All Prophets are not Messengers
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Peace Idolfree,
Why would someone who is "anti-God" print the truth and pass it to others? But if that was the case, then YES, that person is DESCRIBED as the God's messenger. But keep in mind that the second they start spreading "anti-God" messages, they lose that description. It is a relative description, just like submitter and rejecter.
I have come across many sites on the internet that have the message of The God, and with their own analysis which of course correlates to an Anti-The God, position
Why would they not be a messenger of The God anymore, afterall the fact is, they delivered the message, thus whatever is done after that which is contrary to the message does not take away from the fact that your definition still would view them as a messenger of The God, since they propagated the message.
How can being a messenger of The God be a relative position, either you delivered the message or you did not.
I would need to add something to your analogy. Part of the message that was sent by the Ambassador says "You are of the Ambassadors!". So when that person read the message, and found out that they were one of the ambassadors, they concluded that they too must help deliver the message to the people.
Your analogy was faulty on a few differnt levels, but I did the best i could with it.
(2252) These are The God's signs, We read/recite it on (to) you with the truth , and surely YOU are from the messengers
.Yes, however if we keep with the analogy and add a verse such as 2252 in the President's Message then we can deduce that the Ambassador sent is like other Ambassadors who were sent to deliver the President message in the past.
Where are these books? And if the God sent us ALL, since Noah, the same System, what is the need for different TITLES on these books?
These books are scripture which were sent to a particular nation, the reason for the "titles" are understood when you understand the progress of humanity with regard to God's system.
The Torah= the Law which was sent to the Messenger of God, Moses, for the Jewish people.
The injeel=The Good News sent to the the Messenger of God, Isa, which confirms the Torah and speaks in regard of a New Message coming that will unite the Gentiles and jews.
The Qur'an= "The reading" which was sent to the Messenger of God, Ahmad/Muhammad. Confirms the Torah, the injeel and brings a new message for all of humanity.The God descends the criterion to whomever is ready to recieve it. This messenger (whoever wrote this book that people call "quran") has come and gone, is the message delivered? Who will deliver the message to your children?
The message had been delivered to humanity by the Messenger of God, and from that point the message is spread by the" book/reading/quran" to those whose hearts are open for it.
(4034) "And Joseph had come to you from before with the evidences, so you are still continuing in doubt/suspicion from what he came to you with it, until when he perished/died, you said 'The God will never/not send from after him a messenger.' like that The God misguides whom He is (a) waster/extravagator , doubtful/suspicious."
Context helps with the above verse, The God is speaking with regard to the Children of Israel who had repeatedly denied new messengers bringing a new message from The God. Such as the case, when Messenger Isa spoke in regard of a gentile being chosen by God to deliver God's message to the world.
One who delivers a message is called a messenger. Why have you made this word to mean more than that?
Because we are discussing the definition of a Messenger of God and not just a messenger.
A messenger of God delivers the message to humanity, which inturn is spread by those who uphold the message, if they choose to spread it, theat does not make them a messenger of God, since they are only a messenger of the messenger of God.
I hope that makes more sense.
This is where we disagree, the one who recieves the information from WITHIN, is a prophet. The prophet becomes a messenger when they start spreading the message that they recieved from within. Whoever else hears themessage and passes it on is also a messenger. Only the one who takes the message and conceals it, or just does not hear the message at all is not a messenger, and that is MOST of humanity
The prophet received the info, from the Messenger of God, thus whoever the prophet spreads the message to only makes him a messenger of the messenger of God and not a messenger of the God, since he received the info from the messenger of the God.
469
And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!
Peace
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Peace be upon you QAlone,
I have come across many sites on the internet that have the message of The God, and with their own analysis which of course correlates to an Anti-The God, position
Why would they not be a messenger of The God anymore, afterall the fact is, they delivered the message, thus whatever is done after that which is contrary to the message does not take away from the fact that your definition still would view them as a messenger of The God, since they propagated the message.
How can being a messenger of The God be a relative position, either you delivered the message or you did not.
It is relative, just like being a submitter is relative, or a rejector. You are a messenger ONLY at the time you deliver the TRUTH.
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Where are these books? And if the God sent us ALL, since Noah, the same System, what is the need for different TITLES on these books?These books are scripture which were sent to a particular nation, the reason for the "titles" are understood when you understand the progress of humanity with regard to God's system.
