Does God EXIST???
-
Peace to all,
I ws goin through this philosophy of religion and I found out the Paul Tillich's works on Christian Theology, he was by the way a Christian Existntialist Philosopher.
By that
It is an ATHEIST who says that God Exists.
Dont get shocked. I like the extremely beautiful explanation that suports this claim.
Actually, I mean to say that
"God is INFINITE. If we do not understand the meaning of INFINITE. we can render wrong attributes to God.
Infinite means unbound, thus there will never ever be a thing or an idea that BOUNDS GOD.In this way, if we say God Exists, We are defining God in BOUNDARIES of
EXISTENCE. Which means thatTHE GOD WHICH EXIST IS NOT GOD AT ALL."
Is not this BEAUTIFUL???
So relying on the extreme sense of this claim,
Coming to Quran,
I think that the BELIEVE in GOD 262 talks about is
"NOT Believing that GOD EXISTS, beacause God's Existence is NOT DEFINABLE (because of the infinity of His Infinite Attributes)."
"So I think that 262 talks about something else, we may not have speculated yet."
I am in need of your honest and serious comments.
Peace
Harun. ) confused confused -
Salamun Alaykum.
Brother, please stop listening to atheist philosophers. God simply told us to believe in Him in hundreds of verses in the Qur'an, and not only in 262. Whether God is infinite or finite, He still would be existing either way, right? So we have to believe in His existence and in His words irrespective of whether he's infinite or finite (although we do all believe that he is infinite).
Peace.
-
Peace
Brother, first of all we should NOT stop listening to anyone. As Quran tells us, listen to all and follow the best.
Secndly, He is NOT an atheist. He is a Christian Philosophers.
Thirdly, I want to find out the truth, thus I am asking people or in other words dicussing with them. If we are curtailed from the views of ithers, be it an atheist, HOW CAN WE BE FREE MINDs?
This unfortunate response of yours reminds me of the first sentence uttered by the HADITHERs when confronted with a DOUBTED BROTHER.
Hope this doesnot sound harsh to you. But this is the ultimate path to truth, through logic and reasoning.Peace
Harun. ) -
Peace
Brother, first of all we should NOT stop listening to anyone. As Quran tells us, listen to all and follow the best.
Secndly, He is NOT an atheist. He is a Christian Philosophers.
Thirdly, I want to find out the truth, thus I am asking people or in other words dicussing with them. If we are curtailed from the views of ithers, be it an atheist, HOW CAN WE BE FREE MINDs?
This unfortunate response of yours reminds me of the first sentence uttered by the HADITHERs when confronted with a DOUBTED BROTHER.
Hope this doesnot sound harsh to you. But this is the ultimate path to truth, through logic and reasoning.Peace
Harun. )Peace, brother.
No, absolutely not. It didn't sound harsh to me). I apologize if I sounded like a hadither to you, as that would be my mistake. It was just my little advice from a brother to another brother of the same faith to imply that no matter how much we try, we won't ever be able to find out the hidden attributes of God, as they have been purposely hidden from us by God. In this forum, I see people sometimes say things which lead to clear-cut shirk. So I believe that we must of course use our free minds, but we should stay in a limit which we shouldn't cross.
A few days ago, in a post someone wrote that "We are God". And I was like brickwall. Now this is what I call crossing the limit. But I'm not saying this topic of yours is crossing the limit. I just wanted to say that there are some things which we can never find out no matter how much we try to know and no matter how much we work hard to find out, as a lot of people in this forum don't seem to adhere to this fact.
Peace. peace
-
Peace
I am sorry at being rude to you. But what I wanted to say at the first post is that
Our Language is Insufficient to Define God.
This fact is indeed supported by the Book. Where Lord says that a Seven Oceans will run out before the words of Lords run out.
Now what I want to say is, NOT that God Does NOT Exist.
But EXISTENCE of Man and that of God is NOT the same. Because We can never truely know God, and God cannot be bound, God does not Exist like us.
