated and killed.
Mother of Jesus seems also to have many other childs. Jesus is told to from descent of Abraham through his father who did nothing.

In the opposite, Mother of Issa is Daughter of Imran whose family was, with family of Abraham, over all the people (3-33).
Issa was sustained by God (3-54 ; 5-110), triumphed during his life (61-14). Has propbably a peaceful death (3-55). Received also knowledge at maturity (Kahl in verses 3-46, 5-110 means with white hair). Was an example for Ban? Isra?l (43-59). He was never killed (4-157). All bani israel believed in him before his death (4-159).

Torah and book of Josua give hus what seems to be the true history and help us to make links with other histories in Quran.
We know from torah that Yeshua Bin Nun was between the 12 spies sent by moses who explored the promise land. Only two where ready to "fight". It was Yeshua and a man called Caleb ben Yefunneh. This story is confirmed by Quran (5-23).
Our "friend", Jinn Dukhani noticed that Caleb means Dog and that Yefunneh is an unknown Guy in "jews" genealogies. He then supposed that Caleb is in fact the prophet Yahia who Muslims following hearsays think it is John the baptist (John the Baptist was decapitated in jail while Yahia was predicted to be a great leader 3-39). He noticed also a amazing sect called Mandeans who says to follow a prophet called Yahia an that seems also to believe, in his sacred book, the "Hara gawaita", that Meriem is sister of Moses.

Since we know from torah that Yeshua was from childhood with Moses and accompagned him, we can thus read with a complete new eyes sourate el Kahf and mainly the verses from 18-60 to end of sourate. It is really amazing when we try to read between lines.
We are told there that Moses and an "unknown boy" went to a junction of bahrein (two seas) where Chaytan make them forgot a fish (fish is particularly linked to theological exegesis about both Jesus and Yeshua Bin Nun and Nun means Fish in hebrew or aramean).
After the story of Moses with a man who "knows future", sourate 18 speak to us about Zul Qarnain.

When i began to write this post, i never thought that Zul Qarnein could be Issa Himself. I was quite sure that Zal qarnain was Cyrus II, the great founder of Persian empire of Archemides. However, i noticed that quranic Nassara (traduced by christians) can be zorostrians persians and that that hypothesis is of great sense in the geopolitical history of Muhammad appearing between the two super powers of that era. So if Nassara are persians then Issa went probably there and it could be a good explanation of Zul Qarnein name (Zul= who have and Qarnein=two qarns=two hornes or two era or two people).

Zul Qarnien is speaking directly with God (18-86). So Zul Qarnein is much more than a earth great leader. He was a "prophet" with the ability to speak with God. Qarn is generally used to mean people in Quran. So Zul Qarnein was probably a prophet who preached to two different people. 18-84 says that Zul Qarnein succeeded in all things in the earth. A serial winner.

Zoroastrianism, religion of persians, is a very intriguing religion. It seems even to have hearsays like talmud and Hadiths. I don't know much about it but i know that there is many similarites with islam and with "christianism". There is much to say about zorostrianism and also mithraism. There is also much to says about all the "sons of God" from a virgin in different religions and mythologies.
What is funny, is that from an historical point of view, nobody can says that Jesus is the first "son of virgin" and nobody can proove there was a son of virgin before the nephew of Moses.

Issa studied both Torah and Injeel (3-48; 5-46; 5-110; 57-274). Again, Issa can't be Jesus and Injeel can't be Gospel.
On another side, Nassara are told to read Injeel (5-47). So Injeel never disappeared.

The hypothesis Issa is the Biblical Yeshua Bin Nun and preached in Persia and delivered there the Injeel during the 40 years of exile solves all the problems.
But it is only an hypothesis and i haven't a better for now.

And why God says in the Qur'an that the 'Muslims' have 'inherited' the land from their opponents and their treasures and houses etc.? Where did this happen? certainly not in the traditional story. and could it be, that Isa and Muhammad was living in the same time? that the follower of Isa are the nassara and that muhammad preached the same *what was in his hand *

That is an easy point. For God there is only one religion. It is islam. Islam was the religion of Abraham, Moses Issa and All the prophets.
If you say "islam is the religion brought by Muhammad", you are probably committing a great sin.
Quran, Torah and injeel seems to be all extracted from one book, the original book, Ommou el kitab, in "the hands of God" (13-39; 43-4)

Islam is faith of Abraham (2-130 ; 2-135 ; 3-95 ; 4-125 ; 6-161; 16-123)
Abraham was Muslim (3-67). Also Isaac, Ismael, Jacob and ? ASBAT ? (2-140). Asbat are the jewish tribes (7-160).
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael (2-132) , Salomon and others (27-42), Issa and his apostles (3-52 ; 5-111).

There is even people who told Muhammad that they were Muslimouns before reading Quran (28-52 and 28-53)
Muslimous is a name given to "believers" by Abraham (22-7.

So, dear mirjamnur, never repeat again that islam came to us with Muhammad and never link it to period after Muhammad.
Only idolaters can't accept the fact that God transmitted only one religion (42-13).
Muslimouns of Torah, Injeel and Quran are from same religion. Divisions is only human partisanship.

Peace

[mirjamnur]

Salam noshirk

Salaam Mirjamnur

First of All, i want to mention that i can change opinion if i find a better interpretation or explanation.

