Do we need books to believe in God?

good_logic

Peace KingKreem.

Ya, interesting, Qoran is a unique book. Either you like or you don t? Also Qoran itself offers us the choice

Believe in it or do not believe in it. You are free and entitled to your own understanding and choice.

However there are those who believe every word of it.

Just ponder the following
We all know that there are over 1.5 billion Muslims around the world who read the same Qoran but most of them get nothing out of it or get a distorted meaning and understanding supported by corrupted scholars or terrorists or others... who are misguided because they chose to ignore God's teaching in the Qoran and go after man-made books or their own distorted opinions.

We send down in the Qoran healing and mercy for the believers. At the same time, it only increases the wickedness of the transgressors.

God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from the tiny MOSQUITO and greater. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did God mean by such an allegory?" He misleads many thereby, and guides many thereby. But He never misleads except the..,

Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.

God points out the PATHS, including the wrong ones. If He willed, He could have guided all of you.

If we made it a non-Arabic Qoran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non- Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve,they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."

When you read the Qoran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Qoran alone, they run away in aversion.

Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Qoran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.

None can grasp it (Qoran) except the sincere.

He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except God and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." ...

Yes. I believe in it. I am biased. So I do not agree with those who do not believe in it.Oh and I have solid proof that it is from the lord of the universe. I must be deluded or crazy, because I am certain GOD has sent a message (Qoran).

And finally ,if things were as clear as day( like you and others want it to be) in Qoran everybody would have believed or everybody would have disbelieved. i.e life would have not been a trial (good v bad) Think about it?

GOD bless you .
Peace.

hicham9

@hicham9

Well, if your claim is true, why does no arab ever use "drab" as "to shun" ? And why doesnt the qoran just say "b3d minhom" or something similiar so every arab from morocco to iraq would clearly understand? If this book is as clear as it claims, why such confusion ? ...not to talk about the grammar errors, uncomplete sentences and foreign words that are wrongly interpreted...

Learn the difference between MSA and QA,
then i might consider shooting sitting ducks.

Jafar

Not that they wre not visible before, but now you are showing your true colours, and with a lot of pride too. Betther that way than pretending.

Ad hominem detected...
Feel free to attack / debate on the opinion but no name calling / attack to the person.

I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).

Correct..

Within the Quran there's a verse which stated "Whose words is it" that's being said there..
And guess what.. it doesn't claim that it's the "Word of God".
"Verily it's the utterance of a noble messenger, possessor of strenght within/besides/near the possessor the owner of secured throne".
(8119)

Every book can be altered.. by anyone..

The origin of the book is definitely.. EARTH.. specifically Middle East region.
"Made in Middle East" should be stamped on the book.
And not "Made in Heaven"..

Have any of you ever wondered on WHY the belief of "God has written a book" only exist in Semitic Culture?
I explained further with examples

Book Of The Dead (Egypt)
Tanakh (Israelites / Canaan)
Gospel (Israelites / Canaan)
Quran (Arabic Peninsula / Nabateans)

On other parts of the world, nobody else has a belief that a book or set of books was WRITTEN by God (thus perfect/holy/no mistakes/ if you don't believe in it entirely you will go to hell etc..) Some culture / tradition has a belief that some Sages might be "Inspired by the Divines" to write a book. But the book per se is not perfect or holy and so does the Sage who wrote it.

runninglikezebras

Ad hominem detected...
Feel free to attack / debate on the opinion but no name calling / attack to the person.

Seems like the moderators on this forum are more sensitive towards replies going off-topic than ad hominem attacks. Huruf has a long history of personally attacking me, not once has a moderator stepped in. I've kind of gotten used to it and I would honestly doubt if I really have put my message across clearly enough if huruf did not reply with something ad hominem.

hicham9

"Verily it's the utterance of a noble messenger, possessor of strenght within/besides/near the possessor the owner of secured throne".
(8119)

Every book can be altered.. by anyone..

Yes, through misconstruction;
like you e.g. misunderstanding and thus mistranslating the highlighted part of 8119.

The origin of the book is definitely.. EARTH.. specifically Middle East region.
"Made in Middle East" should be stamped on the book.
And not "Made in Heaven"..

I don't see any "made in heaven" in my copy !

Have any of you ever wondered on WHY the belief of "God has written a book" only exist in Semitic Culture?
I explained further with examples

Book Of The Dead (Egypt)
Tanakh (Israelites / Canaan)
Gospel (Israelites / Canaan)
Quran (Arabic Peninsula / Nabateans)

On other parts of the world, nobody else has a belief that a book or set of books was WRITTEN by God (thus perfect/holy/no mistakes/ if you don't believe in it entirely you will go to hell etc..) Some culture / tradition has a belief that some Sages might be "Inspired by the Divines" to write a book. But the book per se is not perfect or holy and so does the Sage who wrote it.