So if an ATHEIST says God Does Not Exist, We Should say to Him that It is meaningless to argue about Existence of God, NOT because his existence is unprovable, but because He is beyond Existence and thus IS GOD.
Anything which Exists in the Human sense in the Creation of the Lord and NOT LORD ITSELF.
We believe that God cannot be bound by Existence and thus His Existence is Not Comprehensible in OUR REALM OF THOUGHT.
By the way, the Projection of the Laws Divine Reality of Lord is an ULTIMATE and UNDENIABLE TRUTH.
Hope u Understand my gibberish language
Peace
and Sorry for being rude, actually I was being rude in my mind to my Hadithist Friends,Peace
Harun. peace -
Peace.
I'm not understanding the basis of this claim... He's saying that God doesn't exist because he's "beyond existence"?
That's like saying that I can become 'so alive' (full of life) to the extent that I can't really be regarded as 'living' anymore. Or, I can have so much money that I can't be regarded as 'wealthy' anymore. If someone dies, can that person somehow go 'beyond death' to the point of not being characterized as 'dead' anymore?
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me at all. The concept(s) of that is totally irrational and illogical.
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Harun,
I understand exactly what you are saying, although it is very difficult, or rather impossible, to express in words. This is what I keep trying to express in some of my posts.
This is the core problem with religion. Religion is the institutionalized upholding of faith in a separate, outside, supernatural, character/person in the "sky" that they call God. They have an image of God that is nothing like God. Religion has made God into a thing, a person. I find that even using the word "God" is misleading. It gives you images that are nothing like God. This is why it says in the Quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. This includes mental images as well. I like to say that it is easier to move closer to a more accurate understanding of God, by thinking about what God is NOT.
This is why I think that some "believers" are better "categorized" as unbelievers. If you don't "get it"... if you cannot sense or feel God.... if it doesn't just make sense to you... then it doesn't matter what you call yourself. But of course, we will never be able to figure out another person's understanding of God, so therefor we must never judge others.
This thing which you, Harun, is pointing towards, will never be understood by someone who doesn't "sense it". But the funny thing is, that it may or may not be understood even by people who claim to believe in God. Actually what happens is that you'll end up discussing totally different things. Atheists discuss one thing, the one who senses God discusses one thing, and the religious person is discussing one thing. Typically, what the atheist is arguing against is the god image of the religious person, because it can be imagines intellectually with the mind. This image of a god is not the same as that which you are referring to, hence everyone is talking about different things. One can have different intellectual, philosophical or logical images of a god, whether you believe in them or not, but in reality, either you sense/feel that which you may call God, or you don't. Your mind won't make you sense it. It's out of the domain of the mind. The one who cannot sense it just won't understand what you're talking about. It will appear as stupid nonsense. And it cannot be explained, because it is not in the realm of the mind. Even this statement will appear as stupid nonsense to someone who can only see the world from the point of the mind.
This is why debates where different parties are trying to convince each other about the obviousness of their own stances regarding the "existence of God", are futile in essence and outcome. But it can be interesting to read though.
Cheers
-
Peace.
One can have different intellectual, philosophical or logical images of a god, whether you believe in them or not, but in reality, either you sense/feel that which you may call God, or you don't. Your mind won't make you sense it. It's out of the domain of the mind. The one who cannot sense it just won't understand what you're talking about. It will appear as stupid nonsense. And it cannot be explained, because it is not in the realm of the mind. Even this statement will appear as stupid nonsense to someone who can only see the world from the point of the mind.
This is nonsense. No disrespect to the "believers", but people who claim to understand something like this are generally just as foolish as the concept. There's no justification for holding onto an irrational viewpoint, especially once it's been designated as such. And, contrary to this position, there's no such thing as something 'not being in the realm of the mind'. Everything you see, hear, smell, touch and taste is in the realm of the mind, and that's how rational people determine the scope of objective reality. Saying "I feel it" is still within 'the realm of the mind', because it perpetrates thought and acceptance of something that can't be substantiated, regardless of where the thought or belief stems from.
