Food for thought,or did he mean "NO"- to sex and t
-
Salaams darcus,
Nice one you understood the taweez thingy,i suppose it can apply to people abstaining from talking ,stops arguments in their tracks,and also gives us time to go over things in our minds -so we can get back on track with respect to God Almighties commands.But the ayat about Mary,abstaining was essentially to try and understand the concept of sawm i.e what does Allah refer to when he talks about sawm,and reffering to the other ayats i can take it as abstaining from sex and talking
But we can look forward to further research about this,no doubt.Bye.
-
Peace be upon you,
WOW! I think when brother Darcus placed those verses here, it allowed me to see this much clearer.
I take Mary to symbolize the feminine Mind(nafs), it must leave tradition and "escape" behind a barrier so that it can be totally free from pre concieved ideas, so that the new idea (Isa) can be concieved. It is a rough process, very difficult, as the women who have children can tell us men for certain. The mind will be so worked out that it will wish that itcould go back to the state of being "spiritually dead" so that it would not have to endure the stress of serious thinking, but the God assures the mind that the mind who seeks sincrely will always have "rivers flowing beneath, which keep the fruits always near", so "eat and drink" this WISDOM. I am not sure what "cooling the eye" means.
When the human being returns to thier family and its traditions, the family asks you, basically "whats going on?", but we do not speak of our own desire, we allow the new idea/WORD(isa) speak. It is only an idea/new WORD that can speak in infancy, not a human child.
Last thing, the ancients taught that the MIND and the SEXUAL CENTERS are on oppsoite sides of the same pole, they both CREATE. Like a see saw, if you want to rise higher on one side you have to pull back on the other side, so if we want to create mentily, we must restrict the sex.
Any comments?
-
peace be upon you,
idolfree - im glad me putting the verses up helped. I often work in this manner - finding 'compartments' of information - it is best to see if there are patterns within each chapter, extract this 'pattern' in order to clarify and decode the information. Often I find, if you spot a particular pattern, the meaning of unclear verse or two can resolve itself crytal clear - not just in the light of it's surrounding verses or 'compartment' but also in the other cells of information.
I am intrigued by how you search for symbolism. Do you find that it just makes sense if your 'minds eye' SEES the information pictorially? I think in pictures so it makes sense to me. Can I ask where you got the phrase 'cooling the eye' from? Are you looking at
Chapter 102
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Most Merciful
1021. Hoarding has distracted you.
1022. Until you visit the graves.
1023. No, you will find out.
1024. Then again, you will find out.
1025. No, if only you had the knowledge of certainty.
1026. You would then see Hell.
1027. Then you will see it with the eye of certainty.
1028. Then you will be questioned, on that Day, about the blessings.Perhaps it is the eye of certainty which you speak of - how we discern if we are in Hell or not?
In regards to the concept of paradise/garden I think I may agree with you. I feel it is a state of mind, heaven and hellfire that is. A bit like the light and dark states of the mind - positive and negative emotions. My thoughts
This life is here for our minds to pass information to the soul so that it can learn a way of being. The ideal way of being is that to be in harmony with all of reality - following a righteous path. If the soul is bought in alignment with this reality, then it can appreciate the 'rivers flowing beneath, which keep the fruits always near' Eating and drinking from this source is the wisdom you speak of. To be misaligned is to be frustrated, angry, because no matter what you do, you cannot 'eat and drink' from this wisdom, not ever. The change from when you have the freedom to choose if you want to delve into the wisdom, to the point you can no longer choose is death of the mind/body complex. The soul is on its own so has either been 'trained' to use rivers and fruit or not.
On to your last point, regarding the abstinence from sex. I would like to know who these 'ancients' are that you speak of. I agree up to a point, because sex is possibly the most basic and greatest driving force that we or any living creature has. The difference between us and other creatures is our freedom of choice (the trust, if you will). It could be that once we control our sexual 'urges' our lusting, we can focus our mental energies not on chasing the next lovely lady (or guy), but on inner development. Learning self control. I would think it ultimately boils down on how much control of our universe we wish to gain. We have the capacity to control a very large segment of this 'universe' within our sphere of influence. Back to hellfire again, when there is no control, it feels like 'hell'. When we have control we feel much better, more at peace.
Tell me what you think - all total conjecture and I have no verses to prove my ideas.
tata for now.
darcus -
Peace Mz
2187 It is permitted for you the nights of abstaining ? sexual contact to your women. They are garment/confidant for you and you are their garment/confidant. God knows indeed you - that you have wronged yourselves ? thus He pardoned on you and He forgave it from you ? accordingly - now - MAKE THEM HAPPY (4223) - and you shall seek whatever is dictated by God for you.