I partly agree !

However, the Qurn doesn't say "if you don't believe in it you go to hell" !!! That's a misconception from your part. Your salvation depends on the weight of your deeds (78-9; 23102-103; 1016-9).

Salute

runninglikezebras

However, the Quran doesn't say "if you don't believe in it you go to hell" !!! That's a misconception from your part. Your salvation depends on the weight of your deeds.

Seriously?

But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Disbelief is enough to end up in hell. One can only wonder why an omnipotent God would express himself in such a sadist manner. Moreover one can wonder why an omnipotent God would be bothered at all by disbelievers. Not to mention how odd this entire thing is when you consider the fact that Quran claims God is controlling everyones faith and is the one causing disbelief and rejection. Seems to me a rather irrational attitude.

Jafar

However, the Quran doesn't say "if you don't believe in it you go to hell" !!! That's a misconception from your part. Your salvation depends on the weight of your deeds.

Salvation from what???

Note The entire idea of "Salvation through holy book" was also started / invented by the Semite, specifically Ancient Egyptian. In order to be "saved" from horrible torture happening after you die, on your grave, you must have / bought the "Book of the Dead". The holy book of the dead contains spells and mantras which can be used to avoid any horrible torture as thus securing your highway to heaven on your afterlife.
If you don't have or let alone believe in the "Book of the Dead" thus certainly you will suffer the eternal torture as your 'after life'... for eternity..

hicham9

Salvation from what???

From what awaits the losers.

hicham9

Shall we inform you of the most lost in deeds ?

huruf

Seems like the moderators on this forum are more sensitive towards replies going off-topic than ad hominem attacks. Huruf has a long history of personally attacking me, not once has a moderator stepped in. I've kind of gotten used to it and I would honestly doubt if I really have put my message across clearly enough if huruf did not reply with something ad hominem.

Aren't you cute. the frying pan calling the kettle black.

JavaLatte

Disbelief is enough to end up in hell. One can only wonder why an omnipotent God would express himself in such a sadist manner. Moreover one can wonder why an omnipotent God would be bothered at all by disbelievers. Not to mention how odd this entire thing is when you consider the fact that Quran claims God is controlling everyones faith and is the one causing disbelief and rejection. Seems to me a rather irrational attitude.

What kind of "god" do you expect? Perhaps you have certain expectations in this regard?

Peace.

runninglikezebras

I'm not expecting anything just pointing out an irrational attitude (the ultimate puppetmaster punishing those in the most sadist manner possible for a rejection of faith that is controlled by the puppetmaster himself).

In Quran everything is predestined and controlled by God. A rejection of faith or disbelief is due to the non-guidance by God as Quran states. This would be like a software programmer writing an application that is not working with the programmer blaming the application for not functioning. There is no rationality in it.

Quran even states God knows who will be the rejecters and who will be the believers even before you are born. So a child being born, growing up and predestined to become a disbeliever - totally beyond their own control, is ultimately punished in the hereafter for a development that is completely outside of their own control. That is a totally perverse concept. Not to mention it leads to immorality because anything evil-natured a human does is beyond their own control. It removes conscience/guilt and responsibility; anything evil-natured is the work of the devil, anything good-natured is due to Gods guidance, rendering the actions of the individual irrelevant, the only thing that matters is submission to what God has decided for you. This construct, how irrational it may be suits only one purpose total submission, it's nothing but an authoritarian tool.

Zulf

Or it's like

Jeff = the cocky student in the swimming class, who cannot yet swim
Bob = God

Bob Don't try to swim to the other side of the lake without the arm puffs as yet. You cannot do it on your own.
Jeff Sure I can. Get lost. I know all about swimming. I've seen people do it and I know the theory.
Bob You'll drown.
Jeff Sod off. I can take care of myself. I don't need you.

Jeff plunges into the water, and soon sinks.
Bob was right.

Could Bob have prevented it? Yes. He could have stopped Jeff, or he could have swam out with him to keep him afloat.
Was Jeff's sinking due to Bob? Yes. In the way that Bob let him do it.
Did Bob know what was going to happen? Yes. He knew Jeff would arrogantly go for it, and fail.

Ok, I just thought of this story, so please don't analyze it in detail to pick it apart. It's just a story trying to illustrate a point.
I totally agree that religion is ridiculous when you look at it with glasses made at the level of religion. Puppet masters and sacrifice is silly. Does this automatically mean the concept of a Divine Creative Source Foundation (or whatever you may call it) is out of the window? No. It only means that religion viewed from a materialistic point of view is silly. Even, most stories of religion may be utterly ridiculous, simply because they are twisted until they have lost their meaning.