The Torah= the Law which was sent to the Messenger of God, Moses, for the Jewish people.
The injeel=The Good News sent to the the Messenger of God, Isa, which confirms the Torah and speaks in regard of a New Message coming that will unite the Gentiles and jews.
The Qur'an= "The reading" which was sent to the Messenger of God, Ahmad/Muhammad. Confirms the Torah, the injeel and brings a new message for all of humanity.The error is found in your last sentence, the God has given the SAME system since Noah, not a NEW message.
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The God descends the criterion to whomever is ready to recieve it. This messenger (whoever wrote this book that people call "quran") has come and gone, is the message delivered? Who will deliver the message to your children?The message had been delivered to humanity by the Messenger of God, and from that point the message is spread by the" book/reading/quran" to those whose hearts are open for it.
One who spreads a mesage, DELIVERS it to those who do not yet have it, therefore they are a messenger.
(4034) "And Joseph had come to you from before with the evidences, so you are still continuing in doubt/suspicion from what he came to you with it, until when he perished/died, you said 'The God will never/not send from after him a messenger.' like that The God misguides whom He is (a) waster/extravagator , doubtful/suspicious."
Context helps with the above verse, The God is speaking with regard to the Children of Israel who had repeatedly denied new messengers bringing a new message from The God. Such as the case, when Messenger Isa spoke in regard of a gentile being chosen by God to deliver God's message to the world.
So there is no example for you in that verse? I take example from the WHOLE of the message.
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One who delivers a message is called a messenger. Why have you made this word to mean more than that?Because we are discussing the definition of a Messenger of God and not just a messenger.
A messenger of God delivers the message to humanity, which inturn is spread by those who uphold the message, if they choose to spread it, theat does not make them a messenger of God, since they are only a messenger of the messenger of God.
I hope that makes more sense.
Please think about this simple mathematical formula
Obeying the "messenger" is the SAME AS obeying the God
Delivering the messengers message is the SAME AS delivering the God's message. Please tell me if there is an error in the above calculation.Quote
This is where we disagree, the one who recieves the information from WITHIN, is a prophet. The prophet becomes a messenger when they start spreading the message that they recieved from within. Whoever else hears themessage and passes it on is also a messenger. Only the one who takes the message and conceals it, or just does not hear the message at all is not a messenger, and that is MOST of humanityThe prophet received the info, from the Messenger of God, thus whoever the prophet spreads the message to only makes him a messenger of the messenger of God and not a messenger of the God, since he received the info from the messenger of the God.
You are differntiating between messengers as the God instructs us not to do. The messagers that you are leaving out are the malaika who bring the message down to the prophet, THEN the prophet becomes a messenger and sends the message to others, the others become messengers and contiue to spread the CLEAR message.
(15 We do not descend the "malaikata" except with the truth...
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And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!Fits exactly with what I stated above D Please give me your opinion on what I have presented.
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Peace Idolfree,
t is relative, just like being a submitter is relative, or a rejector. You are a messenger ONLY at the time you deliver the TRUTH.
I beg to differ, unless of course, you have Qur'anic proof that being a Messenger of God is a relative state, as there is Qur'anic proof with regard to rejectors and submitters indeed being relative states.
The error is found in your last sentence, the God has given the SAME system since Noah, not a NEW message.
Same System does not equate with same message.
Example The children of Israel received a message from the God which contained more stricter rule regarding diet, than did all humanity with the coming of the Qur'an. Same System, however New Message.
One who spreads a mesage, DELIVERS it to those who do not yet have it, therefore they are a messenger.
Yes I agree, however they are not a Messenger of God, which in whom is sent the original message directly from The God(via Gabriel) then given to humanity.
The messenger of God, is the conduit of heavenly revelation to humanity, once this revelation is acquired by humans through the Messenger of God, it can be spread through a myraid of processes.
Actually Idol, answer this for me, Who would be the messenger of God if someone found a quran buried in their backyard?
So there is no example for you in that verse? I take example from the WHOLE of the message.
The example I received was the example I have written
The God is speaking with regard to the Children of Israel who had repeatedly denied new messengers bringing a new message from The God. Such as the case, when Messenger Isa spoke in regard of a gentile being chosen by God to deliver God's message to the world.
