In regard to 5:28- Do we stand idly and get killed?
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i understand Quran as guidance to reach God in the state of peace. from the verse stated - The humble and God fearing person is in such a beautiful situation - he is in peace. he accepts even death in that peaceful state, so he is not tempted to defend or strike back. if he dies, he knows he will go back to his Lord.
the humble and God fearing person will only wish to reach God when he is in peace, satisfied with God and also God satisfied with him. (89 27 -30).
we as believers in God, should not expect bad happenings in our life. This is our prayer. If we expect bad, we reject God and then it is yet to come; if we expect good, then it is there with God's blessings. (1434)
I probably would get into a whole argument with you here as I don't agree as there are verses I believe that it states you can kill people under certain conditions such at what 2290 to 2294 say or what 533 says. So I don't plan to respond to to such statements any further and want a real answer involving all those verses I believe where we are allowed to kill people under such conditions as well as what 528 might really mean in comparison to those many verses.
Also just a heads up, I do not want to die cause I don't know whether i'm going to heaven or hell and thus due to my fears I would like to at least enjoy my life as is and thus why I would like to defend myself if someone is trying to kill me let alone save my mother if she is being attacked for example.
Regardless no offense but I don't plan to respond to such posts, thanks and would like to only respond to ones that explain 528 vs all those other verses that I believe allow killing under certain conditions such as 2290 to 2294 or what 533 states.
Of course, this is what I believe I think at the moment but I may be wrong in all or some of this as i'm never sure 100% so if i'm wrong then please Allah forgive me.
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So I saw the verse in 528 of the Quran
"If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, the Lord of the worlds." (52
this really made me question self-defense here.
I made a topic not too long ago about killing in self-defense and these verses stood out for me that you can
"It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth." (532)
"The recompense of those who fight GOD and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution." (533)
These make it sound that you can kill in self-defense considering if they are coming to kill me, that I think would be corruption which is what was concluded in the other topic
Then there was this verse that stood out
"Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which GOD has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend." (6151)
This verse states not to kill except in justice. Isn't defending out own lives justice let alone killing the person who is committing corruption there?
Thus 528 has confused me in that he was threatened to be killed but said that he won't try to kill him to survive, thus he simply got killed.
What do you guys think? If it is as said, I find it rather odd considering a woman who might be raped by a guy who is attacking her can't try to take him out?, or a man who is being chased by a gang who want his life but can't kill any to survive. Or how about if you see your own mother being attacked and you could stop him by killing him?
I know there is the idea of hurting them enough only to get away, but how can we guarantee that considering during that moment we just wanna survive and thus would try to take them down as fast as possible so we are safe? and heck many people have the idea of murdering the one who is endangering them with rape or murder or both in order to remain safe, are they gonna end up burdening that cause of this??
Salam
Have you considered reading the whole surah? Taking 528 only is taking it out of context. You have to (at least) start with 527 and finish with 532. It is a story of the two sons of Adam and their disagreement.
And recite to them the news of the two sons of Adam with truth.They had both made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, and not accepted from the other. He said "I will kill you!" He said "God only accepts from the righteous." "If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, Lord of the worlds." "I want you to have both my sin and your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the Fire. Such is the recompense of the wicked."
So he found it in himself to kill his brother; so he killed him. He thus became one of the losers.
So God sent forth a raven to scratch the land and show him how to deal with the body of his brother. He said "Woe to me! Am I not even able to be like this raven and deal with the body of my brother?" So he became of those who regretted.
It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earth -
Salam
Have you considered reading the whole surah? Taking 528 only is taking it out of context. You have to (at least) start with 527 and finish with 532. It is a story of the two sons of Adam and their disagreement.
And recite to them the news of the two sons of Adam with truth.They had both made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, and not accepted from the other. He said "I will kill you!" He said "God only accepts from the righteous." "If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, Lord of the worlds." "I want you to have both my sin and your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the Fire. Such is the recompense of the wicked."
So he found it in himself to kill his brother; so he killed him. He thus became one of the losers.
So God sent forth a raven to scratch the land and show him how to deal with the body of his brother. He said "Woe to me! Am I not even able to be like this raven and deal with the body of my brother?" So he became of those who regretted.
