Really Confused About Salah!!!
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There are several threads on salat and thought it best to address them all here in this thread.
Man of Faith, if I am not mistaken, I think in another thread you provided the details of salat (number of rakah, what to say, etc) which are not found in the Koran. It is not in the hadiths either, and so wondering where you got the details from? Are you getting it from Sunni or Shia version of salat, editing or "cleaning it up" so to speak? but where did the sunni or shia get the details? did they take the jewish prayers and edit it to suit them? This ritual of prayer by the Jews (example of ithttp//m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0aHWASyMjwg) is different than the details you or others have provided.
So again, wondering where people get the details of salat? The Sunnis claim that this is why we need the hadiths as the Koran doesn't provide the details but I haven't found the details in the hadiths either. I have spent many years looking for answers.
Few months ago, i started to questioning......are we understanding and defining salat from the Koran or have we defined it to be this ritual to be done on time in a specified way and looking for verses in the Koran to support this definition and then trying to justify this definition speaking about the benefits of this ritual? Yoga also involves standing, prostrating, bowing and has much health benefits - more than the ritual salat I would say. If i do yoga, clearing my mind of worldly affairs and connect to God - 2,3,5 times a day would that not count? And why not?
I think that there is all this confusion about salat because we are not defining and understanding salat from the Koran.
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Peace justamuslim.
Here is "one" definition from Qoran.
You can ignore the translation, and use arabic text for your own translation
I am God; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salat to remember Me.
Peace.
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Peace justamuslim,
Basically everything is supported by Quran in what I wrote, all sayings except the traditional takbir (Allahu ahkbar) can be found in it.
Amount of rakah or amount of daily prayers are from tradition I admit, but I also felt there was no reason to "reinvent the wheel", the prayer cycle in use is fine as long as you remove the idolatrous elements.
Why I do not abandon the prayers, which have been done for a long time, is simply because I cannot verify that they are false and there are Quranic verses which support a prayer ritual. For example, washing before observing prayer or prayer during war. If you could just pray with your mind such precautions should not be necessary in my opinion.
I have been philosophizing upon whether the prayer ritual makes sense, but I yet do not have any personal consensus in my head. I can simply not let myself be susceptible to follow others (which God warns about or risk wishful thinking. So far the signs are not strong enough for me to lose faith in the ancient prayer ritual.
The details for the prayer rituals are probably not utterly important as long as they are devoted to God alone. I use the default traditional muslim ritual with no better option available, it is fine for me and involves standing, bowing and prostration.
I read the opening chapter X amount of times with prostrations in between but after that I speak to God about my problems and wishes or freely praise God in my own words.
The physical prayer can simply not escape my mind, even without scriptural basis I cannot help falling down on my knees crying to the Lord if I am in distress. That is what I think all pious believers in the past also felt.
The amount of rakah or amount of prayers may been changed, but I doubt the "falling down on your knees and/or forehead" is fake.
May God bless you
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Peace justamuslim.
Here is "one" definition from Qoran.
You can ignore the translation, and use arabic text for your own translation
I am God; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salat to remember Me.
Peace.
Good logic, "salat" is not defined in the verse you quoted. If you define "salat" = ritual prayer then where do you get this definition from?
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For more than 20 years, I was more than confused. Constantly felt bad about myself, anxious or frustrated up until few months ago when I was freed of all this confusion and emotional state.
Thought of sharing my journey....(long post as it has been a long journey)
I was taught how to pray by my mom. I didn't even know what I was saying as arabic is not a language i spoke. When I came to learn what I was saying in salat, I didn't get why am I asking God to bless Abraham and Muhammed and his family over and over again every day from morning to night?
When I read the Koran, I marked the Ayats where salat was mentioned but didn't find the details. Sunni explanation then made sense which is why we need hadiths as the Koran doesn't have the details. I got a hold of bhukaris volume thinking it was a book of clear instructions on how to pray and to my surprise, it was anything but that.
I pieced together the Ayats pertaining to salat in the Koran. When I read about people before Muhammed praying, I went looking. Came to learn about how Jews pray and got a book on Jewish prayers. I came to conclude that it is 3 times a day. bowing, prostrating, bending being postures of surrender and submission in the physical sense -and so, I kept the Sunni version of salat but cleaned it up removing any mention of anyone other than God. Actually I liked this youtube video of a Jew praying sharing it with my mother both feeling that the Jewish prayer made much more sense than the Muslim prayer. I was going to take the Jewish prayer, editing that and tailoring my own salat.