God = infinite
Existence = finite
Infinite = beyond existenceGod is identified as infinite. Therefore, God is "beyond existence". Cool. However, regarding something as 'beyond existence' (e.g. metaphysical; supernatural) is not the same thing as saying that it's 'nonexistent'. That's where the reasoning falls apart and the blind faith (and irrational dogma) kicks in. From an objective standpoint, there's a limited way that this concept can be perceived either God exists, or he doesn't exist. Period. If he doesn't exist, then he's not real - characterizing him as unreal, imaginary, or the ultimate product of theistic delusion.
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace, Harun.
We believe that God cannot be bound by Existence and thus His Existence is Not Comprehensible in OUR REALM OF THOUGHT.
Does the Qur'aan agree with (or confirm) this position? Doesn't the scripture refer to Allah as "living"? In addition, if the Qur'aan identifies God by a list of attributes and characteristics, which display his position concerning man, wouldn't this make him comprehensible from our standpoint, due to our being able to grasp his attributes?
What's your take on this?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
In fact I believe that God is the only thing that exists. And I do not know what can bind existence, except God, and I do not know why God existence should be finite. As to go beyond existence and to be able to imagin that nothing exists, that existence does not exist, I am unable. It gobbles the mind.
Salaam
-
God is identified as infinite. Therefore, God is "beyond existence". Cool. However, regarding something as 'beyond existence' (e.g. metaphysical; supernatural) is not the same thing as saying that it's 'nonexistent'. That's where the reasoning falls apart and the blind faith (and irrational dogma) kicks in. From an objective standpoint, there's a limited way that this concept can be perceived either God exists, or he doesn't exist. Period. If he doesn't exist, then he's not real - characterizing him as unreal, imaginary, or the ultimate product of theistic delusion.
Yes. I see how calling something "beyond existence" sounds ridiculous. I think what was meant was "beyond creation". Like you say, if something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist, except perhaps in our imagination or in fairy tales. So God exists... but the issue is that people have all sorts of ridiculous images of God. God is not dependent on our images of God.
No disrespect to the "believers", but people who claim to understand something like this are generally just as foolish as the concept.
Yes... not that they are foolish... but indeed in the sense that the weirdness of such people are at par with the weirdness of their concept. Of course. But we can exchange 'foolish' or 'weird' for 'incomprehensible'.
There's no justification for holding onto an irrational viewpoint, especially once it's been designated as such.
It is termed irrational because it cannot be grasped by the person who terms it as such. It is irrational to that person... not necessarily in itself.
And, contrary to this position, there's no such thing as something 'not being in the realm of the mind'. Saying "I feel it" is still within 'the realm of the mind', because it perpetrates thought and acceptance of something that can't be substantiated, regardless of where the thought or belief stems from.
-
Are you your mind? Are you a bunch of habitual thoughts being fired off as per the "carved" tracks in your brain? Who is it that is watching the thoughts? Who is aware that there are thoughts? Is that just another thought?
-
Yes, saying " I feel it" is indeed within the mind, and that's why I said it cannot be explained to someone else. You have to EXPERIENCE it for yourself. Nothing else will do. God must be EXPERIENCED, not registered by the senses or machines/tools. THIS is the core issue. Those who haven't yet experienced it will have no concept of it, and will never have until they experience it for themselves. Can you explain the flavor of cinnamon to someone without the organs of smell and taste?
This is nonsense.
How could it possibly be viewed as anything else?
-
-
Harun,
This thing which you, Harun, is pointing towards, will never be understood by someone who doesn't "sense it". But the funny thing is, that it may or may not be understood even by people who claim to believe in God. Actually what happens is that you'll end up discussing totally different things. Atheists discuss one thing, the one who senses God discusses one thing, and the religious person is discussing one thing. Typically, what the atheist is arguing against is the god image of the This is why debates where different parties are trying to convince each other about the obviousness of their own stances regarding the "existence of God", are futile in essence and outcome. But it can be interesting to read though.