I think we can find out more about the Divine Source when looking into sources other than religion. Actually, I cannot see any reason for taking religion as a authoritative source or monopoly on the Divine. Religion is NOT representative of the Divine!

Also, when people conclude there is no God simply because they find a certain scripture unconvincing, it's just showing that those people never had any connection to the Divine in the first place. People may have blind faith in a book, and when the book fails them, they conclude God doesn't exist. Well, then they never had faith in God. They ONLY had faith in the book, which is pretty useless imo.

I actually think we can disbelieve in God, but believe in the Divine Foundation of existence. God belongs to religion, which is pretty much fables. Again, it's not either Religion or Atheism, God or no-God. Reality is something different altogether. Religion is believing in mythology of fantastic creatures and events. Atheism is the rejection of such stories, but atheism is also the succumbing to the material world, which equals a failure to see, sense or feel anything beyond the physical input of the five sense. The mind of a religious person and an atheist works in the same way, they just have different focus. Both focus on worldly things, and both are ruled by the mind, the flesh. Perhaps it doesn't seem like this in the case of the religious person, but the stories of the religions are no less material and worldly than what atheists believe in.

Both atheism and religiousness are states of captivity. The mind is the prison.
All religions actually talk about this, but it seems no religious people recognize this.
Actually, religion doesn't teach what religion teaches.

Jafar

In Quran everything is predestined and controlled by God.

If there exist something who are all-intelligent and all-knowing and all-powerful.
Then yes He/It will know everything beyond the horizon of time and space.
The definition of such "thing" is not only described in the Quran but also other books..(holy or not holy)

A rejection of faith or disbelief is due to the non-guidance by God as Quran states.

In some other books and tradition, faith or unfaith is not important.
It's the action which are important... as the governing law mandated that every action shall resulted in proper reaction. (What goes around comes around)

This would be like a software programmer writing an application that is not working with the programmer blaming the application for not functioning. There is no rationality in it. Quran even states God knows who will be the rejecters and who will be the believers even before you are born. So a child being born, growing up and predestined to become a disbeliever - totally beyond their own control, is ultimately punished in the hereafter for a development that is completely outside of their own control. That is a totally perverse concept. Not to mention it leads to immorality because anything evil-natured a human does is beyond their own control. It removes conscience/guilt and responsibility; anything evil-natured is the work of the devil, anything good-natured is due to Gods guidance, rendering the actions of the individual irrelevant, the only thing that matters is submission to what God has decided for you.

If the programmer is blaming an application that he created, then it's clear that the programmer has lose control of the application.
I agree it's irrational and doesn't make sense.

Again the "picture" of God within Semitic culture, which started by the Ancient Egyptian, is a human-like God.
God who are jealous, get angry, sadistic, wrote books (yet again and again always blame the human who add or delete something to His books), narcissistic and have big problems with ego.

The "Judgement Day" is also 'ridiculous', why wait until certain time?
Given everything is already known even before it begin.

Space and time is also merely a creation, modern scientists just starting to realize that..

The illusion of time past, present and future all exist together
https//youtu.be/vrqmMoI0wks

And this entire 'reality' that we experiencing now is merely a 'hologram'.
https//youtu.be/16WIlRJxnrY

Thus the "illusion of Space and Time".. as it's merely a 'creation'.

And the "weighting of the deed"??
Again the idea was introduced by the Ancient Egyptian.
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Weighing_of_the_heart3.jpg

This construct, how irrational it may be suits only one purpose total submission, it's nothing but an authoritarian tool.

Bingo..
The #1 worst / unforgiving crime listed within the Book Of The Dead (which shall be punished harshly during the day of Judgement / weighting of the heart) is Stealing the King's horses..

Couldn't agree more on this verse
"And if it were from any other than God, they would have found in it many a discrepancy"
(482)

good_logic

Peace.

Is GOD making the decisions for you?

Are you going to blame other than yourself when you choose your own path/direction/philosophy/friends/likes/dislikes/actions....?

GOD created the fire. Millions are harmed by the fire either by accident or by choice or by others or... Does that mean it is GOD s fault?

You debate in your head before you take the action or you take the action without thinking or ...Is GOD holding a gun to your head and forcing you one way or the other?

OK ,go ahead keep finding excuses just because you( that includes all of us?) want to shift the blame to the Creator!!!!

May be you did not want to exist/be created at all? Did you ask to be created in the first place? You were brought here screaming and against your will and forced to be created a human? What an injustice from the Lord!!!!

