SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"
-
No!!! it does not and I never believed your and Ayman's interpretation of 7430 Over it are NINETEEN.
I always believed that 'nineteen' had some relevance of its own. I only needed to find out, from a person of profound knowledge, exactly what that was. I've waited patiently to meet such a person and al-hamdillilaah here he is to explain it, so just have patience.
Btw do read again 7422-31 with free mind and hope and fear in your heart.Peace farida, then you should be able to articulate and explain what it is you found so profound?
Now back to discussion of this thread which the poster did not thoroughly study or post evidence.
The Oldest Qur'an Examined -- scroll to 50 which clearly 1st and last chapters are present.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUmkloE78Kw
-
Peace to you Noon. My question is, after watching the video on The Oldest Qur'aan in your studies, was that Kufic script they were showing? and does that script precede the scripts that contain the "dots" above and below the Arabic letters? Or is it just a short-hand of sorts, like the video suggested? (You display a patient nature. To be commended.) and peace
-
Dear All,Salam
If you go to Islamic awareness and then to "Sana Quran",you can see that qurans written during 1st century Hijrah do not have sura fatiha.Also go to "quran Complex"in Saudi Arabia,I mean their SITE on internet,you can see pictures of many qurans,of course older qurans,pictures show only the first page,and you will see that many qurans start with sura baqar the 2nd sura now known ti us starting with "alif lam meem".
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.Peace be upon you.
Brother, are you trying to say that surah Fatiha didn't exist at that time, and later people wrote it themselves and added inside the Qur'an? Or are you trying to say that surah Fatiha did exist, but it just wasn't the first surah?
Now if you look at 1587, the word 'ayah' doesn't exist in that verse, but most translators have still inserted the word 'verses' in their English translations.
The word 'mathani' means a repetition, or something which is oft-repeated, such as parts or narratives of the Qur'an. It is not to be confused with the word 'mathna' of the same root, which means by two's or pairs.
And the word 'saba' means 'seven', and it can also mean 'a vague number, seven or more, or a multiplicity'.
3127 If all the trees on earth were pens, and the sea ink, with seven/several seas added to it, the words of God would not be exhausted for, truly, God is Almighty and Wise.
If we note the theme of the above verse, specifically with regards the 'sea', it becomes clear that the 'seven' denotes a multiplicity if compared with a similar verse below (18109) which carries the same theme.
18109 Say "If the sea were an inkwell for the words of my Lord, then the sea would run out before the words of my Lord run out;" even if We were to bring another like it for its aid.
So from my understanding, the word 'saba' can also mean 'several'.
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.
Brother, the present Qur'an does NOT say that the Qur'an and the seven ayats are two different writings. It is your own misunderstanding.
1587 We have given you the seven oft-recited verses AND (Arabic wa) the great Quran.
The conjunction 'and/wa' does not indicate that the Qur'an and the seven oft-repeated verses are two different pieces of writing. This is a Quranic style of writing which clearly uses the conjunction 'wa' in different ways.
The 'wa' can be used to denote something separate, and it can also be used to add words to clarify something of the previous word.
For example In them will be Fruits (Arabic fakihatun), and (wa) dates and (wa) pomegranates. (556
Therefore, you can see that despite the usage of the conjunction 'wa', the dates and pomegranates don't get separated from the word 'Fruits', but the dates and pomegranates are and still remains a PART of the fruits.
So the correct translation of 1587 should be "And certainly, We have given you seven/several of the oft-repeated and the great Quran."
My conclusion The expression 'mathaniya' used here doesn't mean 'verses', but it is used to denote the Qur'an's capacity to advance and repeat it's teaching in a multifaceted manner, remaining fully consistent with itself at all times.
Peace.
-
Peace be upon you.
The word 'mathani' means a repetition, or something which is oft-repeated, such as parts or narratives of the Qur'an. It is not to be confused with the word 'mathna' of the same root, which means by two's or pairs.
And the word 'saba' means 'seven', and it can also mean 'a vague number, seven or more, or a multiplicity'.
