SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"
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Salam Alaykum.
I'm sorry sister, I didn't get what you mean. What's your question? Can you please clearly repeat?
peace
wa alaiykum salaam
It seems you have not read this thread, for my point of view please read; Reply #10 on January 24, 2013, 074854 AM ?
BTW, I added yes to my earlier post in response to your last quote I hope that further explain's what I meant insha'allaah
Peace -
wa alaiykum salaam
It seems you have not read this thread, for my point of view please read; Reply #10 on January 24, 2013, 074854 AM ?
BTW, I added yes to my earlier post in response to your last quote I hope that further explain's what I meant insha'allaah
PeacePeace be with you.
I admit that I have very little knowledge of the Arabic language but can you give me proof that in 1587, the word 'mathani/oft-repeated' is referring to 'verses' of the Qur'an?
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Peace to you Noon. My question is, after watching the video on The Oldest Qur'aan in your studies, was that Kufic script they were showing? and does that script precede the scripts that contain the "dots" above and below the Arabic letters? Or is it just a short-hand of sorts, like the video suggested? (You display a patient nature. To be commended.) and peace
Peace Alleycats,
Yes Kufi, dialectical markings to preserve a particular pronunciation in writing and verse numbers, etc., were introduced much later. The first 150 years early copies of Qur'an were without vowel marks and dots to distinguish between different letters which look the same when written and one needs to use context and careful cross-reference examination to distinguish correct meaning, e.g.
the male/reminder (use context)
411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share the two (feminine)
159 indeed, We We have descended alththikra/the reminder and indeed for it surely Guardianshttp//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/title/highlights3a-letter-po/cat/837
End of chapter 9129 and start chapter 101 to verses 103 and part of 104
Script Kufi Masahif
Copying date 2nd Century
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/data/837/10big.jpgThe only dots are red/green hamza markings as shown below?
Qur'an 1st/2nd centuries Chapter 60 part 4 to 8 and part of 9http//oi50.tinypic.com/20hldo0.jpg
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Thats all based on speculation and implicit verses of the Quran. We are only responsible for what we have possesion of. God does not hold us accountable for what we do not posses. The Quran we have is what we have and that is what is relevant and not what could have been.
I second that! Very well said.
Plus I believe wholeheartedly that Allah promised to preserve the Quran. So it could either mean those old qurans were missing a page, or Allah intended it to be added later on (who knows?). Either way, like Bigmo said, it's irrelevant.
Sometimes I worry all this nit picking will tear Islam to shreds until we can no longer recognize it anymore. That's not to say you cannot research and dig deeper for further understanding and re-evaluation of Islam.
One question would be though...how significant were these old Qurans on the passing down and spread of the Quran during their time?
If they didn't play a major role (since I believe many memorized it and passed it orally as well ), then maybe that's why it isn't important that it was 'missing' Al Fatiha?
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I second that! Very well said.
Sometimes I worry all this nit picking will tear Islam to shreds until we can no longer recognize it anymore. That's not to say you cannot research and dig deeper for further understanding and re-evaluation of Islam.Agreed
I think it's a consequence of a forum like this to find subjects to exchange ideas about.
The search for subject matter can lead to many extraneous topics being discussed.
Like television, the more channels, the better the chance of diluted entertainment.
As long as we bear in mind that these threads are meant for reflection and not to
change the fundamental aspects of Islam we should be fine.Peace
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I second that! Very well said.
Plus I believe wholeheartedly that Allah promised to preserve the Quran. So it could either mean those old qurans were missing a page, or Allah intended it to be added later on (who knows?). Either way, like Bigmo said, it's irrelevant.
I feel much the same way. We have to be careful with any type of source that claims to be historical. In fact, hadiths would be a case in point.
Agreed
I think it's a consequence of a forum like this to find subjects to exchange ideas about.
The search for subject matter can lead to many extraneous topics being discussed.
Like television, the more channels, the better the chance of diluted entertainment.
As long as we bear in mind that these threads are meant for reflection and not to
change the fundamental aspects of Islam we should be fine.Peace
I hope you don't mind me asking, but your signature has me intrigued. I searched for it, but it doesn't appear to be a quote? Does it mean that the secret to monotheism can be found while reflecting upon nature? Or is it referring to Jannah or something else?
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I feel much the same way. We have to be careful with any type of source that claims to be historical. In fact, hadiths would be a case in point.
Absolutely. By the way, welcome to the forum, from youtube! ). I'm Maddie M.K there, we "chatted" earlier ). I pray you enjoy your stay!
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Absolutely. By the way, welcome to the forum, from youtube! ). I'm Maddie M.K there, we "chatted" earlier ). I pray you enjoy your stay!
Thank you for your warm welcome Maddie! I also pray your stay here is a fruitful one!
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Does it mean that the secret to monotheism can be found while reflecting upon nature?