In times past, I would get really frustrated forgetting at times how many rakahs I had done and doing it over and over. So my salat was 1-2 rakahs as God didn't specify. any number would be fine as what is important is not the number. Stopped wearing head scarf or special attire facing any particular direction as that was not mentioned in the Koran.
I continued to pray in Arabic as I had memorized the verses in the Koran in Arabic. last year, i decided to write on a piece of paper the translations of these ayats in english and had like a cheat sheet next to me as i had not memorized the verses in english and making a conscientious effort to use a middle tone as specified in the Koran. I would be reading the Koran which is now on my ipad thinking, communing with God so to speak and then it would be time for prayer. i would go to the bathroom to do my ablution and then stood reciting out aloud the first sura to God and doing couple of rakahs. And then going back to what i was doing before the salat which was reading the Koran. Ok that made me think.
I was attempting to do yoga as it was part of this workout few months back and it was hard to relax my mind not thinking about anything and found myself doing yoga and thinking about particular verses in the Koran. There I was standing, bending, prostrating and thinking about God. Now wasn't I technically speaking performing "salat"? I was doing yoga and thinking about salat when actually I was doing my salat in yoga except it was not in the modified Sunni version. I was standing, bending, prostrating for like an hour.
And this anxiety about "omg it is time for salat" or getting a bit panicky when realizing the time or saying my salat in hurry as i was running late to meeting, work or event, feeling bad if I missed for any number of reasons, or not being regular especially in the am as I am not an early riser, always remained every single day of my life for most of my life. Never ever a peaceful feeling.
Over the years, i have often asked given the importance of salat, why would there be so much confusion and disagreements amongst us regarding salat? one of the board members of the mosque who used to be friend of ours which changed when he learned that we are not hadith followers said that the quran aloners are followers of satan breaking the umma apart as salat is uniform amongst the Sunnis.... Salat brings and holds the community together is what he said.
If the purpose of salat as God says is to avoid sins and we are all as a community doing salat, why is the Islamic state in the state that it is in? Something is missing.
Also people combining salat or saying the middle salat at asr because they missed it or not saying salat because of exam or illness or many reasons is not in the Koran. If salat=ritual worship at fixed times and you are a neurosurgeon operating on a patient, per Koran and per this definition of salat then you need to step out of the operating table and perform your duty to God.
Years ago, I heard of former imam who left Islam saying that God would not be so confusing and so contradictory. If the Koran is clear, fully detailed why are we having these kinds of confusions and discussions about salat given the importance of it? Personally, if I was going to reject the koran, it needs to be based on clear understanding of what the author of the book said and not based on misinformation, misunderstanding, mistranslation or poor translation.
Thinking about the essence of God, concepts and message of Islam, contemplating about the verses in the Koran where salat is mentioned, understanding it in the context - of what it means and the purpose of salat, reading different views from Sunni, Shia, Submitters, Quran alone, etc and asking God for guidance, I have finally freed myself from the shackles of many years and finally have come to see that salat is NOT this ritual prayer as people have defined it to be.
Man of Faith, I think we need to take a closer look at translations of verses such as 443 and 56.
My definition of salat started out not within understanding and defining salat from the Koran but from what I was taught. I held onto to this definition and then went looking for verses in the Koran to fit and support this definition taking verses from here and there and piecing it together.
I know many here will disagree which is fine as you are responsible for your beliefs as I am of mine. Couple of months ago, engaged in some discussion regarding salat in other threads here and people were quite appalled with my posts. Well at the end, it is God we will have to answer to. Saying this ritual salat any number of times in any specific method (you could stand on one leg if you wish) does not contradict the teachings of the Koran. Nothing wrong with that. However, I would be very cautious in saying that God commanded or said so. I am not one to say God said salat=ritual prayer as people have defined or understand to be. I have to face God at the end explaining to God of all the things that I have attributed and said about Him.
In times past, I have said that God commanded a woman to wear a hijab as I once used to and I am responsible for that. It does bother me. Now unless it is crystal clear and without any doubts whatsoever and I am 100% of it, I am careful in not going around saying "God commanded or said so" as I will surely be questioned of what my tongue speaks.
Now, i keep my salat=contact with God every single day. However, not in the way that people have defined salat to be. Finally, I am free of confusion, anxiety, emotional stress and internal turmoil. My journey in searching for the truth about salat has not by any means come to an end. Actually it has only now begun trying to understand the meaning of salat without external influences and forces/pressures so to speak.
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The amount of rakah or amount of prayers may been changed, but I doubt the "falling down on your knees and/or forehead" is fake.
May God bless you
Salaam
12100 And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they fell in prostration to Him . And he said......( ط
.I traduce what dictionnary said SAJADA= Shake head (up and down), bend , and pay great attention.