CheersPeace,
I agree with the four of you, remember that Allah can be translated as
"The Diety" and our brains are not created to know what "The Diety"
is and only thru his attributes do we have a small clue. While atheists and
other non-believers foolishly attempt to understand God beyond the
attributes that are allowed by him.In fact I believe that God is the only thing that exists. And I do not know what can bind existence, except God, and I do not know why God existence should be finite. As to go beyond existence and to be able to imagin that nothing exists, that existence does not exist, I am unable. It gobbles the mind.
SalaamYour post has occured to me also. Are we God's imagination? Interesting.
Trust God
-
Peace, huruf.
In fact I believe that God is the only thing that exists. And I do not know what can bind existence, except God, and I do not know why God existence should be finite. As to go beyond existence and to be able to imagin that nothing exists, that existence does not exist, I am unable. It gobbles the mind.
I can actually understand this concept, and it makes a degree of sense... However, wouldn't it be more sufficient, in this case, to merely equate God with 'nature' (existence)? There are plenty of people who believe in the ideology of "oneness" - that everything is 'one', and that we're merely parts and pieces of that 'one'. Others assert that God is simply energy, the pure and unadulterated energy that fills and permeates all of existence. This seems plausible from your viewpoint, based on your statement that "God is the only thing that exists".
So, can we summarize your viewpoint by asserting that God is merely nature, energy, or existence (e.g. the universe)? Are Islam and traditional (or non-traditional) pantheism compatible?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace, huruf.
I can actually understand this concept, and it makes a degree of sense... However, wouldn't it be more sufficient, in this case, to merely equate God with 'nature' (existence)? There are plenty of people who believe in the ideology of "oneness" - that everything is 'one', and that we're merely parts and pieces of that 'one'. Others assert that God is simply energy, the pure and unadulterated energy that fills and permeates all of existence. This seems plausible from your viewpoint, based on your statement that "God is the only thing that exists".
So, can we summarize your viewpoint by asserting that God is merely nature, energy, or existence (e.g. the universe)? Are Islam and traditional (or non-traditional) pantheism compatible?
Peace,
Ahmad
Interesting. I think these ideas have some truth in them. These ideas are very different from the classical religious fairy tale images of a "bearded guy in the sky" that I find silly at best.
In my personal opinion, it gets better when we add a dimension of active intelligence to this oneness. This oneness is greater than the sum of its "parts", and it is intelligent in the sense of e.g. being able to inspire a text into the mind of a human being... sort of an intelligent, active whole... but not just a whole, but also a creative power which causes the existence of parts of the "creation".... sort of an infinite potential from which form emanates.Best regards
-
I do not think existence is nature or God is nature. Nature is a projection of some powers of God to human eyes. I wonder whether a donkey thinks about Nature. Or a flea does that.
As to energy, God is beyond that. God is beyond everything, but projects on everything, because everything is His will or His work. And everything seems infinite. However much we may learn about anything, we keep discovering new things about that thing we thought we knew so well. We are beeing treated to beyondness.
Salaam
-
Peace,
I agree with the four of you, remember that Allah can be translated as
"The Diety" and our brains are not created to know what "The Diety"
is and only thru his attributes do we have a small clue. While atheists and
other non-believers foolishly attempt to understand God beyond the
attributes that are allowed by him.Your post has occured to me also. Are we God's imagination? Interesting.
Trust God
That's true... Deity can be another word for God - whereas God can have a lot of different connotations, Deity had less, at least it seems to.
I also considered that we are "actualised" or made real by God, so although I may not personally use the word imagination, I can see where you are going with that one in terms of what our reality is in relation to God.
-
Peace to All My Bros and Sis
Peace.
I'm not understanding the basis of this claim... He's saying that God doesn't exist because he's "beyond existence"?