Salam,
Perhaps this is reflected by 221-22
This first direct address to humanity, comprising thirty eight words, perhaps encompasses entire philosophical pursuit undertaken prior to its revelation till date, and answers simplistically. Philosophy deals among other things with these questions
Character and general structure of the universe in which we live;
Is there a permanent element in the constitution of this universe?
How are we related to it? What place do we occupy in it?
What is the kind of conduct that befits the place we occupy?
Ayah 220-21
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O you the Mankind, listen attentively;
You demonstrate subservience and allegiance to your Sustainer Lord.
He the Exalted has created you people, and those who existed before you.
This demonstrative allegiance might let you people adopt rational conduct avoiding unrestrained moves, in reverence and fear of your Creator and Sustainer Lord.
Your Sustainer Lord had, for you people, spread out the Earth in the manner of a floor/carpet;
and the Sky in the manner of an overarching canopy.
Moreover, He the Exalted descended water from the Sky.
Thereat, with this Water, He the Exalted brought out a variety of fruits-shrubs, as means of subsistence for you people.
Therefore, you people should not ascribe and declare others as the likes with reference to Allah the Exalted,
since you people have logical understanding of there being none alike
This translation is amazing... I can feel God ringing through the words. Translations don't always manage to do this. A perfect translation from Arabic to English surely would be possible; if one acquired the correct terminology one should be able to create a perfect mathematically equivalent data set transformation between Quran => English & back.
Thank you very much! A lot of clarification and a certain statement from God that he has created us from another people, meaning that we are evolved beings, this cannot be disputed. Interestingly soil = clay and salsalin kal-faqhar (5514 - Click for Corpus Word Breakdown) is the process/essence by which we originate; physically speaking, water and air resonating through soil produces the human being by means of directed evolution over billions of years. All of what we are made of came from the ground, one long chain of transmission of Ruh. You are a leaf of a 14 billion year old tree of life, perhaps even the crowning flower at the top if all goes well!
Peace jedi
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Thank you.
Who's translation it is in green? -
O you the Mankind, listen attentively;
You demonstrate subservience and allegiance to your Sustainer Lord.
He the Exalted has created you people, and those who existed before you.
This demonstrative allegiance might let you people adopt rational conduct avoiding unrestrained moves, in reverence and fear of your Creator and Sustainer Lord.
Your Sustainer Lord had, for you people, spread out the Earth in the manner of a floor/carpet;
and the Sky in the manner of an overarching canopy.
Moreover, He the Exalted descended water from the Sky.
Thereat, with this Water, He the Exalted brought out a variety of fruits-shrubs, as means of subsistence for you people.
Therefore, you people should not ascribe and declare others as the likes with reference to Allah the Exalted,
since you people have logical understanding of there being none alike
This translation is amazing... I can feel God ringing through the words. Translations don't always manage to do this. A perfect translation from Arabic to English surely would be possible; if one acquired the correct terminology one should be able to create a perfect mathematically equivalent data set transformation between Quran => English & back.
Thank you very much! A lot of clarification and a certain statement from God that he has created us from another people, meaning that we are evolved beings, this cannot be disputed. Interestingly soil = clay and salsalin kal-faqhar (5514 - Click for Corpus Word Breakdown) is the process/essence by which we originate; physically speaking, water and air resonating through soil produces the human being by means of directed evolution over billions of years. All of what we are made of came from the ground, one long chain of transmission of Ruh. You are a leaf of a 14 billion year old tree of life, perhaps even the crowning flower at the top if all goes well!
Peace jedi
The Man History of his coming into being.
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Salam,
Perhaps this is reflected by 221-22
This first direct address to humanity, comprising thirty eight words, perhaps encompasses entire philosophical pursuit undertaken prior to its revelation till date, and answers simplistically. Philosophy deals among other things with these questions
Character and general structure of the universe in which we live;
Is there a permanent element in the constitution of this universe?
How are we related to it? What place do we occupy in it?
What is the kind of conduct that befits the place we occupy?
Ayah 220-21
Salaam! Thanks, that's a really nice translation. They often don't flow like that. I think it all speaks to our human experience on this Earth and within this Universe and that the order we find is essential to our existence. If this order makes itself, how can it be a mindless process may be one of the points. It may also be referring to the rest of the Earth and saying it follows the laws and just gets on with it. We aren't like that, what are the laws that govern us? And if we think its possible there is a Creator, wouldn't they know, after all they created all these original laws? Sometimes, I find those who argue against Islam think this is all "basic". But, the Quran has to speak to everyone, and sometimes in looking at the most basic of things we find the answer we are looking for because maybe it is quite simple yet still profound.
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I feel much the same way. We have to be careful with any type of source that claims to be historical. In fact, hadiths would be a case in point.