I have now conviction that the main obstacle for understanding God's words is the garbage from others educators (Rabbs).
It is amazing for me, how i wasn't able to see meaning of quranic words i used to use in all days language just because scholars says " that word mean that".

For example, in all days language, if i heard the Word "El Massih" (the messiah) , i would understand "the cleaner", the "eraser". Massaha means to clean, remove dust etc...

Quran is a sealed book. Torah is not (2-75; 2-146; 3-78; 4-46; 5-13; 5-15; 5-41;7-162). However, many times, Quran point to it as a book of God that Yahood (jews) have to read.
As muslims are blind in front of Quran, it seems logical for me, that people who worhip a false God called Jesus son of a nun, aren't able to the see Yeshua Bin NUN in front of their nose. Story of Yeshua Bin Nun is in Bible. It is the sixth chapter (book of Josua).

let's assemble verses about Issa

Meriem is daughter of wife of Imran (3-35). Also daughter of Imran (66-12). Sister of Aaron (19-2. Aaron is brother of Moise (19-53 ; 20-30 ;23-45 ;25-35 ;28-34).
Torah also says that Imran has three childs (Miriam, Moses and Aaron). We are also told there that Josua is the student/servant of Moses, that he grew as his child and that he was designed by Moses as successor. Josua was a "prophet" and accomplished Miracles. He led the Bani israel army and installed them in the promised land. All that is the sixth book of the bible.

History of Jesus and history of Issa are total opposed. Jesus is a total looser. He failed every thing, even to give a book.
He was jailed, humiliated and killed.
Mother of Jesus seems also to have many other childs. Jesus is told to from descent of Abraham through his father who did nothing.

In the opposite, Mother of Issa is Daughter of Imran whose family was, with family of Abraham, over all the people (3-33).
Issa was sustained by God (3-54 ; 5-110), triumphed during his life (61-14). Has propbably a peaceful death (3-55). Received also knowledge at maturity (Kahl in verses 3-46, 5-110 means with white hair). Was an example for Ban? Isra?l (43-59). He was never killed (4-157). All bani israel believed in him before his death (4-159).

Torah and book of Josua give hus what seems to be the true history and help us to make links with other histories in Quran.
We know from torah that Yeshua Bin Nun was between the 12 spies sent by moses who explored the promise land. Only two where ready to "fight". It was Yeshua and a man called Caleb ben Yefunneh. This story is confirmed by Quran (5-23).
Our "friend", Jinn Dukhani noticed that Caleb means Dog and that Yefunneh is an unknown Guy in "jews" genealogies. He then supposed that Caleb is in fact the prophet Yahia who Muslims following hearsays think it is John the baptist (John the Baptist was decapitated in jail while Yahia was predicted to be a great leader 3-39). He noticed also a amazing sect called Mandeans who says to follow a prophet called Yahia an that seems also to believe, in his sacred book, the "Hara gawaita", that Meriem is sister of Moses.

Since we know from torah that Yeshua was from childhood with Moses and accompagned him, we can thus read with a complete new eyes sourate el Kahf and mainly the verses from 18-60 to end of sourate. It is really amazing when we try to read between lines.
We are told there that Moses and an "unknown boy" went to a junction of bahrein (two seas) where Chaytan make them forgot a fish (fish is particularly linked to theological exegesis about both Jesus and Yeshua Bin Nun and Nun means Fish in hebrew or aramean).
After the story of Moses with a man who "knows future", sourate 18 speak to us about Zul Qarnain.

When i began to write this post, i never thought that Zul Qarnein could be Issa Himself. I was quite sure that Zal qarnain was Cyrus II, the great founder of Persian empire of Archemides. However, i noticed that quranic Nassara (traduced by christians) can be zorostrians persians and that that hypothesis is of great sense in the geopolitical history of Muhammad appearing between the two super powers of that era. So if Nassara are persians then Issa went probably there and it could be a good explanation of Zul Qarnein name (Zul= who have and Qarnein=two qarns=two hornes or two era or two people).

Zul Qarnien is speaking directly with God (18-86). So Zul Qarnein is much more than a earth great leader. He was a "prophet" with the ability to speak with God. Qarn is generally used to mean people in Quran. So Zul Qarnein was probably a prophet who preached to two different people. 18-84 says that Zul Qarnein succeeded in all things in the earth. A serial winner.

Zoroastrianism, religion of persians, is a very intriguing religion. It seems even to have hearsays like talmud and Hadiths. I don't know much about it but i know that there is many similarites with islam and with "christianism". There is much to say about zorostrianism and also mithraism. There is also much to says about all the "sons of God" from a virgin in different religions and mythologies.
What is funny, is that from an historical point of view, nobody can says that Jesus is the first "son of virgin" and nobody can proove there was a son of virgin before the nephew of Moses.

Issa studied both Torah and Injeel (3-48; 5-46; 5-110; 57-274). Again, Issa can't be Jesus and Injeel can't be Gospel.
On another side, Nassara are told to read Injeel (5-47). So Injeel never disappeared.

The hypothesis Issa is the Biblical Yeshua Bin Nun and preached in Persia and delivered there the Injeel during the 40 years of exile solves all the problems.
But it is only an hypothesis and i haven't a better for now.