GOD says otherwise. GOD says ,out of Mercy He is doing us all a favour? GOD says He does not want robots? GOD says choose freely ,but accept responsibility ( You wanted responsibility)?

Oh what a tragedy! What injustice! what a shame! Even if you were brought to this life kicking and screaming,,now you are here,deal with it! Take this chance and kill you ego.

If one is so clever ,use you cleverness to dig yourself out of pessimism and enjoy being here . Be grateful to your Creator and stop blaming other than yourself.He has created so much support ,provisions,...For you. Be thankful.

Smile ,be good,do good. Love life and all that comes with it.

GOD bless .
Peace.

Saheim

I believe there is a factory that made my car. I know my car will not last forever. I still want to read the owner's manual, though. Make sure I don't put the wrong gas/oil in it, service it when I should, etc.

As a Muslim, I believe we were ALL born knowing our Lord and having a natural tendency to submit to Him. We weren't born reading -)

I say this to my family members - if the being who created you left instructions, wouldn't you want to read them?

NOTE - the preceding is nothing but one munkeez perspective. I'm not a scholar. I don't even have a nice beard or funny hat.

Invalid777

The Reading(Quran) simply confirms what is already within us(Ruh). We were born with this information. However, you must become self-aware to have access to this. The Reading is useless if you are not self-aware. It will just lead you astray. That is your duty in this life, to become self-aware. You will then be able to connect(salat) with The Source of Knowledge, the one who created your soul and taught you.

There is no such thing as a holy book. Quran does not guide. If it did then the Muslims would have been the most righteous people in the world. Instead you see them worshipping rocks and dead people. Muslims also worship the Quran. They believe this book can heal them. Only the Creator can heal you, not a book.

These unaware souls are in coma. They're neither dead, nor alive. A book cannot fix this.

hicham9

Quran does not guide.

I beg to disagree.
Personal experience says otherwise.

If it did then the Muslims would have been the most righteous people in the world. Instead you see them worshipping rocks and dead people. Muslims also worship the Quran. They believe this book can heal them. Only the Creator can heal you, not a book.

The above logic is fallacious!

It's not the Qurn's fault that traditionalists are deaf/dumb/blind !!!

We have imparted upon thee the Writ/Prescription, with the Truth, for the People.
So, whosoever gets guided then for himself , and whosoever strays then against it. Thou art not a guardian over them.

Invalid777

I beg to disagree.
Personal experience says otherwise.

The above logic is fallacious!

The Reading(Quran) is a piece of knowledge. Knowledge does not guide, The Source of Knowledge guides.
If you're not self-aware, then this piece of knowledge will get you nowhere. You cannot use the Quran to make someone become self-aware. Only the Creator can do that. This is what it means by "Allah guides whom he wills". Religion fails to understand that.

It's not the Qurn's fault that traditionalists are deaf/dumb/blind !!!

Souls unaware of themselves are neither dead nor alive. No book or person can guide them. Only their Creator can. They are dumb, deaf and blind because their senses are useless. Self-awareness is require to make use of their senses.. A computer without a working cpu is useless. Shoving a flash drive with some data into it is going to do nothing.

reel

I'm not expecting anything just pointing out an irrational attitude (the ultimate puppetmaster punishing those in the most sadist manner possible for a rejection of faith that is controlled by the puppetmaster himself).

Hmm, what I don't understand is why you are obsessed over this irrational evil God? Do you realize how unhealthy it makes you appear?

In Quran everything is predestined and controlled by God.

I denied it for a while. I thought it was illogical. But it seems that scientists are actually studying parallel worlds.

Imagine a world where dinosaurs hadn't become extinct, Germany had won World War II and you were born in an entirely different country.
These worlds could exist today in parallel universes, which constantly interact with each other, according to a group of US and Australian researchers.
It may sound like science fiction, but the new theory could resolve some of the irregularities in quantum mechanics that have baffled scientists for centuries.
The team from Griffiths University and the University of California suggest that rather than evolving independently, nearby worlds influence one another by a subtle force of repulsion.
They claim that such an interaction could explain everything that is bizarre about how particles operate on a microscopic scale.
Quantum mechanics is notoriously difficult to fathom, exhibiting weird phenomena which seem to violate the laws of cause and effect.
'The idea of parallel universes in quantum mechanics has been around since 1957,' said Howard Wiseman, a professor in Physics at Griffith University. source http//www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2816039/Parallel-universes-exist-Multiple-versions-living-alternate-worlds-interact-theory-claims.html

A rejection of faith or disbelief is due to the non-guidance by God as Quran states. This would be like a software programmer writing an application that is not working with the programmer blaming the application for not functioning. There is no rationality in it.

Why not study the meanings of faith and disbelief?