Obeying the "messenger" is the SAME AS obeying the God
Delivering the messengers message is the SAME AS delivering the God's message. Please tell me if there is an error in the above calculation.Perfect, I couldn't agree with you more. D
You are differntiating between messengers as the God instructs us not to do. The messagers that you are leaving out are the malaika who bring the message down to the prophet, THEN the prophet becomes a messenger and sends the message to others, the others become messengers and contiue to spread the CLEAR message.
I am not differentiating between the messengers of God(ANGELS AND CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL HUMANS), I am differentiating between the messenger of God and me( a human who benefits from Obeying the Messenger via Quran)
Take a look.
1930 Al-Huzaifi Al-Hudaifi
(The infant spoke and) said, 'I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
From the looks of it, Jesus first received the book(as a messenger) and then appointed a prophet.
469
And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!Thus Jesus the Messenger blessed Jesus the prophet with The God's Message
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Salam Alaikom.
If we read verses 83-86 of Sura 6 we read 18 names, starting with Abraham and ending with Lot. Verse 89 confirms that all these 18 were prophets of God
"These are the ones to whom we have given the Scripture wisdom and prophethood"
However we are told that that the two prophets Moses and Aaron received the same Scripture. The Statute book was given to both Moses and Aaron 37117 and 2148, therefore the total number of Scripture given to the 20 prophets is 19. This means that the Quran, besides being the last Scripture, is also the 19th Scripture delivered through the 20 prophets mentioned in the Quran.
difference between Prophets and messengers can be found in the following article
In 381 God described exactly the function of the Prophet (Nabi) and the function of the Messenger (Rasoul). Both definitions come in the middle of a very important verse that is dealing with the Messenger of the Covenant. For the sincere believer both definitions are clear and well described by the Teacher of the Quran, the Most Gracious.
"God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." 381
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall translated 381 as follows
"When Allah made (His) covenant with the PROPHETS, (He said) Behold that which I have GIVEN you of the SCRIPTURE AND KNOWLEDGE. And afterward there will come unto you a MESSENGER, CONFIRMING that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you)in this (matter)? They answered We agree. He said Then bear witness. I will be a witness with you."
Verse 381, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi." It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (242, 146, 159).
The Quranic definition of Prophet, and how all the prophets were given Scripture to deliver, is also confirmed in the following verse
"The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2213
Those who are not sufficiently familiar with the Quran tend to think that Aaron was a "Nabi" as stated in 1953, who did not receive a scripture. This claim can only be made by those who do not believe the Quran, since God ascertains in 2213 that all the prophets were sent with the Scripture. Moreover, the Quran clearly states that the Torah was given specifically "to both Moses and Aaron" (2148, 37117).
In other terms ALL THE PROPHETS are MESSENGERS, but NOT ALL the MESSENGERS are PROPHETS.
Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth. The following are some examples
"Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 379
"Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers." 689
"We granted him Isaac and Jacob, we assigned to his descendants prophethood and the scriptures, we endowed him with his due recompense in this life, and in the Hereafter he will surely be with the righteous." 2927
"We have given the Children of Israel the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood, and provided them with good provisions; we bestowed upon them more blessings than any other people." 4516
"We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants prophethood and the scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked." 5726
MESSENGER PROPHET and not, PROPHET MESSENGER
The first example for messenger prophet comes from 7157, and 7158 where God described the Prophet Muhammed as, "the messenger the prophet" and not as "the prophet the messenger," not a coincidence, . The reason is that not every messenger is a prophet and therefore the word PROPHET is used to further define and clarify the description of that messenger.
"follow the messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet) (Muhammed), whom they find written in their Torah and
Gospel . . . "7157
"..........therefore you shall believe in God and His messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet), who believes in God and His words. Follow him, that you may be guided." 7158
MOSES, THE MESSENGER PROPHET
In 1951, Moses was described by God as a messenger prophet (Rasoulan Nabyya), and NOT as a prophet messenger (Nabyyan Rasoula).
ISMAIL, THE MESSENGER PROPHET
In 1954, Ismail is described with the same words, 'Rasoulan Nabyyan'.