It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earthThank you Emil but I think I have read the whole thing before of the verses you posted but I still am not entirely sure why 528 is stated as such versus those other verses as far as I understand and believe of the meanings of these and those verses.
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Thank you Emil but I think I have read the whole thing before of the verses you posted but I still am not entirely sure why 528 is stated as such versus those other verses as far as I understand and believe of the meanings of these and those verses.
Salam Aryan
I understand what you mean. But the story of Cain and Abel is older than the Quran, therefore the "original" can be found outside the Quran. I believe the Quran corrects a minute part of the story. Obviously the jews and christians got it a bit wrong. As far as I remember there is no mention of "even if you try to kill me I will not raise my hand against you" in the biblical scripts..........The Quran puts the story straight so to say.
So take the story of Cain and Abel from the older scriptures, insert the Quranic verse in the fitting place and voil? you will have a story that conveys a message. My personal favourite message is that martyrdom does not involve you dying while killing others. You can only become a martyr of God with passive resistance. For example the chinese dude which stood in front of a tank on Tiaman square........Don't know how old you are, maybe you never heard of it...... but youtube it.....I find his protest the best example of passive resistance....... Anyways a bit offtopic but nonetheless.
The story of Cain and Abel is a story with a message, what the message contains is up to you.
The message you find is yours to keep, but do not cross-reference to other verses or take out a single verse and scrutinize on a individual basis. If you do that you will find many contradictions.
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Does no one seriously have an answer this?
I think the person said that he does not have it in him to kill his own brother. Plus maybe he did not think that his brother would actually kill him but was threatening only.There is not enough to go by from this verse alone. The issue here has to do with intentional murder as compared to unintentional murder. It also highlights why murder is a big grave sin. Because killing one of the sons of Adam is almost like killing all the possible offsprings that could have come from that person. If all the children of Adam perished young none of us will be alive today and there would have been no human existence.
I just don't see enough on that verse to make deductions about not defending oneself. Anyways that was the words chosen by a son of Adam and not a Quranic command or even a prophetic command.
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Salam Aryan
I understand what you mean. But the story of Cain and Abel is older than the Quran, therefore the "original" can be found outside the Quran. I believe the Quran corrects a minute part of the story. Obviously the jews and christians got it a bit wrong. As far as I remember there is no mention of "even if you try to kill me I will not raise my hand against you" in the biblical scripts..........The Quran puts the story straight so to say.
So take the story of Cain and Abel from the older scriptures, insert the Quranic verse in the fitting place and voil? you will have a story that conveys a message. My personal favourite message is that martyrdom does not involve you dying while killing others. You can only become a martyr of God with passive resistance. For example the chinese dude which stood in front of a tank on Tiaman square........Don't know how old you are, maybe you never heard of it...... but youtube it.....I find his protest the best example of passive resistance....... Anyways a bit offtopic but nonetheless.
The story of Cain and Abel is a story with a message, what the message contains is up to you.
The message you find is yours to keep, but do not cross-reference to other verses or take out a single verse and scrutinize on a individual basis. If you do that you will find many contradictions.
I think I understand what you mean here considering in those selection of verses we had the part that said
"It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth. The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution. " (532-533)Thus I think that maybe since it says because of what happened between the two sons of Adam that Allah decreed the laws of who you can kill under certain conditions which would correct what the son who died could have fought back rather than assume all forms of killing are not allowed. Though that's only a possible theory I am getting from this, but do you think it makes sense some sense here?
I think the person said that he does not have it in him to kill his own brother. Plus maybe he did not think that his brother would actually kill him but was threatening only.There is not enough to go by from this verse alone. The issue here has to do with intentional murder as compared to unintentional murder. It also highlights why murder is a big grave sin. Because killing one of the sons of Adam is almost like killing all the possible offsprings that could have come from that person. If all the children of Adam perished young none of us will be alive today and there would have been no human existence.
I just don't see enough on that verse to make deductions about not defending oneself. Anyways that was the words chosen by a son of Adam and not a Quranic command or even a prophetic command.
Well I don't think it was the idea that he did not have it in him to kill his brother considering it said that he fears Allah. However thinking that it's a threat sounds reasonable. Anyways yes it is true that if they died, the human race could be endangered if Adam didn't have more sons or try to have more sons.
