:: Gh-Fa-Ra does not mean forgive/forgiveness ::
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Salaam 357, Mohammad Noh and Bigmo,
Thank you for your replies.
@ 357,
Please check reply#13 to brother Good Logic, I think you means the same, inshaAllah.
@ Mohammad Noh!
Is there any difference between forgive and pardon? hmmAnd if we take pardon or forgive as the meaning of waoAAfu AAanna, then how can we translate 2286?
2286 ... ...
After pardoning why ask for forgiveness and what is left to ask for mercy?
@ Bigmo,
So when the Quran says that many sins God overlooks does that mean it will remain in the account without rogiveness and the how can it be cleansed?
Can you please get me some aayaat on this, let me check and get back to you on them, inshaAllah.
Tawba simply means U turn. Turning back to Allah and good deeds is Tawba.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His path pr
mmKhan -
Salam MM Khan,
Here is my understanding of 2286
God does not assign a self beyond its capacity. For it is what it has gathered and gained. ?Our Lord, don?t hold it against us if we have forgotten or blundered. Our Lord, don?t lay before us a burden like that which You have laid upon those before us. Our Lord, don?t lay upon us a burden beyond our capacity, and forgive us, pardon us and have mercy on us. You are our protector, so please support us over the group of disbeliving people.?
This is just my personal understanding, now. You may disagree with this understanding. To me that is alright. I am still learning and therefore there are too many that I do not yet know.
Cheers!
Mohammed Noh -
This is just my personal understanding, now. You may disagree with this understanding. To me that is alright. I am still learning and therefore there are too many that I do not yet know.
Salaam brother Noh!
Its OK, we will agree to disagree handshake I hope that we will reach same point through different ways, inshaAllah.
May Allah bless you and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace everyone )
I must look for the verse, as I'm not sure which verse it is, maybe you do... Unless I'm mistaken, there is a verse in the Qur'an which is translated as a command for us to forgive those who wrong us. How does your understanding fit in this verse?
Also, I agree, regarding 2286, what is traditionally translated as "forgive" and "pardon", when we look at a dictionary, the two words basically mean the same thing, and are even synonyms.
Forgive To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
Synonyms pardon - remit - excuse - condone - absolvePardon (Noun) The action of forgiving or being forgiven for an error or offense. (Verb) Forgive or excuse (a person, error, or offense).
Synonyms
noun. forgiveness - remission - amnesty - condonation
verb. forgive - excuse - remit - condone - absolveSo I can see where you are coming from with this also with 723-24.
Peace )
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Salam,
Very interesting post, brother MM Khan, and in fact I am also intrigued by the possible meanings and implications. But I trust that we have to also look at two other words, namely with Radicals AA-f-w and T-w-b. So now we have
gh-f-r waighfir lana
AA-f-w waoAAfu AAanna
t-w-b watub AAalaynaI trust we used to recite (as ?zikr?) them like this ?WaoAAfu AAanna waighfir lana watub AAalayna.?
But what do they mean? To me, they literally mean ?And allow your forgiveness on us (WaoAAfu AAanna), and give your pardon to us (waighfir lana) and restore your grace upon us (watub AAalayna).? Or, ?Forgive us, pardon us and restore your grace upon us.?
And in my personal comprehension, here are the reasons
When we fail to act appropriately (immediately, accordingly, wholly, sincerely, respectfully, submissibly, etc.) according to what we have gathered as God?s guidance, two things at least, will immediately happen
a. We are held responsible/accountable, so there is a ?athab?/punishment.
b. God stops/ceases His ?rahmat?/grace/blessings.The time of us being held responsible/accountable is represented in the phrase ?yawmi alddeen?. So to me ?athab?/punishment is right here and right now in this world. And I trust we all are very familiar with what are the kinds of ?athab?/punishment. Or else, try to start learning here http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=E*b
As a 'nastaAAeen'/recourse/way out, we have to do three things
a. Ask God for forgiveness ? to consider the act unworthy of mention or remembrance
b. Ask God for pardon ? to nullify/abolish the punishment
c. Ask God to restore His ?rahmah?/grace/blessings upon us ? so that we may continue to enjoy God?s guidance, knowledge, recovery, bounty, etc.Does anybody here share this understanding?