The reason is that, NOT every Rasoul (Messenger) is a Nabi (Prophet), BUT every Prophet (Nabi) is a Messenger (Rasoul), so God defined the word Rasoul by adding to it Nabyya. God does not make mistakes and He does not choose His words haphazard, it is meant to be in this order.
OTHER EXAMPLES are found in the Quran to clarify this description
HUMAN BEING MESSENGER
"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 1793
Notice, " a human messenger" and NOT "a messenger human (Rasoulan Bashara)."
The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).
1794, has the same expression again, human messenger (Basharan Rasoula), not (Rasoulan Bashara)
ANGEL MESSENGER
" . . . we would have sent to them from the sky an angel messenger (Malakan Rasoula)" 1795
Notice, "an angle messenger" and NOT "a messenger angel (Rasoulan Malaka). The reason is that not every angel is a messenger but every messenger FROM God's soldiers is an angel.
SAINT PROPHET
In 1941, God described Abraham as "a Siddiqan Nabyya (Saint Prophet)" and NOT as a Nabyyan Siddiqa, (Prophet Saint). The reason is that not every Siddiq (Saint ) is a prophet, while every prophet is a siddiq.
If God would say, Abraham was a Nabbyan Siddiqua (prophet saint), this would indicate that not every prophet is a saint while every saint is a prophet.
In 1956, God described the prophet Idris the same way, as a Siddiquan Nabyya (Saint prophet).
NO WHERE in the whole Quran does God use these terms different. God never described a prophet as a prophet messenger ( Nabbyan Rasoula), or prophet saint (Nabyyan Siddiqua).
'MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET'
Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse
"We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise." 2252
If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" ...... would He ? Had the two words had exactly the same meaning , then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.
The Quran is clear that EVERY PROPHET (NABI) IS A MESSENGER (RASOUL) BUT NOT EVERY MESSENGER IS A PROPHET.
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First, it explains the reason Allah commands the believers to Obey the messenger and never the prophet.
How do you claim that the prophets did not function as messengers too. And did allah say never to obey the commands of prophets and not to follow His Way ? And did allah also say such job was not entrusted with them except that the prophets were only a delivery system ?
What about this that the prophets were messengers too! An example to this is Muhammadun rasulullah. Muhammad was a PROPHET and also a Messenger. So were all the prophets before Muhammad. In the Book throughout, especialy in sura HUD, the hadiths of a few prophets' being sent to their society/brotheren, with the Message of Allah is mentioned. All of them upheld the Message as living examples for all to see so that they enter the " Life of Faith " in the Creator.
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the prophet upholds the message sent through the messenger. Upholding the message is based on human interpretation/understanding, even with regards to the prophet as is evident by the Qur'anic verses which explicitly point out the mistakes he had made through his interpretation(661-2).
Do you mean to say we shall never obey The Prophets since they cannot comprehend the Wisdom of Allah and that they they have such defects of any human such as misunderstand/misinterpret/misconceive the verses of The Book ? And as a result of this Allah feared that the people could be mislead by the prophets ? And with this serious lapse on the prophethood, do you think they could still uphold the Message ?
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Do you mean to say we shall never obey The Prophets since they cannot comprehend the Wisdom of Allah and that they they have such defects of any human such as misunderstand/misinterpret/misconceive the verses of The Book ? And as a result of this Allah feared that the people could be mislead by the prophets ? And with this serious lapse on the prophethood, do you think they could still uphold the Message ?
Peace,
Indeed I do, thats exactly what I mean and thats exactly what the Qur'an describes by pointing out the mistakes made by the prophet. The prophets understanding was limited to his own contextual understanding based on his environment at the time.
Example, verse 2130 describes to us in this day and age the Big Bang Theory, however in the prophets time verse 2130 described a general description of The God cereating the universe. Thus, since the prophet did not have the contextual understanding of the verse(as we do today), he did not understand the exact details the verse inculcated, which we are learning daily through science.
Furthermore, the prophet cannot mislead anyone, since no one is to obey the prophet, we are to obey the messenger via the Qur'an. Thus, we don't ever have to worry about the way the prophet understood verses, since we have the same verses and maybe belief in which we also can be guided by The God to our degree of understanding.