I hope you don't mind me asking, but your signature has me intrigued. I searched for it, but it doesn't appear to be a quote? Does it mean that the secret to monotheism can be found while reflecting upon nature? Or is it referring to Jannah or something else?
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
My signature is a riddle. The full riddle goes like this
The secret of monotheism can be found if you reflect on the garden of eden.
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Peace Alleycats,
Yes Kufi, dialectical markings to preserve a particular pronunciation in writing and verse numbers, etc., were introduced much later. The first 150 years early copies of Qur'an were without vowel marks and dots to distinguish between different letters which look the same when written and one needs to use context and careful cross-reference examination to distinguish correct meaning, e.g.
the male/reminder (use context)
411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share the two (feminine)
159 indeed, We We have descended alththikra/the reminder and indeed for it surely Guardianshttp//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/title/highlights3a-letter-po/cat/837
End of chapter 9129 and start chapter 101 to verses 103 and part of 104
Script Kufi Masahif
Copying date 2nd Century
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/data/837/10big.jpgThe only dots are red/green hamza markings as shown below?
Qur'an 1st/2nd centuries Chapter 60 part 4 to 8 and part of 9http//oi50.tinypic.com/20hldo0.jpg
Salaam and thank you Noon, for taking time to respond to my query, and the beautiful snapshots! But i still have some un-clarity about early Arabic script. I have been wondering, if as you stated, the "dots" of the letters were actually not added until about 150 years later, then WHO decided which letters the Kufic represented?
And, were there NEVER the "dots", (not the 'amzah), until the 150 years later??
Just to the best of your understanding, i sure would appreciate! Thank you in advance peace
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Salaam and thank you Noon, for taking time to respond to my query, and the beautiful snapshots! But i still have some un-clarity about early Arabic script. I have been wondering, if as you stated, the "dots" of the letters were actually not added until about 150 years later, then WHO decided which letters the Kufic represented?
And, were there NEVER the "dots", (not the 'amzah), until the 150 years later??
Just to the best of your understanding, i sure would appreciate! ) Thank you in advance peace
Salaam Alleycats, we can clearly see from the old texts there were no dots until much later in history.
Who decided which were doted/written to preserve a "certain interpretation" -- whoever had influence.
Thus in my translation took out dots/dialectical marks, use cross-reference, context for best meaning.
Peace
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Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to mention a different view, which I am increasingly leaning towards
The actual Quran was never a written document, but is and has been from the very beginning an oral tradition. It is a series of syllables forming words forming sentences conveying meaning, not a series of written letters. Any series of letters written down are to be considered nothing more than a memory aid for the recitation of the syllables that form the words, which in turn form the actual Quran. God sent down words, but no set instructions for how they should be spelled or where the dots should be, if any, I think. As long as the words remain, the Quran is preserved, and how people choose to write the words down or mass-produce them in print in order to remember them have no immediate bearing on what has actually been sent down and preserved by the grace of God.Or something like that. I could be completely wrong of course, but this is the only way I can make any real sense of what the Quran actually is...
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Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to mention a different view, which I am increasingly leaning towards
The actual Quran was never a written document, but is and has been from the very beginning an oral tradition. It is a series of syllables forming words forming sentences conveying meaning, not a series of written letters. Any series of letters written down are to be considered nothing more than a memory aid for the recitation of the syllables that form the words, which in turn form the actual Quran. God sent down words, but no set instructions for how they should be spelled or where the dots should be, if any, I think. As long as the words remain, the Quran is preserved, and how people choose to write the words down or mass-produce them in print in order to remember them have no immediate bearing on what has actually been sent down and preserved by the grace of God.
Or something like that. I could be completely wrong of course, but this is the only way I can make any real sense of what the Quran actually is...Agreed
The Quran was memorized by huffaz and was also written, although ancient societies
were primarily oral, they excelled at oral memorization which included the fatihah.Like today a popular song, is known by many.
The "Book" was revealed to Muhammad's via inspiration, into his very being,
not in physical form.Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought
down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will,
confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the
believers."People before us wanted proof of the Quran in physical form
The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them
a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for
more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning
struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped
the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We
supported Moses with profound miracles.Even if we sent down to them a physical book, written on paper, and they
touched it with their hands, those who disbelieved would have said, "This is no
more than clever magic."And as for those who think that there is something wrong or missing from the text,
think again!Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
Trust God
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
My signature is a riddle. The full riddle goes like this
The secret of monotheism can be found if you reflect on the garden of eden.
Salam, oh, I see. Thanks. Is it meant purely for reflection or is it a riddle with a particular answer?
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Salam, oh, I see. Thanks. Is it meant purely for reflection or is it a riddle with a particular answer?
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Yes my signature is a riddle/brainteaser/challenge with a particular answer.
Here's a hint "There are three major entities in the garden of eden what are they"?