And as always, this is merely my personal comprehension. As such, please do not take this to be the absolute truth without counsel. Ask God about the truth, please.
Cheers!
Mohammed NohSalam all,
It seems that I have to correct myself regarding this post. But before that, please accept my apology for making the mistakes.
So now, lets look at the dictionery entries (main entry by Hans Wehr, whilst the entries by Lane was crosschecked with Wakas's Studyquran @http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
AA-f-w to be or become effaced, oblitersted, wiped out, eliminated; to efface, obliterate, wipe out, eliminate (sth.); to forgive (s.o.); to excuse, free, relieve, exempt (s.o. from sth.); to desist, abstain, refrain (from) ||| to forgive, pardon; to abound; to pass over, forgo; to grow, multiply; to obliterate all traces; to remit; to give more than what is due; to relinquish right or remit in whole or in part.
gh-f-r to forgive (s.o. sth.), grant pardon (to s.o. for sth.), remit (sth.) ||| to protect; to cover over, hide, shield, helmet; to forgive, pardon; to ask for protection or forgiveness.
Even a cursory reading of the above entries (please double check against your copy of Hans Wehr, Lane and even perhaps Roohi Balbaki's Almawrid just to be sure) will alert us on some astonishing similarities in the meanings of the two words.
But are the two words of the same meaning? Some of us hold a view that the two words have similar meanings. But as I have posted before (please look at the quoted post), the two words may have quite a similar meaning but they each has very different implications - one is forgive, while the other is pardon.
Some have asked the difference between forgive and pardon. Entries for both words at thesaurus.com are almost similar, in fact much more similar than the dictionery entries provided above.
In my quoted post above, I wrote the following
I trust we used to recite (as ?zikr?) them like this ?WaoAAfu AAanna waighfir lana watub AAalayna.?
But what do they mean? To me, they literally mean ?And allow your forgiveness on us (WaoAAfu AAanna), and give your pardon to us (waighfir lana) and restore your grace upon us (watub AAalayna).? Or, ?Forgive us, pardon us and restore your grace upon us.?
I have to correct this. The phrase should instead be read as follows
?And give your pardon to us (WaoAAfu AAanna), and allow your forgiveness on us (waighfir lana) and restore your grace upon us (watub AAalayna).? Or, ?Pardon us, forgive us and restore your grace upon us.?
AA-f-w = to pardon (to obliterate/exempt the punishment)
gh-f-r = to forgive (to forget the mistake/wrongdoing)To study the word usage in the Qur-an, please click here (http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Efw) for AA-e-w and here (http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=gfr) for gh-f-r.
Anyone could disagree with this as I will never wrong anyone with whatever opinions or understandings they have. The main objective of this forum is to share and discuss in civility, which means that everyone has a right to express their opinions or understandings respectfully.
So again, apologies for the mistakes. May God guide us all correctly.
Mohammed Noh
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Peace,
how does your understanding fit into how we are supposed to "forgive" others?
2263 Kind words and forgiveness are far
better than charity that is followed by
harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.Also, why doesn't God punish in this life and keep account clean when we commit idolatry? 4116
God does not punish in this life and keep account clean to have partners set up with Him, but He punishes in this life and keeps account clean other than that for whom He pleases.
Why not punish for such a severe sin? Are we going to be punished for it on the Day of Judgment then? So there is no hope? Or maybe that is where 1971 comes in? Will we be purified by entering the hellfire? Or maybe the verse is only referring to those who are "worst opposition to the Gracious." (1969)
5118 I think is during the Day of Judgment, right?
833 But God was not to punish them while you are with them, nor will God punish them while they continue to seek forgiveness.
Or...
833 But God was not to punish (liyuadhibahum) them while you are with them, nor will God punish them in this life and keep their account clean while they continue to seek punishment in this life and a clean account."