That is an easy point. For God there is only one religion. It is islam. Islam was the religion of Abraham, Moses Issa and All the prophets.
If you say "islam is the religion brought by Muhammad", you are probably committing a great sin.
Quran, Torah and injeel seems to be all extracted from one book, the original book, Ommou el kitab, in "the hands of God" (13-39; 43-4)

Islam is faith of Abraham (2-130 ; 2-135 ; 3-95 ; 4-125 ; 6-161; 16-123)
Abraham was Muslim (3-67). Also Isaac, Ismael, Jacob and ? ASBAT ? (2-140). Asbat are the jewish tribes (7-160).
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael (2-132) , Salomon and others (27-42), Issa and his apostles (3-52 ; 5-111).

There is even people who told Muhammad that they were Muslimouns before reading Quran (28-52 and 28-53)
Muslimous is a name given to "believers" by Abraham (22-7.

So, dear mirjamnur, never repeat again that islam came to us with Muhammad and never link it to period after Muhammad.
Only idolaters can't accept the fact that God transmitted only one religion (42-13).
Muslimouns of Torah, Injeel and Quran are from same religion. Divisions is only human partisanship.

Peace

thanks again for you answer. i have many points for ask

1. first i will read the chapter joshua
   2.We know from torah that Yeshua Bin Nun was between the 12 spies sent by moses who explored the promise land. Only two where ready to "fight". It was Yeshua and a man called Caleb ben Yefunneh. This story is confirmed by Quran (5-23)
   i know the part where i can found this story, i will read it also.
   2.your theory, that Isa and Dhul al Qarnain are the same person seems to be interesting. hmm but why Allah He didn;t speak clear from Isa and give us a puzzle?? When Isa is the friend of Allah in Sura 18 which are the same as Dhul Qarnain, why Allah not say it clear??
2. Zul Qarnien is speaking directly with God (18-86). So Zul Qarnein is much more than a earth great leader. He was a "prophet" with the ability to speak with God
   there is no other prophet then Musa who speak direct with God- God communicate never direct with people. I check the Verse, the verse mentions 'we' - again i'm not sure if the 'we' = God. I see that God is houa/ third person singular or Rabb. I don't know who speaks when we see 'we;' , the controllers? or the messengers?
   4.So if Nassara are persians then Issa went probably there and it could be a good explanation of Zul Qarnein name (Zul= who have and Qarnein=two qarns=two hornes or two era or two people).

or maybe another messenger or prophet?
5. yes, i know the 'son of a virgin' is a old story -so old as the human exists??
i believe also from the Quran, that Marjam she was married, when she became Isa- she just was a virgin, when the controller /angel came to her to tell her, that her son will be a famous prophet.
6. the islam from today seems to be a mishi mashi from many religions and teachings- you hear about the saturn death cult?? the cult of the cube?? all saturn= devil. Also in hinduismus we can found many similarities....
7.you understand me wrong; i remember an Aya from Quran, but i don't know exactly where. it speaks from the point, that the followers from muhammad earned the land from their opposers... in Sura al haschr i think we can found also a hint for this point. But i don;t found the Aya. and i'm not sure it speaks from 'muslim' its a mistake from my side.
i know very well ,that Muhammad not bring the ISLAM - the islam is not a religion.
8. but maybe it is possible, that this dhul al qarnain and this fact above point to the same? that muhammad helps Isa and his followers to go in the promised land- ?? that the nassara (follower of isa) and the follower of Muhammad as 'real' believer earned the same land??

thank you very much for your thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!!!! peace peace

[noshirk]

Salam noshirk
thanks again for you answer. i have many points for ask

1. first i will read the chapter joshua
   2.We know from torah that Yeshua Bin Nun was between the 12 spies sent by moses who explored the promise land. Only two where ready to "fight". It was Yeshua and a man called Caleb ben Yefunneh. This story is confirmed by Quran (5-23)
   i know the part where i can found this story, i will read it also.
   2.your theory, that Isa and Dhul al Qarnain are the same person seems to be interesting. hmm but why Allah He didn;t speak clear from Isa and give us a puzzle?? When Isa is the friend of Allah in Sura 18 which are the same as Dhul Qarnain, why Allah not say it clear??
2. Zul Qarnien is speaking directly with God (18-86). So Zul Qarnein is much more than a earth great leader. He was a "prophet" with the ability to speak with God
   there is no other prophet then Musa who speak direct with God- God communicate never direct with people. I check the Verse, the verse mentions 'we' - again i'm not sure if the 'we' = God. I see that God is houa/ third person singular or Rabb. I don't know who speaks when we see 'we;' , the controllers? or the messengers?
   4.So if Nassara are persians then Issa went probably there and it could be a good explanation of Zul Qarnein name (Zul= who have and Qarnein=two qarns=two hornes or two era or two people).