And EAT and drink UNTIL IT IS CLEAR FOR YOU the white thread (3527) from the black thread ?
from DAWN ? then - abstain yourself to the NIGHT. And THEY ARE NOT HAPPY and YOU ARE DEVOTED IN THE SUBMISSION.
That is the limit of God - thus you shall not approach them. That is how God explains His signs for mankind so that they observe.
It is ONLY about sexual contact and not a looking to the sky for a thread and not about a holy month. Note 2188 eat/consume is not food.
2188 And do not EAT your properties with each other with prejudice - and that you bring with it to justice so that you may consume part of the properties from the people illegally - and whilst you know.
Then, during the challenge there is no sexual contact and you have been instructed in 187 the limit of this abstention
2197 The challenge are months to be declared (91-4). Thus whoever resolves in it the challenges - thus there shall be NO SEXUAL CONTACT (2187), and no wickedness, and no argument in the challenge - and whatever you do from the good things - definitely it will be known to God. And be well prepared - thus surely the best preparation is being observant. And you shall observe Me - O you who possess intelligence.
2183 to 203 can be better understood if kept in context. I understand them to be about fighting in the path of God intellectually and physically if attacked. We are taught how to do this and what to expect, very much like the ?rules of engagement? in the military. Sura 9 gives the example of the messenger?s GreatEST challenge and the four months during which fighting is prohibited. I am still pondering over this.
-
Peace be upon you Darcus,
idolfree - im glad me putting the verses up helped. I often work in this manner - finding 'compartments' of information - it is best to see if there are patterns within each chapter, extract this 'pattern' in order to clarify and decode the information. Often I find, if you spot a particular pattern, the meaning of unclear verse or two can resolve itself crytal clear - not just in the light of it's surrounding verses or 'compartment' but also in the other cells of information.
Yes, this is my process also, I just don't always go back to it as much as I should.
I am intrigued by how you search for symbolism. Do you find that it just makes sense if your 'minds eye' SEES the information pictorially? I think in pictures so it makes sense to me.
Yes, I am in search of a mental pictures. I beleieve that it is through this process that we program the mind for righteousness. We cannot always look around us and get good "programming" with all the corruption, so we turn inside and create mental visions to help us program our minds in the rigtht direction. When I approach a subject, I like to think literally, but many things just dont fit literally, and when I trun to symbolism, it comes togethewr, not only for this reading(quran) , but the symbolism starts to pull together MANY of these "religions" and we can see how they all came from the same essential message.
Can I ask where you got the phrase 'cooling the eye' from?
Actually, I don't think you had that in the translation you gave, but It wa stuck in my memory. When I looked for this, I found;
(1926) "So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the merciful, a fast , so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human .'"
Are you looking at
Chapter 102
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Most Merciful
1021. Hoarding has distracted you.
1022. Until you visit the graves.
1023. No, you will find out.
1024. Then again, you will find out.
1025. No, if only you had the knowledge of certainty.
1026. You would then see Hell.
1027. Then you will see it with the eye of certainty.
1028. Then you will be questioned, on that Day, about the blessings.Perhaps it is the eye of certainty which you speak of - how we discern if we are in Hell or not?
I am not sure yet, I need to reflect on it for a while.
In regards to the concept of paradise/garden I think I may agree with you. I feel it is a state of mind, heaven and hellfire that is. A bit like the light and dark states of the mind - positive and negative emotions. My thoughts
This life is here for our minds to pass information to the soul so that it can learn a way of being. The ideal way of being is that to be in harmony with all of reality - following a righteous path. If the soul is bought in alignment with this reality, then it can appreciate the 'rivers flowing beneath, which keep the fruits always near' Eating and drinking from this source is the wisdom you speak of. To be misaligned is to be frustrated, angry, because no matter what you do, you cannot 'eat and drink' from this wisdom, not ever. The change from when you have the freedom to choose if you want to delve into the wisdom, to the point you can no longer choose is death of the mind/body complex. The soul is on its own so has either been 'trained' to use rivers and fruit or not.
Yes, I only disagree with certain wordings, but we agree on the overall principle.
On to your last point, regarding the abstinence from sex. I would like to know who these 'ancients' are that you speak of.
I am usually referring to the people of Kemet(ancient Egypt) and then Greece, but I rather say ancients because people tend to have the wrong ideas about thier teachings.