4237 Those who avoid gross sins and lewdness, and when they are angered, they forgive (yaghfirna).
I am not exactly sure how I started thinking of this topic again. But now I realize that I may be lying about God if I say He is the forgiver of sins. But is it lying? If God punishes us in this world and purifies us that can be considered overlooking and forgiving our sins, right? Then on the Day of Judgment, those things would not be mentioned? So it is overlooking, or forgiving, or pardoning? However, the verse I posted last (4237), I don't understand how WE are supposed to do that??
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I am not exactly sure how I started thinking of this topic again. But now I realize that I may be lying about God if I say He is the forgiver of sins. But is it lying? If God punishes us in this world and purifies us that can be considered overlooking and forgiving our sins, right? Then on the Day of Judgment, those things would not be mentioned? So it is overlooking, or forgiving, or pardoning? However, the verse I posted last (4237), I don't understand how WE are supposed to do that??
Salam glorytothegracious,
You mentioned 'the day of judgement', but to me 'yawmi alddeen' means 'the time of obligation/accountability'.
Say you told the lie, when 'your obligation' (deenaka) was to tell the truth. So God will determine 'the time of obligation/accountability' for you. Usually it starts with a realization of the lie. It will haunt you so that perhaps you may want to make amends by begging for forgiveness from God and the implicated party. But if you ignore the realization, then in 'the end' (yawmi al-akhirati) you will get the punishment 'permanently' (khalidoon) until the time of departing from this world @death.
And all these happens in this worldly life, since to me there are three phases of life
• created in the spiritual realm (ghayb = present in absence) the same time as the first man
• born into this world by assuming a physical body and given a temporary life
• back to the spiritual realm
We have feel (happy or sad, assured or fear, calmness or agitated, ease or pain, etc.) because we have the physical body that comes with the heart and the mind. In the spiritual relm, there is no feel because we do not possess the physical aspects (heart and mind) to feel.
There is of course the shielded realm (barzakh), but this is for those who, in this worldly life, have gone astray from the godly path, thus they couldn't find the return path to God. Their bodies may have rottened to dust in the graves but their 'selves' (anfus) are in limbo - neither in this worldly realm nor in the spiritual realm. They could not find the way of return to 'rahmatu allah'.
To those people currently living in this world, like you and me now, the selves of those people noted in the above paragraph remain in a passive or inactive state.
While those people who were truly in the godly path, especially true servants of God, their selves are alive or in an active state in us. Please read 2154.
But this is my personal comprehension, and it is alright by me if you choose to ignore this because this is very much a subject of metaphysics (AAilmu alghayb).
Cheers!
Mohammed Noh -
Peace,
how does your understanding fit into how we are supposed to "forgive" others?
2263 Kind words and forgiveness are far
better than charity that is followed by
harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.Peace,
This is the only place I am stuck... May Allah increase our knowledge pr
Also, why doesn't God punish in this life and keep account clean when we commit idolatry? 4116
God does not punish in this life and keep account clean to have partners set up with Him, but He punishes in this life and keeps account clean other than that for whom He pleases.
Why not punish for such a severe sin? Are we going to be punished for it on the Day of Judgment then? So there is no hope? Or maybe that is where 1971 comes in? Will we be purified by entering the hellfire? Or maybe the verse is only referring to those who are "worst opposition to the Gracious." (1969)
Almost all will be in punishment always, as many of the believers are into shirk 12106.
I understand this, because, if Allah punish people who commit shirk, then the punishment will be very severe which people may not able to handle it. Why I said that? I said that on the basis of other aayaat, like Musa, punched a man to death and he was punished for 8 or 10 years 2827. And he has to work for others 2827. He has to live out of the benefits and pleasure of palace with great difficulties 2821-24.
This is all happened because he asked his Lord for Ga-Fa-Ra and it was given 2816. So, punishment is based on level of sin.
As per 1970, it is not referring to all and 1972 clarifies that Muttaqeen will not be effected.
5118 I think is during the Day of Judgment, right?
I don't think so.. It is about past. Please note the word "Iz" in 19116. Iz refers to past.