or maybe another messenger or prophet?
5. yes, i know the 'son of a virgin' is a old story -so old as the human exists??
i believe also from the Quran, that Marjam she was married, when she became Isa- she just was a virgin, when the controller /angel came to her to tell her, that her son will be a famous prophet.
6. the islam from today seems to be a mishi mashi from many religions and teachings- you hear about the saturn death cult?? the cult of the cube?? all saturn= devil. Also in hinduismus we can found many similarities....
7.you understand me wrong; i remember an Aya from Quran, but i don't know exactly where. it speaks from the point, that the followers from muhammad earned the land from their opposers... in Sura al haschr i think we can found also a hint for this point. But i don;t found the Aya. and i'm not sure it speaks from 'muslim' its a mistake from my side.
i know very well ,that Muhammad not bring the ISLAM - the islam is not a religion.
8. but maybe it is possible, that this dhul al qarnain and this fact above point to the same? that muhammad helps Isa and his followers to go in the promised land- ?? that the nassara (follower of isa) and the follower of Muhammad as 'real' believer earned the same land??

thank you very much for your thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!!!! peace peace

point 2
2252 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the chaytan interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the chaytan has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.
2253 That He may make what the Chaytan has cast as a test for those who have a disease in their hearts and those whose hearts are hardened. And the wicked are far away in opposition.

So we can understand hearsays as a voluntary trap for hersays believers who rejects Words of God.
Ibliss was given the mission to lie. Why should God sabotate mission of his messenger ?

From a protocolary point of view, i don't think that the great lord have to waste all his time contradicting all lies humans can invent.
Verse 3-7 says that the most important part of Quran is clear. Only who want to worship a prophet need tales about their divinity.
For worshipping God, there is absolutely no need to know were was Muhammad, Moses or who was Issa.

However, discovering the lacks in beliefs and all stupidities of hersays believers help us to understand what we don't have to do.

Point 3
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him (youkallimou), except through inspiration (Wah'y), or from behind a barrier (hijab), or by sending a messenger to inspire (wah'y) whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

I don't know from where you get information that only Moses Spokes with God.
Youkallimou is same root as Kalam wich means words. There is subtile difference with word Qala wich implies at least a meaning.
The way of speaking of God seems not to be the vocal mode. It is wah'y wich is nearer, i think, to telepathy. Some are saying that it is through angels but both qala and Wah'y are used by God to "speak" with angels.
Whatever be the real way of speaking (wah'y) or what mean behind a hijab, Quran use the same word (qala) for exemple for ibrahim (2-131) and zul qarnain (18-86).

point 8 Muhammad never met Issa. Forget that
519 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to clarify for you after a lack of messengers; so that you cannot say "No bearer of good news or warner has come to us;"....

Peace

[mirjamnur]

Salam Noshirk

point 2
2252 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the chaytan interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the chaytan has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.
2253 That He may make what the Chaytan has cast as a test for those who have a disease in their hearts and those whose hearts are hardened. And the wicked are far away in opposition.

So we can understand hearsays as a voluntary trap for hersays believers who rejects Words of God.
Ibliss was given the mission to lie. Why should God sabotate mission of his messenger ?

From a protocolary point of view, i don't think that the great lord have to waste all his time contradicting all lies humans can invent.
Verse 3-7 says that the most important part of Quran is clear. Only who want to worship a prophet need tales about their divinity.
For worshipping God, there is absolutely no need to know were was Muhammad, Moses or who was Issa.

However, discovering the lacks in beliefs and all stupidities of hersays believers help us to understand what we don't have to do.

yes, i'm agree
Point 3
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him (youkallimou), except through inspiration (Wah'y), or from behind a barrier (hijab), or by sending a messenger to inspire (wah'y) whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

I don't know from where you get information that only Moses Spokes with God.
From the Quran. God speaks only with Musa directly , i.e Musa hear the voice from God in the bush in the sacred valley

Youkallimou is same root as Kalam wich means words. There is subtile difference with word Qala wich implies at least a meaning.
The way of speaking of God seems not to be the vocal mode. It is wah'y wich is nearer, i think, to telepathy. Some are saying that it is through angels but both qala and Wah'y are used by God to "speak" with angels.

kalam= word Jesus=Kalam Allah= Word of Allah= Quran, not?

Whatever be the real way of speaking (wah'y) or what mean behind a hijab, Quran use the same word (qala) for exemple for ibrahim (2-131) and zul qarnain (18-86).

point 8 Muhammad never met Issa. Forget that i don't like to forget ;D
519 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to clarify for you after a lack of messengers; so that you cannot say "No bearer of good news or warner has come to us;"....
yeah

Peace

i read the book josua yesterday- i must say that i am shocked- to much murder to much violence- women ,children, old, animals, and all this with permission and wish from God?? -[ i become a big problem if i think that this part of the bible speaks from the same God-

The speech at the end of the book of Joshua seems to me similar to the Quran, but the beginning?
I'm sorry, for me it takes a lot of rethinking until Joshua bin can be accepted as Isa.
What do you do then with the passages of the Quran, which point to the crucifixion took place? The Quran not denies the event as such, it merely showed that Jesus is not die on the cross.
Also information on the celibacy in the Quran or of monks suggests rather that simple old legends were composed and added around the historical figure of Isa , this has happened every where in the world.
Another point what is with the coins with muhammad rasul Allah + a cross?
A hint for the fact, that Muhammad was always a title for every sincere prophet??
Peace and i wait for your answer.

[noshirk]

Salaam Mirjamnur

i read the book josua yesterday- i must say that i am shocked- to much murder to much violence- women ,children, old, animals, and all this with permission and wish from God?? -[ i become a big problem if i think that this part of the bible speaks from the same God-

The speech at the end of the book of Joshua seems to me similar to the Quran, but the beginning?
I'm sorry, for me it takes a lot of rethinking until Joshua bin can be accepted as Isa.