Peace
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If we read verses 83-86 of Sura 6 we read 18 names, starting with Abraham and ending with Lot. Verse 89 confirms that all these 18 were prophets of God
"These are the ones to whom we have given the Scripture wisdom and prophethood"
Peace
You have taken the above verse out of context, thus interpreted it incorrectly.
- Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it.
Notice Those whom we have given the Scripture, Law and Prophethood, If THEY...Who is they? the Jews, thus this verse is directly related to the fact that the Jews as a people were given the Scripture, Law, and Prophethood, and if they reject this favor,The God will choose to give it to another people.
I'll respond to the rest rest of your post tomorrow, Godwillingly.
Its late right now
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Peace be upon you QAlone,
I beg to differ, unless of course, you have Qur'anic proof that being a Messenger of God is a relative state, as there is Qur'anic proof with regard to rejectors and submitters indeed being relative states.
The proof is in the word itself, you can only be a messenger if you have a messege to spread.
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The error is found in your last sentence, the God has given the SAME system since Noah, not a NEW message.Same System does not equate with same message.
Example The children of Israel received a message from the God which contained more stricter rule regarding diet, than did all humanity with the coming of the Qur'an. Same System, however New Message.
Thats incorrect, how can the very same system have a different message? Here is what is said about the "children of isreal" (which does not mean JEWS)
(393) All the food was/is/became permitted to the children of Israel, except what Israel forbade on himself from before that the Torah (was) made to descend. Say "So come/bring with the Torah, so read/recite it if you were truthful."
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One who spreads a mesage, DELIVERS it to those who do not yet have it, therefore they are a messenger.Yes I agree, however they are not a Messenger of God, which in whom is sent the original message directly from The God(via Gabriel) then given to humanity.
If you are delivering the God's message, how can you not be the God's messenger? The God is the SOURCE of the message.
The messenger of God, is the conduit of heavenly revelation to humanity, once this revelation is acquired by humans through the Messenger of God, it can be spread through a myraid of processes.
Actually Idol, answer this for me, Who would be the messenger of God if someone found a quran buried in their backyard?
Whoever wrote the physical book that they found would be the messenger, as well as the malaika that descended the message to the one who wrote the bok that was found in the backyard.
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Obeying the "messenger" is the SAME AS obeying the God
Delivering the messengers message is the SAME AS delivering the God's message. Please tell me if there is an error in the above calculation.Perfect, I couldn't agree with you more.
Then we agree, whomever delivers the message is a messenger.
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You are differntiating between messengers as the God instructs us not to do. The messagers that you are leaving out are the malaika who bring the message down to the prophet, THEN the prophet becomes a messenger and sends the message to others, the others become messengers and contiue to spread the CLEAR message.I am not differentiating between the messengers of God(ANGELS AND CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL HUMANS), I am differentiating between the messenger of God and me( a human who benefits from Obeying the Messenger via Quran)
But above you just agreed that delivering the messengers message is the same as delivering the God's message, so why do you reject now?
Take a look.
1930 Al-Huzaifi Al-Hudaifi
(The infant spoke and) said, 'I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
From the looks of it, Jesus first received the book(as a messenger) and then appointed a prophet.
Of course, you are neither prophet nor messenger without the message. The only difference is that a prophet is one who intuits the message from within.
469
And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!Thus Jesus the Messenger blessed Jesus the prophet with The God's Message
Two jesus? You lost me there.
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Salam QAlone
QALone wrote
Notice Those whom we have given the Scripture, Law and Prophethood, If THEY...Who is they? the Jews, thus this verse is directly related to the fact that the Jews as a people were given the Scripture, Law, and Prophethood,
how did you come up with the conclusion that these or they means JEWS here , saying them Jews are completely out of context ?
Please read these verses again
Such was our argument, with which we supported Abraham against his people. We exalt whomever we will to higher ranks. Your Lord is Most Wise, Omniscient.
And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.
Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.
And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people.
From among their ancestors, their descendants, and their siblings, we chose many, and we guided them in a straight path.
Such is GOD's guidance, with which He guides whomever He chooses from among His servants. Had any of them fallen into idolatry, their works would have been nullified.
Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers.
to my understand these eighteen Prophets recieved scripture are well within the Quranic context between verses 83 -89 of sura 6
Please express your comment
Peace
ASM