3127 If all the trees on earth were pens, and the sea ink, with seven/several seas added to it, the words of God would not be exhausted for, truly, God is Almighty and Wise.
If we note the theme of the above verse, specifically with regards the 'sea', it becomes clear that the 'seven' denotes a multiplicity if compared with a similar verse below (18109) which carries the same theme.
18109 Say "If the sea were an inkwell for the words of my Lord, then the sea would run out before the words of my Lord run out;" even if We were to bring another like it for its aid.
So from my understanding, the word 'saba' can also mean 'several'.
Peace Scribbler
Maybe you could further elaborate where you see me confused
Now if you look at 1587, the word 'ayah' doesn't exist in that verse, but most translators have still inserted the word 'verses' in their English translations.
confused
1587 We have given you the seven oft-recited verses AND (Arabic wa) the great Quran.
.nope
So the correct translation of 1587 should be "And certainly, We have given you seven/several of the oft-repeated and the great Quran."
yes sun
salaam -
Salam Alaykum.
I'm sorry sister, I didn't get what you mean. What's your question? Can you please clearly repeat?
peace
wa alaiykum salaam
It seems you have not read this thread, for my point of view please read; Reply #10 on January 24, 2013, 074854 AM ?
BTW, I added yes to my earlier post in response to your last quote I hope that further explain's what I meant insha'allaah
Peace -
wa alaiykum salaam
It seems you have not read this thread, for my point of view please read; Reply #10 on January 24, 2013, 074854 AM ?
BTW, I added yes to my earlier post in response to your last quote I hope that further explain's what I meant insha'allaah
PeacePeace be with you.
I admit that I have very little knowledge of the Arabic language but can you give me proof that in 1587, the word 'mathani/oft-repeated' is referring to 'verses' of the Qur'an?
-
Peace to you Noon. My question is, after watching the video on The Oldest Qur'aan in your studies, was that Kufic script they were showing? and does that script precede the scripts that contain the "dots" above and below the Arabic letters? Or is it just a short-hand of sorts, like the video suggested? (You display a patient nature. To be commended.) and peace
Peace Alleycats,
Yes Kufi, dialectical markings to preserve a particular pronunciation in writing and verse numbers, etc., were introduced much later. The first 150 years early copies of Qur'an were without vowel marks and dots to distinguish between different letters which look the same when written and one needs to use context and careful cross-reference examination to distinguish correct meaning, e.g.
the male/reminder (use context)
411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share the two (feminine)
159 indeed, We We have descended alththikra/the reminder and indeed for it surely Guardianshttp//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/title/highlights3a-letter-po/cat/837
End of chapter 9129 and start chapter 101 to verses 103 and part of 104
Script Kufi Masahif
Copying date 2nd Century
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/data/837/10big.jpgThe only dots are red/green hamza markings as shown below?
Qur'an 1st/2nd centuries Chapter 60 part 4 to 8 and part of 9http//oi50.tinypic.com/20hldo0.jpg
-
Thats all based on speculation and implicit verses of the Quran. We are only responsible for what we have possesion of. God does not hold us accountable for what we do not posses. The Quran we have is what we have and that is what is relevant and not what could have been.
I second that! Very well said.
Plus I believe wholeheartedly that Allah promised to preserve the Quran. So it could either mean those old qurans were missing a page, or Allah intended it to be added later on (who knows?). Either way, like Bigmo said, it's irrelevant.
Sometimes I worry all this nit picking will tear Islam to shreds until we can no longer recognize it anymore. That's not to say you cannot research and dig deeper for further understanding and re-evaluation of Islam.
One question would be though...how significant were these old Qurans on the passing down and spread of the Quran during their time?
If they didn't play a major role (since I believe many memorized it and passed it orally as well ), then maybe that's why it isn't important that it was 'missing' Al Fatiha?
-
I second that! Very well said.
Sometimes I worry all this nit picking will tear Islam to shreds until we can no longer recognize it anymore. That's not to say you cannot research and dig deeper for further understanding and re-evaluation of Islam.Agreed
I think it's a consequence of a forum like this to find subjects to exchange ideas about.