I don't think also that all that murder occured really. I don't believe that God stopeed the sun as Yeshau requested. I don't believe also that meriem was punished by God and made leprous for example.
However Book Of Josua is an interesting Book. Brother Pazuzu, in his last E-Book, used it to pick names of places for locating, geographically, where it happened. Old testament worth reading and it should be done carefully.
What i retain from that book is that Yeshua is, for jews, the liberator of the promised land. A great hero and great Prophet.

From quran it is clear that moses is uncle of Issa. Rejectors of this fact invented all possibles lies as brother doesnt mean brother, Aaron is another aaron, Imran is another Imran....
So when you search for a nephew of Moses, described as spiritual son, a man with name Jesus (Yeshua) appears. It is said to us that he is Bin Nun and that he accomplished all what jews are waiting from the Messiah. Funny no ?
Just for fun try type BIN and NUN here http//www.edenics.net/english-to-hebrew.aspx

Of Course, you know that i think that Isa made many others things other than killing animals

What do you do then with the passages of the Quran, which point to the crucifixion took place? The Quran not denies the event as such, it merely showed that Jesus is not die on the cross.

I suppose you mean the verse 4-157 wo says there was no killing and no crucifixion and that all was a "theater play" (shobbiha lahom).

4157 And their saying "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

it is impossible for me to accept interpretion of "crucifixion but no killing" when it is clearly said that there was NO crucifixion. I know many people can do that but i cannot.

Please note also that it is not so obvious that the word Salb , traduced by crucificion , means crucifixion.
it seems even impossible according to this verse
2071 He (Firaoun) said "Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off (iqtaa) your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will (salb) crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

it seems no obvious also that crucifixion was praticed in era of Moses

Also information on the celibacy in the Quran or of monks suggests rather that simple old legends were composed and added around the historical figure of Isa , this has happened every where in the world.

??? ??? ?

Another point what is with the coins with muhammad rasul Allah + a cross?
A hint for the fact, that Muhammad was always a title for every sincere prophet??
Peace and i wait for your answer.

??? ?

kalam= word Jesus=Kalam Allah= Word of Allah= Quran, not?

sorry but it seems that i said someting wrong. Difference between qala and kalima is not so obvious.
even arabic dictionnaries are not clear.

However, looking at all appearances of word kalima in quran (the best method of understanding a quranic word), it seems that kalima, in singular mode, means also promise/commandt.
Thus isa =kalima Allah seems to mean Isa is the promise/command of God to Mariam.
For that i will pickonly these verses
345 And the angels said "O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a Kalima from Him. His name is the Messiah, Isa, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close."
4171 O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Isa, son of Mary, was a messenger of God and a word (KALIMA) thrown to Mary and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers,....
1033 It was thus that the command (KALIMA) of your Lord came against those who were wicked, for they did not believe.
1019 The people were but one nation, then they differed. And had it not been for a previous command (KALIMA) from your Lord, the matter would have been immediately judged between them for what they differed.

whatever be the meaning of kalima, the interpertation Isa is the word of Allah cannot be the spiritual gadget as the ones that loves the prophets worshippers.
Isa was a human and the following verse is clear
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him (youkallimou), except through inspiration (Wah'y), or from behind a barrier (hijab), or by sending a messenger to inspire (wah'y) whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

only 3 methods.

Peace

[mirjamnur]

Salam noshirk

Salaam Mirjamnur

I don't think also that all that murder occured really. I don't believe that God stopeed the sun as Yeshau requested. I don't believe also that meriem was punished by God and made leprous for example.
However Book Of Josua is an interesting Book. Brother Pazuzu, in his last E-Book, used it to pick names of places for locating, geographically, where it happened. Old testament worth reading and it should be done carefully.
What i retain from that book is that Yeshua is, for jews, the liberator of the promised land. A great hero and great Prophet.

i read bible many times but never complete, for this reason to much war, violation, etc. etc. No wonder, if Zionist leaders think they can kill all others when they found it in their holy book and take it for serious... yes i think more then the half we must forget- i become doubt for all the existent 'holy' books (bible and it contents) we NEVER found anything similar in the Quran.

From quran it is clear that moses is uncle of Issa. Rejectors of this fact invented all possibles lies as brother doesnt mean brother, Aaron is another aaron, Imran is another Imran....
So when you search for a nephew of Moses, described as spiritual son, a man with name Jesus (Yeshua) appears. It is said to us that he is Bin Nun and that he accomplished all what jews are waiting from the Messiah. Funny no ?
Just for fun try type BIN and NUN here http//www.edenics.net/english-to-hebrew.aspx

thank you much for the link- it's amazing...

Of Course, you know that i think that Isa made many others things other than killing animals i hope so
I suppose you mean the verse 4-157 wo says there was no killing and no crucifixion and that all was a "theater play" (shobbiha lahom).