Jews do that with torah. In a funny way however.and concerning knees
17107 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating ???."peace
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Salaam noshirk,
Thanks for your valuable comments, I am open to ideas on the religious prayers and never closed to ideas different from mine. I am aware of the high probability that they are severely corrupted and exposed to man-made inventions.
God bless you
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Sorry, double posts.
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Peace justamuslim.
I do not recall I defined salat= ritual prayer anywhere?
Peace.
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Salaam
12100 And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they fell in prostration to Him . And he said......( ط
.I traduce what dictionnary said SAJADA= Shake head (up and down), bend , and pay great attention.
Jews do that with torah. In a funny way however.and concerning knees
17107 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating ???."peace
Thank you @noshirk,
for me it is very interesting that you found that in the Qur'an (I marked red) similar of how the Jews do with the Torah because I think they know certain religious things better then anyone else.I wonder what would "chins prostrating" mean?
Thanx
peace
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I wonder what would "chins prostrating" mean?
Salaam God Submitter
i wonder too. prostrating is traduction put there for word Soujoud. Soujoud is the action of SAJADA.for me, the photo of your profile shows a youg man doing soujoud. Probably, if it were a video, we would have seen his chin making little mouvements up and down as sign of agrrement and obedience.
knees is always added (absent thus from Quran) when speaking about salat or soujoud.Jews have the good soujoud. However, it is too quick for me.
Peace
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because I think they (jews) know certain religious things better then anyone else.
Salaam
i think even that islam cannot be complete without torah and injeel (where is the injeel, that is the question).
for example. what are the four "Sacred Months" in wich Muslims have to make Hajj ?
i think, from the interpretation that Hajj is a kind of festival where truth seekers come to meet those who knows "words of God", that Torah give us 3.
It remains the fourth. It is probably in the injeel.Hope that you knows that Month is a traduction for Shahr wich can mean "full moon"
and hope that you know that some jews festivals are quite always in a full moon day .we have much to learn from jews and from the unknown nassara (traduced by christians by quran traductors).
Peace
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Peace,
because I think they (jews) know certain religious things better then anyone else.
i think even that islam cannot be complete without torah and injeel (where is the injeel, that is the question).
Really? why? do you think jews today are bani Israel "son of Israel", common and they are also "the chosen one"!!!!
So, who are these jews you think they know?
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Salaam God Submitter
i wonder too. prostrating is traduction put there for word Soujoud. Soujoud is the action of SAJADA.for me, the photo of your profile shows a youg man doing soujoud. Probably, if it were a video, we would have seen his chin making little mouvements up and down as sign of agrrement and obedience.
knees is always added (absent thus from Quran) when speaking about salat or soujoud.Jews have the good soujoud. However, it is too quick for me.
Peace
Thank you so much @noshirk for your encouraging words!
And thank you for your very nice words about my profile photo, I am so very glad that you say that it represents soujoud!I like your posts elsewhere as well, and almost always agree with them.
You know, a popular belief among Jews is that one can get near to God mainly by studying His Word, that by reading the Torah, as much as one can, one is ever nearer to God. I think that is salat and soujoud. Now, I do not approve of Talmud and Pharisee twisting of words and meanings, because I think every normal human being can understand the clear message of piety of the Scriptures with his own natural light, and one doesn't need intermediaries to God!
God bless
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Peace justamuslim.
I do not recall I defined salat= ritual prayer anywhere?
Peace.
I was under the impression that you are a "submitter" and from your other posts i just got the impression that you believe we should perform this ritual. If I am wrong, I do apologize.
Also when I use the pronoun "you" in the posts, it is this "generic" you which I think that I should make clearer. I find myself commenting what someone said and in the next sentence or paragraph, I am thinking of another thought.
If anyone here defines salat=ritual worship, I really would like to know how they come to this definition based on the verses good logic had quoted.
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You know, a popular belief among Jews is that one can get near to God mainly by studying His Word, that by reading the Torah, as much as one can, one is ever nearer to God. I think that is salat and soujoud. Now, I do not approve of Talmud and Pharisee twisting of words and meanings, because I think every normal human being can understand the clear message of piety of the Scriptures with his own natural light, and one doesn't need intermediaries to God!
Salaam GodSubmitter
i totally agree with your words.568 Say "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Injeel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ....
I didn't study torah very well, but i am sure that a godsubmitter can find in it the good path, even if he never reads the quran.
the more i read the quran the more i am impressioned by his words precision.