I agree up to a point, because sex is possibly the most basic and greatest driving force that we or any living creature has. The difference between us and other creatures is our freedom of choice (the trust, if you will). It could be that once we control our sexual 'urges' our lusting, we can focus our mental energies not on chasing the next lovely lady (or guy), but on inner development. Learning self control. I would think it ultimately boils down on how much control of our universe we wish to gain. We have the capacity to control a very large segment of this 'universe' within our sphere of influence. Back to hellfire again, when there is no control, it feels like 'hell'. When we have control we feel much better, more at peace.
Tell me what you think - all total conjecture and I have no verses to prove my ideas.
Yes, I agree with that line of reasoning.
-
Salaams gourself,
Just helping you in your effort,although i am giving up.The word KULOO and Ashraboo,don't just mean food and drink.
Waatoo alnnisaa saduqatihinna nihlatan fain tibna lakum AAan shayin minhu nafsan faKULOOhu haneean mareean
44 And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.Waatoo alyatama amwalahum wala tatabaddaloo alkhabeetha bialttayyibi wala taKULOO amwalahum ila amwalikum innahu kana hooban kabeeran
42 To orphans restore their property (When they reach their age), nor substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la taKULOO alrriba adAAafan mudaAAafatan waittaqoo Allaha laAAallakum tuflihoona
3130 O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah. that ye may (really) prosper.Waith qulna odkhuloo hathihi alqaryata faKULOO minha haythu shitum raghadan waodkhuloo albaba sujjadan waqooloo hittatun naghfir lakum khatayakum wasanazeedu almuhsineena
258 And remember We said "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good."Allatheena yaKULOOna alrriba la yaqoomoona illa kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu alshshaytanu mina almassi thalika biannahum qaloo innama albayAAu mithlu alrriba waahalla Allahu albayAAa waharrama alrriba faman jaahu mawAAithatun min rabbihi faintaha falahu ma salafa waamruhu ila Allahi waman AAada faolaika ashabu alnnari hum feeha khalidoona
2275 Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire They will abide therein (for ever).Ya ayyuha alnnasu KULOO mimma fee alardi halalan tayyiban wala tattabiAAoo khutuwati alshshaytani innahu lakum AAaduwwun mubeenun
2168 O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemyWala takuloo amwalakum baynakum bialbatili watudloo biha ila alhukkami litaKULOO fareeqan min amwali alnnasi bialithmi waantum taAAlamoona
2188 And do not eat up your property among yourselves for vanities, nor use it as bait for the judges, with intent that ye may eat up wrongfully and knowingly a little of (other) people's property.Inna allatheena yaktumoona ma anzala Allahu mina alkitabi wayashtaroona bihi thamanan qaleelan olaika ma yaKULOOna fee butoonihim illa alnnara wala yukallimuhumu Allahu yawma alqiyamati wala yuzakkeehim walahum AAathabun aleemun
2174 Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them Grievous will be their penalty.Waatoo alnnisaa saduqatihinna nihlatan fain tibna lakum AAan shayin minhu nafsan faKULOOhu haneean mareean
44 And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.Kuloo waishraboo haneean bima kuntum taAAmaloona
7743 "Eat ye and drink ye to your heart's content for that ye worked (Righteousness).I wonder if this means to nourish yourselves with all that you desire,rather then just with food and drink!
Page 286 of the Quranic Dictionery.
Sharab fi qalbahu =Love of such and such a thing permeated his heart.
The word is so used because love is like alcohol that intoxicates one who partakes of it.Ushribue=They were made to drink/were permeated with (love)/were made to imbibe(the love of)/(the love was )made to sink.
2187
Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and enjoy and make (love), until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in submissions. Those are Limits (set by) Allah Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men that theyGood luck,and Bye.
-
Peace MZ
That is what I understand. I believe literal food, ta'am is used in tandem with kulu and there is another verb for to "water" that is a physical drinking also.
I read you post where you say you are going on with your busy life. I am sorry that you will not be sharing your thoughts on this forum. Perhaps you will reconsider when the moon is right (silly joke). I would like to maybe bounce some thoughts off you in email. Take care!
-
2197 The challenge are months to be declared (91-4). Thus whoever resolves in it the challenges - thus there shall be NO SEXUAL CONTACT (2187), and no wickedness, and no argument in the challenge - and whatever you do from the good things - definitely it will be known to God. And be well prepared - thus surely the best preparation is being observant. And you shall observe Me - O you who possess intelligence.
I forgot to mention that this verse also denounces the persistent, still practiced, terror of raping the women in conflicts.