4157 And their saying "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

it is impossible for me to accept interpretion of "crucifixion but no killing" when it is clearly said that there was NO crucifixion. I know many people can do that but i cannot.
i read the passage again and again and i think yes, you are complete right- Quran says it clear and it seems to be an interpretation made by scholars to fit the story in the NT with the Quran. Thank you for clarification. handshake

Please note also that it is not so obvious that the word Salb , traduced by crucificion , means crucifixion.
it seems even impossible according to this verse
2071 He (Firaoun) said "Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off (iqtaa) your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will (salb) crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

it seems no obvious also that crucifixion was praticed in era of Moses

??? ??? ???? ?

my english... Quran speaks from the Christian tradition to serve God as monk (or nun) and God say that He didn't order them to do so. this fact seems to point to a historical Isa as a pious, modest and humble and without means. (or maybe i am again under control my previous learned stuff ...?? because Isa can be a hero and humble and modest... )

sorry but it seems that i said someting wrong. Difference between qala and kalima is not so obvious.
even arabic dictionnaries are not clear. no problem and i like you more again - only wise people can acceptl when they was wrong

However, looking at all appearances of word kalima in quran (the best method of understanding a quranic word), it seems that kalima, in singular mode, means also promise/commandt.
Thus isa =kalima Allah seems to mean Isa is the promise/command of God to Mariam.
For that i will pickonly these verses
345 And the angels said "O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a Kalima from Him. His name is the Messiah, Isa, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close."
4171 O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Isa, son of Mary, was a messenger of God and a word (KALIMA) thrown to Mary and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers,....
1033 It was thus that the command (KALIMA) of your Lord came against those who were wicked, for they did not believe.
1019 The people were but one nation, then they differed. And had it not been for a previous command (KALIMA) from your Lord, the matter would have been immediately judged between them for what they differed.

very nice thoughts indeed! thank you, the first time i think that i understand the Quranic term 'kalam' Allah. Thanks

whatever be the meaning of kalima, the interpertation Isa is the word of Allah cannot be the spiritual gadget as the ones that loves the prophets worshippers.
Isa was a human and the following verse is clear
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him (youkallimou), except through inspiration (Wah'y), or from behind a barrier (hijab), or by sending a messenger to inspire (wah'y) whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

only 3 methods.

Said i something different?

Sura 20 9- 14
Sura 277-9
Sura 2829-30 God speak with Musa through the fire (hijab) but direct, i.e. Musa hear the voice from God, or i understand again wrong?

Peace

peace peace

[noshirk]

Said i something different?

Sura 20 9- 14
Sura 277-9
Sura 2829-30 God speak with Musa through the fire (hijab) but direct, i.e. Musa hear the voice from God, or i understand again wrong?

Salaam mirjamnur
i have to recognize that i never thinked or read anything about this problem before your questions.
We are thinking together as students of Allah.

From my understanding, and from a logical point of view, there is only 3 Methods of Communication between an Human and his God
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him (youkallimou), except through
1 inspiration (Wah'y),
2 or from behind a barrier (hijab),
3 or by sending a messenger to inspire (wah'y) whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

so Communication beween Moses and God is one of the three.
it seems that God don't use voice canal but prefer "Wahy" canal (method 1) to it.
Method 2 seems to mean indirect method (dream, coincidence, direct wrinting on mind ?...)
Method 3 is clear

In verses you gave, by elimination only method 1 remains for Moses. Method 3 confirms that Method 1 is used for messengers of God.

Really i don't know more. I have to work more on word Wahy. it is not clear to me how it works. it seems there is something like spirit and angels there.
Peace

[noshirk]

From quran it is clear that moses is uncle of Issa. Rejectors of this fact invented all possibles lies as brother doesnt mean brother, Aaron is another aaron, Imran is another Imran....
So when you search for a nephew of Moses, described as spiritual son, a man with name Jesus (Yeshua) appears. It is said to us that he is Bin Nun and that he accomplished all what jews are waiting from the Messiah. Funny no ?
Just for fun try type BIN and NUN here http//www.edenics.net/english-to-hebrew.aspx

thank you much for the link- it's amazing...

Salaam Mirjamnur

Just for fun also, let listen to a theological jewish answer
http//www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/533436/jewish/Why-Is-Joshua-Referred-to-As-Bin-Nun.htm

and read some hebrew linguistics
http//www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Nun/nun.html
Peace

[mirjamnur]

Salam noshirk

Salaam Mirjamnur

Just for fun also, let listen to a theological jewish answer
http//www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/533436/jewish/Why-Is-Joshua-Referred-to-As-Bin-Nun.htm

and read some hebrew linguistics
http//www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Nun/nun.html
Peace

Chatam Sofer (Rabbi Moses Sofer, 1762?1839) offers another homiletic explanation. According to the Midrash5, when Gd changed Sarai?s name to Sarah6, the Hebrew letter yud, which was removed from the name (to be substituted with a hei), felt wronged. Why was it no longer part of the name of this holy woman? Gd placated the letter by promising to make amends at a future date. This was accomplished when Moses added the letter yud to Joshua?s name (Yehoshua), which was originally Hoshea. 7

In its original state, when it was the final letter of Sarai?s name, the yud did not have a vowel?as is the case with most letters which come at the end of a Hebrew word or name. Now, in order to be the yud which begins the name Joshua, it would need the sheva vowel, which is comprised of two dots vertically aligned. These two dots were ?borrowed? from the segol vowel which normally is beneath the word ben, which is three dots set up as a triangle. This leaves only one dot for the word ben. One dot is the chirik vowel, which changes the pronunciation to ?bin.?
...... ;D )

Salaam mirjamnur
i have to recognize that i never thinked or read anything about this problem before your questions.
We are thinking together as students of Allah.