For exemple, Jews in quran are called Yahood. Yahood is from root Ha'da used many times in Quran in the sense of following the good path.Unfortunately, like for word Muslim, the word Jew has now the meaning of appartenance to a group of Humans.
I think that the more difficult thing in the good path is to define himself only relative to God and not relative to an human Group.It is only for partisans reasons that Muslims don't want to study Torah.
in quran, "Muslim to god" is an usual expression. When God asked Abraham to became Muslim, he said aslamtou li rabb el alamin (2-131).Islam is in reference to God and never as sign of membership to human group.
Insan (Human) can be understood as the one who forget (yansa) and the one who assemble in community (you'nissou)Hope that God will consider me a Muslim to him and a yahood in his path.
25 These are the ones guided by their Lord (on houdan), and these are the successful ones.Peace
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Peace All.
Let us put " Salat" to bed and get to the bottom of what everyone is making out to be a mystery?
Here is a collection of the scripture about " salat" gathered together for the brave to find its definition, meaning,...At the end let us ask some relevant questions about " Salat" for the benefit of all who want to know.
First the verses( Not in any particular order)
I have listed enough verses here to ponder the following
1-What is " Salat"?
2-Why and how can we " Akim salat"?
3- Why prepare for "Salat"?
4-When was " Salat" commanded?
5-How do we " Akim salat"?Do some of the above answer any of these questions? do they pose more questions?
May the Lord show us His true path.
Peace.
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Peace All.
Let us put " Salat" to bed and get to the bottom of what everyone is making out to be a mystery?
Here is a collection of the scripture about " salat" gathered together for the brave to find its definition, meaning,...At the end let us ask some relevant questions about " Salat" for the benefit of all who want to know.
First the verses( Not in any particular order)
I have listed enough verses here to ponder the following
1-What is " Salat"?
2-Why and how can we " Akim salat"?
3- Why prepare for "Salat"?
4-When was " Salat" commanded?
5-How do we " Akim salat"?Do some of the above answer any of these questions? do they pose more questions?
May the Lord show us His true path.
Peace.
This is great! I think there are a lot missing though. I will see if i can find a more extensive list somewhere.
I have a problem with 555... It clearly, to me, debunks my idea of zakat being charity giving. How can you pay zakat whilst making sujood? Unless sujood really is symbolic. Only Allah knows.
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Peace be upon you.
Do not fall in the trap of satan in believing that salat is not contact prayer. Salat is physical and just like good logic stated earlier, it is a direct connection with God with no intermediate.
VARIOUS ASPECTS OF PRAYER
(1) The directive to establish prayer (Numerous references - 1087; 11114; 1431; 1437; 1440; 1778; 2110; 2277; 23; 243 283; 2014; 2235; 2241; 2456; 273; 2945; 3031; 3117; 314; 3529; 477; 4238; 512; 555; 5813; 672; 7170; 7320; 83; 911; 95; 971; 985)
(2) The details of ablution (443; 56)
(3) A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ?believers? (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
(4) Garments (731). Please note that in the verse, 'masjid' is specifically mentioned. (For general clothing advice see 726; 2431; 3359)
(5) Allusion of times (4103; 11114; 1778; 2458; 3018; 2238 205 See article The Five Prayers from the Quran
(6) That prayers must be observed on time (4103)
(7) Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the ?Believers (Mu?mins) their own Qiblah (2145). God is not direction dependant, His power, knowledge and authority extends everywhere. He cannot be restricted to any direction, East or West (2142). This is also a confirmation that People of the Book will not follow the new Qiblah of the Believers, each directing prayer to their own respective Qiblahs.
(7) Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4102; 4829)
( There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (223
(9) There is a general form to prayer (2238-39). Standing position (339; 4102); Bowing down and prostrating (4102; 2226; 3824; 4829).
(10) Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2239).
(11) A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (629)
(12) Prayer and Dhikr (Remembrance) are not necessarily the same thing (6210) and DHIKR (constant remembrance) is better (2945)
(13) A warning not to abandon prayer as was the case with those before (1958-59)
(14) The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6162; 2014)
(15) Prayer involves utterance (443)
(16) The purpose to protect from sins (2945)
(17) What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4101)
(1 Even garments and mention of a 'Masjid', or a place of prayer (731)
(19) The tone of prayer (17110)
(20) There is a leader of prayer (4102)
Peace.
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peace all,
I'm afraid the phrasing "physical salat" is inappropriate, e.g. zakat is also physical, does one use the term "physical zakat"?
And I strongly recommendhttp//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Which basically means that it is illogical to think if salat is not X it can only mean Y, when an alternative, such as Z is also possible.Then http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm
