Questions to all Quranists, about the Shahada

ayyub

I am going to say "C" for all. Muhammad was the prophet of Allah so I don't believe stating so is shirk. In fact in stating so you are just confirming that you are a follower of the message which he delivered (the Qur'an). Though the shahada is not mentioned in the Quran I don't see how it is forbidden by the Quran as there is nothing untrue in the statement. I do agree that some (not all) Quranist take things that Muslims do that are not in the Quran and advise against them because they are not mentioned in the Quran even though the Quran does not forbid it. While at the same time they criticize the Sunni and the Shia for banning things that are not mentioned in the Quran. (Again I would like to say some not all.)

I think you would be interested in reading this article http//americanunitarian.org/grantshahada.htm It's a Unitarian Christian advocating for a Unitarian Christian shahada. (The rest of the site is really informative too) As they believe in one God and Jesus as the messenger of God (and not God himself) I feel they are also submitters to God, not committing shirk and a part of our brethren.

I have also heard the argument brought forth about a Muslim being one who submits to the one God, regardless of whether they are a Jew, Christian or any other name they go by and a momin (believer) is one who believes in the message of the Quran brought by prophet Muhammad. The justification for this is linguistics based on the use of both words in the Quran. I have not done enough independent investigation to comment on this (maybe someone else here has), but there is a logic to this theory and a difference in shahada could distinguish this. (Though I am not saying it is necessarily required to. Just throwing around ideas.) For more on the Muslim/momin theory I suggest you read 'Notes on Islam' by Sir Ahmed Hussain. There is a free kindle download at Amazon http//www.amazon.com/Notes-on-Islam-ebook/dp/B0082X9Z76

Allah knows best.

Jafar

All questions C

You should ask few more questions

Is Shahada important? NO
Is Shahada matter at all? NO It doesn't matter at all.
Where did this entire idea of doing a Shahada originated from? Judaism's SHEMA.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael

Salam / Peace

Scribbler

Salamun Alaykum.

My answers

C
C
B
C
C

I'm waiting to see the Quranic references which you want to show us.

Yabba_Dabba_Doo

C
C
You are not committing shirk unless you equate Muhammad to the title of god by either deifying him.
B
Now this is something I disliked in Salat as a Hadither. You are putting Muhammad in your prayers as if you are praying to him the same way lots of Christians put the name of Jesus in their prayer when talking to god. The perfect example of this is when Christians say at the end of their prayers "In Jesus's name Amen". You are performing Anthropolatry (worship of a human beings).
Another idiotic example of this is during Tashahhud when you essentially place blessing and ask for peace upon Muhammad and Abraham....who are mortal men and dead (no offense to anyone). If you sincerely believe in their nubbu'wah then you know they are in the fields of Jannah enjoying their rightful paradise. So reciting Tashahhud is essentially almost making a person sound unsure of the nubbu'wah off Abraham and Muhammad. Appreciating the Prophet and his message is different from venerating him to an almost "godlike" status.
Do you really wish to see the Prophet end up the same way as Jesus because of how Christians twisted the message. I have talked to many non-Christians and they themselves know for a fact the deification of Jesus does not come from Abrahamic, Judaic or even "Biblical" roots. It is entirely pagan, just like Catholics and their polytheistic veneration of "Saints". Polytheism (especially int he form of anthropolatry) leaves a dirty taste in my mouth, I would rather eat razor blades and dirt yuck.
So always be sure you draw a THICK, BOLD, WELL SEEN LINE between Tawhid and shirk and be sure you do not fall into the traps of anthropolatry. Anthropolatry is a very new word but you must not be ignorant of what it means. Worship the Lord and the Lord alone, pray to God and God alone, never involve the veneration of men alongside god because sooner or later you will get confused. You do not follow "Muhammad's" words, you follow the word of God and Muhammad "was his messenger and servant". That line appears in almost every Surah of the Qur'an, please remember it and never place Muhammad in any other title.
Now just because I am not a "Muslim" in the traditional sense does not make my words invalid. I dislike polytheism with a passion and I hate anthropolatry above all else because it is "Secret Polytheism". I have told Christians and Hindus the same words as I have now with great haste and happiness.
C
C

Oh dear me, I ranted again -X

noshirk

If you were a hadithist, even questions would have included a lie.

You have actually not answered, but instead tried to avoid to answer questions 2, 3 and 4. However, your answer of question 5 gives more than enough information about you.

Furthermore, can you please tell explain me, what lie this ?question? contains

Am I a munafiq if I say the same thing as verse 631 is talking about "nashhadu innaka larasulu l-lahi"

Salaam

Am I a munafiq if I say the same thing as verse 631 is talking about "nashhadu innaka larasulu l-lahi" NO. You can simply be an honest guy deceived by scholars (false arbabs).

The kind of lie a hadithist will do, is to say that i said that it was a lie and asked me why i said that.
It is an example of question including a lie.

Other Hadithist classical question including a lie
How can we know when to do salat el dhor and el asr without hadiths ?
Response is, of course, el dhor and el asr are never mentionned in quran. Quran have not to fix when and how to make rituals invented by hadiths.

Other example of Hadithits questions
How can we know how many times we have to turn around Kaaba during Hajj without Hadiths?

I like very much Hadithist questions. They are so funny!

Peace

Emil

Do I commit shirk if I say "Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= Muhammad is the messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.
Answ C. How is that shirk when the Quran itself says Muhammed is the messenger?

Do I commit shirk if I say "Ashado inna Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= I witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.
Answ C. Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of God. So is Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc. How can it be shirk to acknowledge one or any of them?

Do I commit shirk if I say during my salat "Ashado an La illaha illallah, wahdahu la sharikala, wa ashadu inna Muhammad Rasool Allah" (= I witness that there is no deity other than God, He is alone with no partners, and I witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.
Answ C, but that depends on the reason why you feel like including a prophet in your prayers. Are you praying to God or to Muhammed? God already knows Muhammed is a prophet, you do not need to tell God this, he already knows.

Am I a munafiq if I say the same thing as verse 631 is talking about "nashhadu innaka larasulu l-lahi" (= We witness that you are (indeed) the Messenger of God) ?

A) Yes.
B) No but you must avoid saying it.
C) No.
Answ C. Yet again, why should you not accept prophet Muhammed as a messenger of God? He was one.

Please choose the most fitting option

A) Pronouncing the second Shahada* is obligatory
B) Pronouncing the second Shahada* is prohibited
C) Pronouncing the second Shahada* is neither obligatory nor prohibited
Answ B. If you believe in God and the Quran as the guidance to God's path and that is the only source you need then you should not say the second part of the Shahada. Why? Because it implies that you also believe in hadith as a divine source since the groups that do believe in hadith are the ones that invented the second part of the shahada. This is not based on Quranic evidence.
What you are doing is that you are sending a clear statement (eventhough it might not be your intention) to other muslims and the community that you belong to a certain group, namely Sunni. If you were Shia you would add some more stuff to the shahada. If you are muslim without a sect name added in front of your belief, then you should refrain from following the rituals of the sects. But there is no shirk or anything involved. If you want to be sunni or shia or hindu or christian or anything else, then by all means, say the second, third, fourth or fifth part of the shahada. You are entitled to believe in anything you want. But you would however be quite hypocritical if you follow the rituals of one sect and on the same time reject hadith.

Bender

Am I a liar when I recite the Quran and include 631 as a Quranic verse? If so, is this verse abrogated? Please explain. Don't come with stories from Sunni's or why you think there is no shahada. Explain why someone is a liar if he JUST recited the statement, because the question said just that Am I a munafiq if I said it?

Salaam mohf,

Please reread the verse

631 When almunafiqoona come to you they say We bear witness that you are the messenger of God. And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that almunafiqeena lakathiboona.

Blue part acknowledges the green part. So how can that be a lie?

I think the misunderstanding comes from 2 things.

wrong understanding of the verse by Rashad Khalifa and people took this as a correct understanding (please correct me if I am wrong about RK, I saw this understanding a long time ago on the submitters forum, so I suppose it was from him, but not sure).
misunderstanding of the word lakathiboona, which is always (or at least almost always) translated as lying.

In the purple part Allah bears witness that almunafiqeena lakathiboona and NOT about what they say in the green part.
What does "lakathiboona" means? The next verse actually explain it a bit further.

632 They have chosen their oath as a deceit, thus they repel from the path of God. Miserable indeed is what they do.
Please check all the other verses where this word is used, for example 942, 9107, 16105

If it was about what their testimony then the purple part of 631 would refer to this, but it clearly refers to almunafiqeena.

Salaam,
Bender

Bigmo

I agree with you all however I do not see this as having anything to do with hate. The Quranist persuasion is followed by people of very diverse backgrounds. Its natural that people have their influences and bring them with them. There is a lot of space for individualism in the Quranist persuasion so its natural that people will see the Quran in their own way. The Quran does not mind differences (ikhtilaf) but condemned the ikhtilaf that leads to seperation (iftiraq). What the Quran mentioned explicitly is where you will get agreement and what it mentioned implicitly is where you will find differences. There is nothing wrong with differences as long as it does not lead to seperation from one another and dividing our ourselves into sects.

What happened is that many people were given a definition of shirk that was mostly veneration and intercession. So when they see people making tawaf around the Ka'ba they see that as worshiping a stone. They see shahada that Sunni proclaim as elevating the prophet to God's level. This is because they see it as a veneration and over glorifying. However shirk is not about elevating anything to God's level as much as its about demoting God to human and earthly level. The key here is the false belief that the pagans of Mecca believed in God as the sole creator and sustainer but were still mushriks. So now they believe many Muslims can also be "practicing" shirk. In reality the pagans of Mecca and any other pagan traditions never believed in God as the sole creator or sustainer. Their creation stories tell us about their theology. Its radically different than the monotheist tradition.

P.S just like their is nothing wrong proclaiming Muhamamad is the messenger of God as a declation of faith, there is nothing wrong with proclaiming Jesus as the messenger of God or Noah. Just like there is nothing wrong with proclaiming Jesus as the way to salvation there is nothing wrong with doing the same for David or Abraham.

My two cents.

noshirk

Salaam mohf,

Please reread the verse

631 When almunafiqoona come to you they say We bear witness that you are the messenger of God. And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that almunafiqeena lakathiboona.

Blue part acknowledges the green part. So how can that be a lie?

2843 We had given Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations; as an example for the people and a guidance and a mercy, perhaps they will take heed.
2844 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness (MINA EL CHAHIDIN).

My question is simple.
Who can say, without contradiction 2844, "NO, I PERSIST AND SIGN, I ASHADU ANNA MOUSSA RASOOL ALLAH" ?

Really, How can i explain that GOD don't ask believers to make that (false) testimony.

479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any evil that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness..
4166 But God bears witness for what He has sent down to you with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness; and God is enough as a witness..
4828 He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system of truth, so that it would expose all other systems. And God is enough as a witness.

2130 And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous.
2131 When his Lord said to him "Submit, (ASLIM)" he said "I submit to the Lord of the worlds (ASLAMTOU LI RABBI EL ALAMIN)."

And my final question
if Chahada is first pillarof islam, Why GOD Forget to mention the first pillar of islam in Quran ?

and God bears witness that almunafiqeena lakathiboona.

Peace

Bender

2843 We had given Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations; as an example for the people and a guidance and a mercy, perhaps they will take heed.
2844 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness (MINA EL CHAHIDIN).

My question is simple.
Who can say, without contradiction 2844, "NO, I PERSIST AND SIGN, I ASHADU ANNA MOUSSA RASOOL ALLAH" ?

Really, How can i explain that GOD don't ask believers to make that (false) testimony.

479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any evil that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness..
4166 But God bears witness for what He has sent down to you with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness; and God is enough as a witness..
4828 He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system of truth, so that it would expose all other systems. And God is enough as a witness.

2130 And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous.
2131 When his Lord said to him "Submit, (ASLIM)" he said "I submit to the Lord of the worlds (ASLAMTOU LI RABBI EL ALAMIN)."

And my final question
if Chahada is first pillarof islam, Why GOD Forget to mention the first pillar of islam in Quran ?

and God bears witness that almunafiqeena lakathiboona.

Peace

Salaam noshirk,

your first question The ayaat is not talking about Musa.

your final question I was replying to the part I quoted from mohf. Not to "the first pillar" of islam. If you want to read my understanding on it then please read my posts in this thread HERE

Salaam,
Bender

Joe_Betik

Salam all,

I must say that this is merely my personal comprehension, and as such no reader is obliged to accept it to be the truth for him/her. I quote 2104 which to me means You people who have believed, do not say, ?Heed us!? But say, ?Consider us when you listen.? And for disbelievers, it is a chastisement of pain.

To me, there should be no issue regarding 'shahadah.'

But why? 'Ashhadu' comes from sh-h-d, which means to witness (sth.), be witness (of sth.); to experience personally (sth.), see with one?s own eyes (s.o. in a situation); to be present (at), attend (a celebration); to be present at the public appearance of s.o.; to see (sth.); - (shahadah) to testify, bear witness; to attest, confirm, certify (sth., that), testify, give testimony, give evidence (against s.o., to or about sth., in s.o.?s favor); to sign as a witness, to witness (a document); to acknowledge, adjudge (to s.o., sth.).

So it does not necessarily imply only one thing, i.e. to bear witness or to testify.

And so, in this specific case, it may imply an acknowledgment, acceptence or a confession, and in this particular case, strictly to God.

Please browse here for 'acknowledgment' http//thesaurus.com/browse/acknowledgment

But please hold a minute. To me, 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' does not refer to a particular or definite person. Rather, 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' and also the Q (Qur-an) means the 'praised; commendable, laudable', and it refers to the 'spirit of God' within us human beings.

Please read on the creation of 'adam' such as in verse 1529 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=29) and the factual account on 'muhammad' in verse 3340 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=33&verse=40).

Just a short note on 'khatam' 'Khatam' is 'ring'. But not literally. Rather, it is an allegory. To illustrate this, look at the set of keys you have in your pocket or purse. The keys are held together by the ring of your keychain. 'Muhammad' is likened to that 'ring' that holds together the many keys (alnnabiyyeen). But what does this imply? It implies that 'muhammad' (remember that it refers to 'the spirit of God' mentioned earlier?) delivers the message of God to all 'nabiyyeen', and as such all 'nabiyyeen' deliver the same one message. All 'nabiyyeen' are taught by the same 'rasool' within themselves, and in some cases some 'nabiyyeen' were elevated in status to become 'rusool'. It is all about becoming - from the status of an average person to the status of a 'nabiy' and later on to the status of a 'rasool'. This is a subject of metaphysics that I tried to explain in simple language strictly for the general readers/non-students of metaphysics. (Please forgive me if I failed to do it. D )

And so to say the 'shahadah' is to express an acknowledgment "I acknowledge that it is not God other than God and I acknowledge that 'the one worthy of praise' (muhammad/the spirit of God) is the messenger (rasool) of God."

As I have mentioned, the spirit of God is within each and everyone of us, thereby making us all potential 'nabiyyun' (people who seclude themselves from others to be close to God in order to receive God's message).

Expand this idea further and you will after a while, insha allah, grasp the many mind-boggling ideas you came across in the Q, for example; there is a 'rasool' in every 'ummah' or that God's message to you will be delivered in your very own language.

And to end this post, I quote verse 4733. You may want to read here http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=33 for some translations. Indeed, I don't suppose that God has commanded upon us to commit 'shirk'.

But I must also say that this personal comprehension on 'shahadah' differs very much from what you have been told or you have read before. As I have frequently mentioned in this forum, please ask God for all questions that you might have, but be respectful and be patient with God. My questions regarding 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' in 1997 was answered only in 2004. Yes, there was a 7-year wait for me, but not necessarily the same for some other people that I have met. And by having a different comprehension does not give me any right nor privilege to wrong other people or wrong their understandings. Only God is our judge.

Read you can. Understand you may. But please do not accept this to be the truth without a prior counsel from God.

May God guide us all correctly.

Mohammed Noh

Bender

Salam all,

But please hold a minute. To me, 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' does not refer to a particular or definite person. Rather, 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' and also the Q (Qur-an) means the 'praised; commendable, laudable', and it refers to the 'spirit of God' within us human beings.

Salaam Mohammed Noh,

First of all I always liked your posts, I am happy that you are posting again on this forum handshake

RED As far as I know nowhere in The Quran "RUH" (if that is what you meant with spirit) is linked with muhammed "the praised".
And as far as my understanding reaches, your understanding does not hold because of
3144
Please pay attention to the blue part. Who is the target audience of the blue part? Do you think that is possible if you look at the red part?

And so to say the 'shahadah' is to express an acknowledgment "I acknowledge that it is not God other than God and I acknowledge that 'the one worthy of praise' (muhammad/the spirit of God) is the messenger (rasool) of God."

May God guide us all correctly.

Mohammed Noh

You can't acknowledge that there is a God other than God as per 619
619 Salaam,

Salaam,
Bender

Aamer

So what is the proper way to give the Adhan (call for prayer)? Say everything the same but just leave out "Ashadu Anna Muhammad Rasool Allah"? That's what I've been doing recently but not sure what others do.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

If one feels the need for a Shahada

2130 And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous.

2131 When his Lord said to him "Submit," he said "I submit to the Lord of the worlds."

There are some excellent articles on this topic on the main page.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Jafar

So what is the proper way to give the Adhan (call for prayer)? Say everything the same but just leave out "Ashadu Anna Muhammad Rasool Allah"? That's what I've been doing recently but not sure what others do.

Blow up the horn
Ring the bell
Sound the fire alarm
Saying "Let us pray now"..
etc..

noshirk

Salam all,

I must say that this is merely my personal comprehension, and as such no reader is obliged to accept it to be the truth for him/her. I quote 2104 which to me means You people who have believed, do not say, ?Heed us!? But say, ?Consider us when you listen.? And for disbelievers, it is a chastisement of pain.

To me, there should be no issue regarding 'shahadah.'

But why? 'Ashhadu' comes from sh-h-d, which means to witness (sth.), be witness (of sth.); to experience personally (sth.), see with one?s own eyes (s.o. in a situation); to be present (at), attend (a celebration); to be present at the public appearance of s.o.; to see (sth.); - (shahadah) to testify, bear witness; to attest, confirm, certify (sth., that), testify, give testimony, give evidence (against s.o., to or about sth., in s.o.?s favor); to sign as a witness, to witness (a document); to acknowledge, adjudge (to s.o., sth.).

So it does not necessarily imply only one thing, i.e. to bear witness or to testify.

And so, in this specific case, it may imply an acknowledgment, acceptence or a confession, and in this particular case, strictly to God.

Please browse here for 'acknowledgment' http//thesaurus.com/browse/acknowledgment

But please hold a minute. To me, 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' does not refer to a particular or definite person. Rather, 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' and also the Q (Qur-an) means the 'praised; commendable, laudable', and it refers to the 'spirit of God' within us human beings.

Please read on the creation of 'adam' such as in verse 1529 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=15&verse=29) and the factual account on 'muhammad' in verse 3340 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=33&verse=40).

Just a short note on 'khatam' 'Khatam' is 'ring'. But not literally. Rather, it is an allegory. To illustrate this, look at the set of keys you have in your pocket or purse. The keys are held together by the ring of your keychain. 'Muhammad' is likened to that 'ring' that holds together the many keys (alnnabiyyeen). But what does this imply? It implies that 'muhammad' (remember that it refers to 'the spirit of God' mentioned earlier?) delivers the message of God to all 'nabiyyeen', and as such all 'nabiyyeen' deliver the same one message. All 'nabiyyeen' are taught by the same 'rasool' within themselves, and in some cases some 'nabiyyeen' were elevated in status to become 'rusool'. It is all about becoming - from the status of an average person to the status of a 'nabiy' and later on to the status of a 'rasool'. This is a subject of metaphysics that I tried to explain in simple language strictly for the general readers/non-students of metaphysics. (Please forgive me if I failed to do it. )

And so to say the 'shahadah' is to express an acknowledgment "I acknowledge that it is not God other than God and I acknowledge that 'the one worthy of praise' (muhammad/the spirit of God) is the messenger (rasool) of God."

As I have mentioned, the spirit of God is within each and everyone of us, thereby making us all potential 'nabiyyun' (people who seclude themselves from others to be close to God in order to receive God's message).

Expand this idea further and you will after a while, insha allah, grasp the many mind-boggling ideas you came across in the Q, for example; there is a 'rasool' in every 'ummah' or that God's message to you will be delivered in your very own language.

And to end this post, I quote verse 4733. You may want to read here http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=33 for some translations. Indeed, I don't suppose that God has commanded upon us to commit 'shirk'.