From my understanding, and from a logical point of view, there is only 3 Methods of Communication between an Human and his God
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him (youkallimou), except through
1 inspiration (Wah'y),
2 or from behind a barrier (hijab),
3 or by sending a messenger to inspire (wah'y) whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

so Communication beween Moses and God is one of the three.
it seems that God don't use voice canal but prefer "Wahy" canal (method 1) to it.
Method 2 seems to mean indirect method (dream, coincidence, direct wrinting on mind ?...)
Method 3 is clear

In verses you gave, by elimination only method 1 remains for Moses. Method 3 confirms that Method 1 is used for messengers of God.

Really i don't know more. I have to work more on word Wahy. it is not clear to me how it works. it seems there is something like spirit and angels there.
Peace

from my side, i think the 3 method point to an inspiration through a messenger as Jibril- the 1 method is an inspiration as the mother of Musa received it. (dream, voice, feeling ...) but the second method for me points to Musa indirect because there is a hijab between in the case from Musa the fire.
And Allah knows the best.
for the Question of wahi - i became last week an article from a brother
http//quransmessage.com/articles/inspiration%20FM3.htm see also the links that he suggests to read.
Peace peace

[Zenith]

We know from Quran that Muhammad was near people of lot, in a place where were living people of thamud and Aad. (15-76;37-137 and 37-138; 11-81 to 11-83). History tell us (mainly for kingdom of Aad) that it is near region of Hadramout (hadhara el maout means Death has come in Arabic).
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/yemenmap2.gif
Source and more on brother Pazuzu thread here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603245.60

The town of LOT was still able to be seen on Mohammads time because the Koran tells them to look at the ruins and what God did to it and remember!!!. Saying that, the ruins of LOT's town should still be viewable to this day. If they are in the Yemen then it shouldn't be to hard to find them around the places you circled being Thamud.

[noshirk]

salaam Zenith

i don't know.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BF%C4%80d (ad people?)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Plate (tectonic)

Read posts (and E-books) of brother pazuzu, he is more qualified than me in history and archeology.

Peace

[NOMAD]

Salaam to all sorry for my absence in posts hope you all in peace in shaa Allah pr

i just dont know about mekka and medinah in Quran and also babil ..but rest of peoples/tribes/comunityes are located in hadramouth to asir areas.. Ad are sucessors of Nuh, people of thamud are after ad, then you have musa that goes to the city in litoral, median and misr.. then you gor amran of pillars and jbel xuaib, then ar-rass and aleika are mentioned to be in yemen too. just check quran from saudi complex and the footnotes there let the clear view...

the answer lies in surat of dunes.. yes Muhamed been there... when Allah says and we made cities around you as exemple is not just parable and is not far cities as cairo or jerusalem.. but close cities.. or maybe not cities some villages instead--Qariat
titles of Dhu is very comon in this areas, and the title of bait for family

OUT OF TOPIC BUT (many atual muslim tradition comes from hindu culture hair offering, circumbulating and trow of stones, venerations of saints, pilgrimage between locals, pay tribute(zakat as they trnslate) to gods .. etc ..interesting ive been reading bhagvad gita and speak about Marout-as being gods of thunder and wind belonging to Indra host.in singular menaing god of winds. so this was a legacy from hindu culture wihtin idolworshipers.. so a hindu god of winds become an angel in babylon..strange.. i defenitly conseil everyone to take time to read bhagvad gitta, its an epic sotory but the most funny is that is very close to Quran ideas for one-self and relation with 1 only Creator.(knowledge never take space nor time)
I think this is the topic within Quran im more sure than salat or any ritual act in Quran.
if we can fix history many of the rest will change and become more evident and locical..
brother pazuzu and frends works are a good exemple of new mentality and view on this subject..

Salaam still digging for more like a lemming.. O0 sun peace

[noshirk]

salaam NOMAD

i like the photo of your profile
i have read in wikipedia that Etymology of Zaratustra seems to be ?the one who is driving camels?

it seems that camels are from arabia.

Tradition travels and return.
Hope you have read my post on God and Magogs Waves. (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604222.0)

However, i might be wrong. I have now a new Hypothesis for ZUL QARNEIN.
Peace

[NOMAD]

Salaam thank you for the answer borhter i will read about gog and magog , i read something brother pazuzu post about babil being on yemen..(not sure if was him) anyway i also will read 2 ebook of brother pazuzu wich i still dindt had the time,maybe today O0
well in begining when i start to read Quran withouth hadith or anything.. i got the ideia of this events being on yemen and souroundings by the footnots of the 1st Quran i get ..after having 2version from meka i just compiled footnotes and become cristal clear.. but mekah and medinah as i mentioned still get me confused but in shaa Allah with time we will find..