-
peace be upon you Grourself,
I like your understanding, I agree with you that 2183-203 all speak on intellectually debating in the cause of God, I was under the impression that food and drink wasn't allowed from dawn to dust in the 10 day abstinence until I began pondering over it today, God didn't declare specifically "don't eat and drink", bur I was still confused about why God mentioned eating and drinking in the verse though and you opened my eyes to 2188, appreciation be to God, I think that there are two types of fighting in the reading, fighting with our minds (nafs) which is the debate (alhajj) and striving (jihad), and then there's physical fighting, which makes sense because the reading is a perfect balance to the physical and nonphysical in every situation so its quite reasonable that it would be the same regarding warfare too, 2183-203 and chapter 9 speak about fighting with our minds in the cause of God, I'm beginning to come to an overall view of hajj (debate/challenge), sharhu ramadhan (months of shedding/contemplative thoughts), solaa (commitment/obligation), and zakaa (purification/embetterment), plus masjid (institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden or acts of compliace) and al-bayt (still unsure of, the more i study it the more i think it means the system) have also been hard and long studies for me
-
Peace Idris,
I understand bayt as system but I was trying to reconcile buyut. What totally stumped me was
The parable of those who take guardians besides Allah is as the parable of the spider that makes for itself a house; and most surely the frailest of the houses is the spider's house did they but know.
The verb is used 3 times. First, in the form of bayt and it says she ?takes? a bayt (as those who ?take? guardians), then buyuti labaytu?In another post I mentioned that my research on spiders indicates two things, a spider does not live in his web and the web is not frail by any scientific means of measuring. I was pondering over it being a reference to the socialization of the spider. God says in 2943 that none understand but the learned. Guess that ain?t me ) but I?ll continue to exert myself and seek guidance.
-
peace All,
If one studies the occurrences of BYT in al quran, there is significant evidence suggesting that it sometimes means "house" in the metaphorical / non-literal sense, which some people call "system".
In fact, its metaphorical or non-literal meaning is even used in English today. A recent example I heard was when one member of a political party replied to a comment by a member from a rival political party by saying something similar to "I would advise them to get their own house in order before they criticise ours".
At its core, bayt to me, means something one can construct/build and thus enter, encompassing both physical and non-physical understandings, depending on context.
Wakas
-
Any comments?
Peace Idolfree1
Really good work. Your 'eye' can see alot.
Last thing, the ancients taught that the MIND and the SEXUAL CENTERS are on oppsoite sides of the same pole, they both CREATE. Like a see saw, if you want to rise higher on one side you have to pull back on the other side, so if we want to create mentily, we must restrict the sex.
I do not believe abstention from sex is the only way we can create mentally. Your example of the sea-saw shows that everything is two sided, perhaps abstention from selfish sex or for that matter selfish desires is a way to create mentally. Since everything is created in 'pairs' so must sex be then (two-sided that is). If all creation is from God then we cannot create unless the 'self' is removed (crucified).
I do not think the Quran implies Mary was a virgin for ever, perhaps patience was the emphasis.
From what I have come to understand of the knowledge of those before us is that the sexual glands are our holders of creative energy, it all rests in there like a snake coiled up waiting to be risen. And this energy can be used productively or destructively.
I am not sure what "cooling the eye" means.
Cooling the eye is interestingly worded, since we have two eyes and it did not speak plurally it must not be referring to our physical make up. Perhaps it is refference to our perspective, but I am not sure exactly what cooling ones perspective implies. Could Yusuf Alis translation be wrong on that verse and theirs right?
An interesting thing I noticed is that you left out/missed the number of days Mary was asked to fast, three. Think about it.
pz
-
Peace,
Thanks Idris,
I am trying to learn. Here is what I?ve noticed concerning hajj. Using a bit of grammar in Sura Taubah the messenger announces ?al hajj al akbar?, ?the GREATEST challenge?, which is the superlative. When I was researching the perversion of God?s attribute Al Kabir which is perfect and proceeded by the definite article, I first thought the translation of Allahu Akbar was God the Biggest/Greatest which would make it a comparison and a perversion, i.e., greatest among what? But when I took another look I realized that it would be ?Allahu AL Akbar? to translate it as ?greatest?. I was easily able to prove that what they are really saying is ?God the bigger/GREATER? which is even worse in perversion as comparisons go, than GREATEST See 93
And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
In this translation the author deviates further by writing ?greater? instead of greatest as the Arabic reads and of course the word pilgrimage is a corruption of a very easy verb.
From this verse I deduce that this challenge is in comparison to other challenges one will encounter and the challenge that involves fighting is the al hajj al akbar, ?GREATEST challenge? as per the verse.