That's like saying that I can become 'so alive' (full of life) to the extent that I can't really be regarded as 'living' anymore. Or, I can have so much money that I can't be regarded as 'wealthy' anymore. If someone dies, can that person somehow go 'beyond death' to the point of not being characterized as 'dead' anymore?
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me at all. The concept(s) of that is totally irrational and illogical.
Peace,
Ahmad
Ahmad, Don't judge the argument from ur preconceived notions of Reality, but just take little pains from ur side to go deep INTO it. I think u are being confused. If I say God is Beyond Existence, It is NOT the same as saying that HE DOES NOT EXIST
You are not Understanding what it is trying to say BECAUSE ur SUBCONCIOUS has PRESUMED that any such thing is equivalent to SHIRK
It is a Concept PROPOSED by a Christian Theologian...
Hope u may take pains to ACTUALLY SEE what it is TRYING to SAY.....
Quran and probability
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htmWakas, I have read the post a times and I don NOT find it interesting or Thought Provoking.
NO MATTER WHAT CLAIMS ARE THERE, the PROBABILITY CAN NEVER BE EQUAL TO 1. And it is AGAINST THE RULES OF LOGIC TO BELIEVE IT. In fact this says that , thought there is A LARGE PROB THAT qURAN IS GOD'S WORD, BUT IT IS NOT ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN
the ONTOLOGICAL PROOF of God's EXISTENCE is MORE Convincing than this, but then we face the same issue as we CANNOT DEFINE GOD TO EXIST BECAUSE EXISTENCE BOUNDS HIM.
Peace
PEOPLE DON"T THINK I AM PROMOTING ANY CONCEPT. THIS STROKE ME AS TRUTH. BECAUSE GOD IS SOMETHING WE HAVE ONLY A VAGUE IDEA OF, DEPENDING UPON OUR COMMON IMAGERY, I THOUGHT OF SPEAKING ON THAT.
Peace to All
Harun -
Peace, Zulf.
Interesting. I think these ideas have some truth in them. These ideas are very different from the classical religious fairy tale images of a "bearded guy in the sky" that I find silly at best.
In my personal opinion, it gets better when we add a dimension of active intelligence to this oneness. This oneness is greater than the sum of its "parts", and it is intelligent in the sense of e.g. being able to inspire a text into the mind of a human being... sort of an intelligent, active whole... but not just a whole, but also a creative power which causes the existence of parts of the "creation".... sort of an infinite potential from which form emanates.I can definitely understand this perspective, and I've met many people who base their theological ideals on the concept of this "oneness". Ultimately, it boils down to equating God with the Universe, e.g. everything in existence. Or, perhaps they base their views on a variation of panentheism, which implies that God interpenetrates every facet of natural existence, while also extending beyond it. In either case, it produces the same framework of thinking God is equated to 'all things in all places at all times'. Do these 'schools of thought' determine God to be intelligent? Yes, there are some that fashion him to be such. Some even regard him as personal, although he is also seen as being transcendent and beyond comprehension.
For the record, the concept of "oneness" doesn't have to be theistic - it can also be deistic, in which certain people believe that a creator deity (e.g. 'god' used his intelligent, creative powers to fashion the Universe, and then he because synonymous with it, ceasing to exist as a conscious entity and no longer being accessible on a personal level at all.
It all comes back to belief and faith. Otherwise, there's no way to prove either position at all.
Peace,
Ahmad
-
I do not think existence is nature or God is nature. Nature is a projection of some powers of God to human eyes. I wonder whether a donkey thinks about Nature. Or a flea does that.
As to energy, God is beyond that. God is beyond everything, but projects on everything, because everything is His will or His work. And everything seems infinite. However much we may learn about anything, we keep discovering new things about that thing we thought we knew so well. We are beeing treated to beyondness.
Salaam
Peace Huruf,
Have you read the Kybalion? I think you'll find it quite interesting.