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Thus I think that maybe since it says because of what happened between the two sons of Adam that Allah decreed the laws of who you can kill under certain conditions which would correct what the son who died could have fought back rather than assume all forms of killing are not allowed. Though that's only a possible theory I am getting from this, but do you think it makes sense some sense here?
Salam brother
To tell you the truth in all honesty I do not think Allah is giving us a law about who is allowed and not allowed to kill under certain conditions. I think the verse is part of an allegorical story and should not be interpreted or read without context. Remember, the Quran stipulates that we are not to make rules for mankind from the allegorical surahs/verses, the story of Adams two sons is IMO completely allegorical.
You should see it as a story and the message can be one, two, three or any number. We are all different and we can find different morals to any story. Allah wants us to be different so we can share different attributes with eachother. I found one really good (christian) message on yahoo answer regarding Cain and Abel;
Cain is the person who tries to please God through works as in trying to be good on his own terms. giving fruit offerings instead of an animal sacrifice which is what was required. It is like humans thinking they are "good" because they can think of people who do worse things than they do.
Ultimately there is a prescribed "good" that God set up with his commandments that can't be substituted. Instead of going back and repenting and doing the "right" thing, he blamed God and his brother for his own shortcomings. (God was unfair).
Abel is the one who followed God's orders and did the right thing even if it was harder to do. They are also a representation of Christ. Abel being the form of Christ and Cain being the sinners in the world who would reject and kill him -
Salam brother
To tell you the truth in all honesty I do not think Allah is giving us a law about who is allowed and not allowed to kill under certain conditions. I think the verse is part of an allegorical story and should not be interpreted or read without context. Remember, the Quran stipulates that we are not to make rules for mankind from the allegorical surahs/verses, the story of Adams two sons is IMO completely allegorical.
You should see it as a story and the message can be one, two, three or any number. We are all different and we can find different morals to any story. Allah wants us to be different so we can share different attributes with eachother. I found one really good (christian) message on yahoo answer regarding Cain and Abel;
Cain is the person who tries to please God through works as in trying to be good on his own terms. giving fruit offerings instead of an animal sacrifice which is what was required. It is like humans thinking they are "good" because they can think of people who do worse things than they do.
Ultimately there is a prescribed "good" that God set up with his commandments that can't be substituted. Instead of going back and repenting and doing the "right" thing, he blamed God and his brother for his own shortcomings. (God was unfair).
Abel is the one who followed God's orders and did the right thing even if it was harder to do. They are also a representation of Christ. Abel being the form of Christ and Cain being the sinners in the world who would reject and kill himAlright then what I wonder is why did he say "..."If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, Lord of the worlds"..."
And can you also show me that verse you mentioned that states that we are not to make rules for mankind from the allegorical surahs/verses?
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Alright then what I wonder is why did he say "..."If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, Lord of the worlds"..."
And can you also show me that verse you mentioned that states that we are not to make rules for mankind from the allegorical surahs/verses?
Your question is a very good one and I don't have an answer for you. I have one for me but it would be wrong of me to say it is right for you. It is my freedom to think, it is your freedom to think.
But if you are interested in what message Cain and Abel has for me it is like I said before, I think it is a message that the most courageous people are those who will not lift a finger to hurt another person, eventhough they could be killed. Gandhi is a good example, Buddha is another.........A true martyr never hurts anyone, he uses passive resistance.
This is what allegory means and it gives the Quran a flexibility to fit into all socities on earth. It also gives flexibility to be timeless, people change and the interpret stories different from year to year.
Surah 3 verse 7 translation from Shakir
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
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this really made me question self-defense here.
The immediate verse explains the point translated by yousef ali "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine" means; (I will not stretch forth my hand to kill you. I am very much afraid of disobeying Allah?s Laws,) it may, however, come about that in defending myself some harm may come to you. You will be responsible both for your intention to kill me and the injury you might receive at my hands. This is the exposition of the verse given by Parwez. http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_005.htm
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The immediate verse explains the point translated by yousef ali "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine" means; (I will not stretch forth my hand to kill you. I am very much afraid of disobeying Allah?s Laws,) it may, however, come about that in defending myself some harm may come to you. You will be responsible both for your intention to kill me and the injury you might receive at my hands. This is the exposition of the verse given by Parwez. http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_005.htm
I'm still unsure what it means.