But I must also say that this personal comprehension on 'shahadah' differs very much from what you have been told or you have read before. As I have frequently mentioned in this forum, please ask God for all questions that you might have, but be respectful and be patient with God. My questions regarding 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' in 1997 was answered only in 2004. Yes, there was a 7-year wait for me, but not necessarily the same for some other people that I have met. And by having a different comprehension does not give me any right nor privilege to wrong other people or wrong their understandings. Only God is our judge.

Read you can. Understand you may. But please do not accept this to be the truth without a prior counsel from God.

May God guide us all correctly.

Mohammed Noh

Salaam Mohammed Noh
Whatever are yours arguments, they can be applied to who want to say
"ASHADU AN LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH WA ASHADU ANNA MOUSSA RASOOLO ALLAH"

contradicting GOD when he says that YOU WERE NOT MINA AL CHAHIDIN

2843 We had given Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations; as an example for the people and a guidance and a mercy, perhaps they will take heed.
2844 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness (MINA EL CHAHIDIN)..

I know it is difficult to reject the shahada for someone who used to says it from childhood.
I pronunced that false testmimony many times befire i was remind verses of my God

But IT IS A LIE, A LIE AND A LIE.

2571 And whoever repents, and does good, then he shall repent towards God a true repentance.
2572 And those who do not bear false witness, and if they pass by vain talk they pass by with dignity.
2573 And those who when they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.

I cannot understand why people are so attached to an extra-quranic expression, that is clearly, in best of cases, a vain talk.

Peace.

faruk

Salam brother noshirk. You are right. The shahada is a false shahada , based on lie. I don't think anybody of present muslims witnessed personally Allah or Muhammad.

Joe_Betik

Salam all,

Eventhough I put a cautioning remark well before introducing my personal comprehension, and then closed the post with a request that no one should accept it blindly, many of you found it hard to accept the fact that there are different views regarding the 'shahadah'.

But I don't wrong anyone of you regarding this matter, just like I never wrong anybody even if they hold a view that the earth is flat, or if they believe God is residing in the skirs/heavens, or if they behave as if God is deaf or dead.

I may share my personal comprehensions but I never impose them on anyone. Yet people wrote what they wrote.

But sorry to note that almost all the posts in reply to mine (above) are showing the symptoms of a basic human problem - the inability to accept the fact that no human being holds the absolute truth about anything. Strange as it may, these people professed to believe or have faith in God and the last day, when in the first place believing or having faith in God implies that we depend on God for the absolute truth about everything.

And I must quote this closing part of my earlier post

But I must also say that this personal comprehension on 'shahadah' differs very much from what you have been told or you have read before. As I have frequently mentioned in this forum, please ask God for all questions that you might have, but be respectful and be patient with God. My questions regarding 'muhammad' in the 'shahadah' in 1997 was answered only in 2004. Yes, there was a 7-year wait for me, but not necessarily the same for some other people that I have met. And by having a different comprehension does not give me any right nor privilege to wrong other people or wrong their understandings. Only God is our judge.

Read you can. Understand you may. But please do not accept this to be the truth without a prior counsel from God.

And perhaps I must also add Please do not reject this without a prior counsel from God. The very whole idea is to appoint and respect God as our teacher, counsel and reference in our studies.

May God guide us all correctly.

Mohammed Noh

Bender

Salam all,

But sorry to note that almost all the posts in reply to mine (above) are showing the symptoms of a basic human problem - the inability to accept the fact that no human being holds the absolute truth about anything. Strange as it may, these people professed to believe or have faith in God and the last day, when in the first place believing or having faith in God implies that we depend on God for the absolute truth about everything.

May God guide us all correctly.

Mohammed Noh

Salaam Mohammed Noh,

I am not sure but I think you were referring to me.
I am sorry that I replied to your post, I thought it was ok with you.

Anyway, for you your understanding for me mine handshake

Salaam and take care,
Bender

Joe_Betik

Salaam Mohammed Noh,

I am not sure but I think you were referring to me.
I am sorry that I replied to your post, I thought it was ok with you.

Anyway, for you your understanding for me mine handshake

Salaam and take care,
Bender

Salam Bender,

Ah! You beat me to it! I was taking a break before posting a reply to you. So, no. I was not refering to you. I am sorry if you felt so. Apologies please. And I'l post my reply to you later, insha allah.

Mohammed Noh