The search for subject matter can lead to many extraneous topics being discussed.
Like television, the more channels, the better the chance of diluted entertainment.
As long as we bear in mind that these threads are meant for reflection and not to
change the fundamental aspects of Islam we should be fine.Peace
-
I second that! Very well said.
Plus I believe wholeheartedly that Allah promised to preserve the Quran. So it could either mean those old qurans were missing a page, or Allah intended it to be added later on (who knows?). Either way, like Bigmo said, it's irrelevant.
I feel much the same way. We have to be careful with any type of source that claims to be historical. In fact, hadiths would be a case in point.
Agreed
I think it's a consequence of a forum like this to find subjects to exchange ideas about.
The search for subject matter can lead to many extraneous topics being discussed.
Like television, the more channels, the better the chance of diluted entertainment.
As long as we bear in mind that these threads are meant for reflection and not to
change the fundamental aspects of Islam we should be fine.Peace
I hope you don't mind me asking, but your signature has me intrigued. I searched for it, but it doesn't appear to be a quote? Does it mean that the secret to monotheism can be found while reflecting upon nature? Or is it referring to Jannah or something else?
-
I feel much the same way. We have to be careful with any type of source that claims to be historical. In fact, hadiths would be a case in point.
Absolutely. By the way, welcome to the forum, from youtube! ). I'm Maddie M.K there, we "chatted" earlier ). I pray you enjoy your stay!
-
Absolutely. By the way, welcome to the forum, from youtube! ). I'm Maddie M.K there, we "chatted" earlier ). I pray you enjoy your stay!
Thank you for your warm welcome Maddie! I also pray your stay here is a fruitful one!
-
Does it mean that the secret to monotheism can be found while reflecting upon nature?
Salam,
Perhaps this is reflected by 221-22
This first direct address to humanity, comprising thirty eight words, perhaps encompasses entire philosophical pursuit undertaken prior to its revelation till date, and answers simplistically. Philosophy deals among other things with these questions
Character and general structure of the universe in which we live;
Is there a permanent element in the constitution of this universe?
How are we related to it? What place do we occupy in it?
What is the kind of conduct that befits the place we occupy?
Ayah 220-21
-
O you the Mankind, listen attentively;
You demonstrate subservience and allegiance to your Sustainer Lord.
He the Exalted has created you people, and those who existed before you.
This demonstrative allegiance might let you people adopt rational conduct avoiding unrestrained moves, in reverence and fear of your Creator and Sustainer Lord.
Your Sustainer Lord had, for you people, spread out the Earth in the manner of a floor/carpet;
and the Sky in the manner of an overarching canopy.
Moreover, He the Exalted descended water from the Sky.
Thereat, with this Water, He the Exalted brought out a variety of fruits-shrubs, as means of subsistence for you people.
Therefore, you people should not ascribe and declare others as the likes with reference to Allah the Exalted,
since you people have logical understanding of there being none alike
This translation is amazing... I can feel God ringing through the words. Translations don't always manage to do this. A perfect translation from Arabic to English surely would be possible; if one acquired the correct terminology one should be able to create a perfect mathematically equivalent data set transformation between Quran => English & back.
Thank you very much! A lot of clarification and a certain statement from God that he has created us from another people, meaning that we are evolved beings, this cannot be disputed. Interestingly soil = clay and salsalin kal-faqhar (5514 - Click for Corpus Word Breakdown) is the process/essence by which we originate; physically speaking, water and air resonating through soil produces the human being by means of directed evolution over billions of years. All of what we are made of came from the ground, one long chain of transmission of Ruh. You are a leaf of a 14 billion year old tree of life, perhaps even the crowning flower at the top if all goes well!
Peace jedi
-
Thank you.
Who's translation it is in green? -
O you the Mankind, listen attentively;
You demonstrate subservience and allegiance to your Sustainer Lord.
He the Exalted has created you people, and those who existed before you.
This demonstrative allegiance might let you people adopt rational conduct avoiding unrestrained moves, in reverence and fear of your Creator and Sustainer Lord.