We should open a thread about fauna and flora (animals and vegetals) etc in Quran and cheek origins.. frankincense,dates,camels, are surly from arabia and never in persia or jerusalem..

what i get from hadith is that is a compilation of hindu with zaroastrian and prearabic rituals a good mix of it... but in between you got an hadith that says that islam will wein when peace will reast between asir and hadramouth, and other saying that someone ask prophet where faith comes and he pointed to Yemen..(later i try find some more hadith on yemen subjects)

if i meet aladin i will wish just to make arqueology possible from medinah to eden and from asir to hadramouth.. chek everyhing... eat ) under the sands many misteries lay.. and they just see arqueology suspicious..imagine the turns it will give to world in general..so they just stay very quiet.. voodoo tempt

Thanks picture is like stand alone in light even if need to cross a desert to see tranquility..against windstorms,thunder,thirst,darkness,fear,anger,hate,etc not just in material action but spiritual quoting. fftopic laugh

SAlaam/PEACE/PAIX/SHALOM/PAZ

[noshirk]

Salaam All

i have to add two remarks.

First one comes from the second E-Book of brother Pazuzu where he spoke about the qamatians i mentionned in the first post of this thread.
in page 61 , brother Pazuzu spokes about Qaramita.
he said that they were a YEMENI Clan who were among the first who embrace islam.

If it is true, wa have a proof that people who were among the first to embrace islam, from Yemen (when Amana of God is given ?) migrated to region of old Bahrein whose capital was Hajar. We have also evidence that those people didn(t recognize Hijaz.

The second interesting remark concern the hypothesis that Nassara are the Zoroasters persians.
It is obvious that if Jesus is not Issa then Nassara cannot be whatever sect linked to jesus. Nassara are not christaions, not nestorians, not ...

From the geopgraphic point of view, Islam as preached by Muhammad rose between the roman empire at the west at persian ampire at the east.

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day....

This verse can then be usderstood as don't follow persians/nassara and jews/romans. The same meaning of course exist in other verses speaking about nassara and yahood.

but verse 2-113 is the more interesting.
2113 And the Jews say "The Nassara have no basis," and the Nassara says "The Jews have no basis," while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection.

We know that Christians and jews share at least the old testament. 2-113 is saying quite that Nassara and Jews share nothing.
of course, we know that Issa never hold "gospel" who pretend to be injeel in his Hand.

for me, it is now obvious that Nassara are persians and that all christians even the new pope are Yahood.

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Thanks for hinting me in that direction, I am going to investigate in Iran and Persepolis, enshallah.

God bless you

[noshirk]

Salaam All

4824 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior (Batni) of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.

in arabic, Jehenem (hell) is obtained by addition of word Jenna and two letters Ha and Mim

• ( &#1577
  . .
  .

i traduct meaning of ha and mim is dissolution.
so Jehennem can be understood and the hole where souls are dissolved. Dictionnary says also

( &#1576
.

I traduct Jehennem =profound depth.

Now, we know all what mean Rahm. It is the womb.
Original womb for our souls is of course Jenna.
Rahman is the one who expels from Rahm and Rahim is the forgiver who accept again the expelled souls in the rahm.

Opposite of Original Womb would be an empty venter. a hole aspiring all rejectors.
in arabic, Mekka means

( &#1576
.

I traduct Makaka means aspire something until it ends.

So BATNI mekkata can means the aspiring womb, wich means hells.

Now, we can have a new traduction for 48-24
4824 And He is the One who separate your hands from their hands and their hands for your hands while you were in the aspiring womb after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.

God prevented readers of Quran from following others arbabs (educators) than him.
it is a simple remind for followers of persians story tellers.

Good night for aspired people in pilgrimnages and prayers towards batni mekkata.

[noshirk]

salaam all

after the BATNI precedding Mecca wich mean aspire let see meaning of Bacca

so Bacca can means a crowded place and perhaps is not a name of a city.
so Abraham would have built the first temple in a crowded place and there is no Bacca on a map.

it is interesting to compare with verses 6-92,42-7 who says that Muhammad had to tansmit the message to the "mother" of villages.
Please note that after Hijra, Muhammad returned to the region from where he was expulsed and where there was his family (48-12).
in that region, it is obvious that there was two important cities (43-31)

Peace

[noshirk]

Salaam

I am asking help for Yathrib

Applying the arabic dictionnary methodology we find this

( &#1576
.
.

Tharb=Tallow on the intestines and innards (ggogle traduction)
and this

. .

Here we are told that Nabi changed name of yathrib because it was "a blaming and shaming." name ???

How it is possible that people of such a town accepted such a name before islam ?

Now, if Yathrib is also not a name of a town
3313 And a group of them said ?O people of Yathrib (greasiness/flab of Hell), there is no station for you, so come back.? And a small party of them sought permission from the prophet, saying ?Our homes are exposed,? while they were not exposed. They just wanted to flee.

it can fit but i don't know what to think. It solves the problem of why only people of Yathrib "want to flee" while 3312 is speaking about hypocrites in general ???

is it possible that no city called Yathrib never existed ?
Is it possible that neither Bacca nor Mekka nor Yathrib are cities names ?
I tried to read about this subject. Really i cannot get a conclusion.

Something is telling me that quite nothing happened in hijaz before Abbasides.
when i try follow sources, i always find a member of the team of persian storytellers behind.
Greasiness of Yathrib annoys me.

Peace

[noshirk]

http//farm4.staticflickr.com/3519/4081867943_0b04949894_d.jpg
disappeared photo of old bahrein.
Peace