Iz = When . For example, you can take a look at 283, 284, 293, etc..
Iza = When . For example, please take a look at 291, 56, etc..833 But God was not to punish them while you are with them, nor will God punish them while they continue to seek forgiveness.
Or...
833 But God was not to punish (liyuadhibahum) them while you are with them, nor will God punish them in this life and keep their account clean while they continue to seek punishment in this life and a clean account."
I think you are getting confuse between a3zaab and maghfirat, both of them are not same 833. A3zaab is for those who do bad deeds/sins and they are unbelievers/mushriks 834. And maghfirat is not severe as a3zaab . And Allah will not give a3zaab if someone ask for maghfirat 833.
And I also understand that bad deeds is very different than sins . Sayyiaat may include only ourselves and zunoob may include others as well.
I don't know how far I am able to explain it..
4237 Those who avoid gross sins and lewdness, and when they are angered, they forgive (yaghfirna).
Answer to 4237 is given in 4239-40, inshaAllah.
I am not exactly sure how I started thinking of this topic again. But now I realize that I may be lying about God if I say He is the forgiver of sins. But is it lying? If God punishes us in this world and purifies us that can be considered overlooking and forgiving our sins, right? Then on the Day of Judgment, those things would not be mentioned? So it is overlooking, or forgiving, or pardoning? However, the verse I posted last (4237), I don't understand how WE are supposed to do that??
Red I think those things might be mentioned on the Day of Judgement but it will be clarified by mentioning its punishment in worldly life when asked for maghfirat. This is how I understand or may be those things will not be mentioned. I don't have any aayat to support this, and waiting for Allah to clarify this.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace,
2 263. This is the only place I am stuck... May Allah increase our knowledge pr
Then High above all be Allah, the True King. And be not in haste with the Quran before its revelation is completed to you, and say "May Allah! Increase me in knowledge."
2 263 and 42 43. The Checkmate, by Allah for this discussion! Reading Quran through grammar and dictionary is obsolete, useless; all we shall do is to wait until His Communication through Revelation reaches each of us according to each one's context and situations; only then an ayat could be of Guidance, that delivers each one from his path of error.
Peace.
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The Quran gives us a marvellous tool in zeroing in on the correct meaning and that is its wide vocabulary. For those who say maghfirah is forgiveness, what then is afw (in 9/43 for example)? Those who say it's a synonym would need to ask the question - why did God use two different words to mean the same thing? If he is al-lathif al-kabeer (the subtle, the informing), was He being less al-lathif al-kabeer in either maghfirah or afw? It must be the height of absurdity in claiming Quran as 'furqan' if the furqan (literally a seperator which should separate two different sounds) is dismissed in favour of dictionaries.
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The Quran gives us a marvellous tool in zeroing in on the correct meaning and that is its wide vocabulary. For those who say maghfirah is forgiveness, what then is afw (in 9/43 for example)? Those who say it's a synonym would need to ask the question - why did God use two different words to mean the same thing? If he is al-lathif al-kabeer (the subtle, the informing), was He being less al-lathif al-kabeer in either maghfirah or afw? It must be the height of absurdity in claiming Quran as 'furqan' if the furqan (literally a seperator which should separate two different sounds) is dismissed in favour of dictionaries.
Sorry to have to put this here but as I have no other way of contacting you... I tried to reply to your PM but I can't because it says you can't receive personal messages?
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Every action is an impulse which affects all around it, as we drop a solid dense object in water and it creates (concentric) circular waves. The root g-f-r describes removing effects of bad impulse we created by our action. For example, if we insult somebody whenever we meet him that action of insulting him will still have an effect on both of us, unless he "forgave us".
We're doing bad things not just because we're bad persons in our nefs, but also due to not knowing better (way). We do our best but it comes out something very bad. His raHmet is needed in these situations when we can't help ourselves, and raHmet comes as His help to overcome an issue we're not able to solve. So, if we created a bad impulse, removing its effects is not the only thing we need, but we also need His raHmet to help us not to create the same or similar impulses again.