Your Sustainer Lord had, for you people, spread out the Earth in the manner of a floor/carpet;
and the Sky in the manner of an overarching canopy.
Moreover, He the Exalted descended water from the Sky.
Thereat, with this Water, He the Exalted brought out a variety of fruits-shrubs, as means of subsistence for you people.
Therefore, you people should not ascribe and declare others as the likes with reference to Allah the Exalted,
since you people have logical understanding of there being none alike
This translation is amazing... I can feel God ringing through the words. Translations don't always manage to do this. A perfect translation from Arabic to English surely would be possible; if one acquired the correct terminology one should be able to create a perfect mathematically equivalent data set transformation between Quran => English & back.
Thank you very much! A lot of clarification and a certain statement from God that he has created us from another people, meaning that we are evolved beings, this cannot be disputed. Interestingly soil = clay and salsalin kal-faqhar (5514 - Click for Corpus Word Breakdown) is the process/essence by which we originate; physically speaking, water and air resonating through soil produces the human being by means of directed evolution over billions of years. All of what we are made of came from the ground, one long chain of transmission of Ruh. You are a leaf of a 14 billion year old tree of life, perhaps even the crowning flower at the top if all goes well!
Peace jedi
The Man History of his coming into being.
-
Salam,
Perhaps this is reflected by 221-22
This first direct address to humanity, comprising thirty eight words, perhaps encompasses entire philosophical pursuit undertaken prior to its revelation till date, and answers simplistically. Philosophy deals among other things with these questions
Character and general structure of the universe in which we live;
Is there a permanent element in the constitution of this universe?
How are we related to it? What place do we occupy in it?
What is the kind of conduct that befits the place we occupy?
Ayah 220-21
Salaam! Thanks, that's a really nice translation. They often don't flow like that. I think it all speaks to our human experience on this Earth and within this Universe and that the order we find is essential to our existence. If this order makes itself, how can it be a mindless process may be one of the points. It may also be referring to the rest of the Earth and saying it follows the laws and just gets on with it. We aren't like that, what are the laws that govern us? And if we think its possible there is a Creator, wouldn't they know, after all they created all these original laws? Sometimes, I find those who argue against Islam think this is all "basic". But, the Quran has to speak to everyone, and sometimes in looking at the most basic of things we find the answer we are looking for because maybe it is quite simple yet still profound.
-
I feel much the same way. We have to be careful with any type of source that claims to be historical. In fact, hadiths would be a case in point.
I hope you don't mind me asking, but your signature has me intrigued. I searched for it, but it doesn't appear to be a quote? Does it mean that the secret to monotheism can be found while reflecting upon nature? Or is it referring to Jannah or something else?
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
My signature is a riddle. The full riddle goes like this
The secret of monotheism can be found if you reflect on the garden of eden.
-
Peace Alleycats,
Yes Kufi, dialectical markings to preserve a particular pronunciation in writing and verse numbers, etc., were introduced much later. The first 150 years early copies of Qur'an were without vowel marks and dots to distinguish between different letters which look the same when written and one needs to use context and careful cross-reference examination to distinguish correct meaning, e.g.
the male/reminder (use context)
411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share the two (feminine)
159 indeed, We We have descended alththikra/the reminder and indeed for it surely Guardianshttp//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/title/highlights3a-letter-po/cat/837
End of chapter 9129 and start chapter 101 to verses 103 and part of 104
Script Kufi Masahif
Copying date 2nd Century
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/data/837/10big.jpgThe only dots are red/green hamza markings as shown below?
Qur'an 1st/2nd centuries Chapter 60 part 4 to 8 and part of 9http//oi50.tinypic.com/20hldo0.jpg
Salaam and thank you Noon, for taking time to respond to my query, and the beautiful snapshots! But i still have some un-clarity about early Arabic script. I have been wondering, if as you stated, the "dots" of the letters were actually not added until about 150 years later, then WHO decided which letters the Kufic represented?
And, were there NEVER the "dots", (not the 'amzah), until the 150 years later??
Just to the best of your understanding, i sure would appreciate! Thank you in advance peace