7ad El 7araba??
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Sometimes I think these verses are tests in themselves... to let us human readers expose ourselves and become witnesses against ourselves.
For example, what purpose would it serve to crucify someone??!? To me, it sounds like sadistic madness to entertain this thought of crucifying someone... I haven't prayed for an understanding of this verse and I haven't looked at it from a linguistic or cross-referencing way.... but I suspect there are , as usual, some very sensible, universal, logic and constructive ways to understand the verse, that have been buried under the usual insanity of religious dogmatic filth. I wonder what the word or expression translated as 'crucifixion' can also mean. We've seen in the past many cases where we can go from an idiotic and destructive interpretation (which are so characteristic of human beings) to a more logic, practical and constructive interpretation.. like that of daraba, or that one of smacking the corpse with a lump of meat. brickwall
May God forgive us and let us get purified in mind and heart... & pr
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This is like the saying "those who live by the sword, die by the sword". As Ayman and mmmm say, there is no command or injunction to do that to anybody, like what goes around comes around. You cannot expect to live on the verge if breaking people's lives and therefore living your life with your likes and not expect that it some times catches you. As you live you die.
No person or group of persons is ordered ever to crucify or do the other thing smentiones, in fact, in the Honourable Qur'an the only ones who do that are the wrongdoers like fir3awn. No faithful does that.
Salaam
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Peace Confused,
First, there is nothing in the great reading called "7ad El 7araba". Secondly, I think you know Arabic, so please review all the passages where the term "Khizy" occurs. You will see that it is ALWAYS associated with god's retribution and is NEVER a human implementation of a punishment. Certainly, the verb used in the passage is in the passive and there is no ORDER to do anything (compare this to the imperitive used in the case of the two thieves).
Peace,
Ayman
Hi Ayman
Thanks for responding, but I am not sure what the significance of the word Khizy is in these ayat. Could you please clarify?
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Sorry I just want to bump this up again because I don't feel that anyone actually answered my question. I am really disturbed by this verse and would really appreciate what it means. In one city in Egypt, we've had 19 cases of 7araab during the past two years. All executed by the people of the city and not police or security forces. I need to understand what we are dealing with now. If anyone has any insight about this, please share it.
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People will do whatever they feel like doing, then get their excuses or justifications from whatever find more suitable. It is not the other way around. You first formulate the crime you want to perpetrate, and once you have deviced it you look for the "law" that will make it acceptable. In a muslim environment it is obvious that the best alibi will be given by citing some Quranic text or some hadith. That would make it an armoured alibi. But obviously only to the gullible or ignorant.
The falsehood of the attribution is blatant. It does not say anyhting about the Qur'an but about the people who use it for their filthy purposes. For that they will have to answer not any human, but their Maker. In the meantime, the people should wake up and start fending for themselves without looking all the time up to somebody to tell them right from wrong. They seem to assume that they are going to be eternal children, never growing up and taking responsibility for their own decisions and deeds.
Salaam
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People will do whatever they feel like doing, then get their excuses or justifications from whatever find more suitable. It is not the other way around. You first formulate the crime you want to perpetrate, and once you have deviced it you look for the "law" that will make it acceptable. In a muslim environment it is obvious that the best alibi will be given by citing some Quranic text or some hadith. That would make it an armoured alibi. But obviously only to the gullible or ignorant.
The falsehood of the attribution is blatant. It does not say anyhting about the Qur'an but about the people who use it for their filthy purposes. For that they will have to answer not any human, but their Maker. In the meantime, the people should wake up and start fending for themselves without looking all the time up to somebody to tell them right from wrong. They seem to assume that they are going to be eternal children, never growing up and taking responsibility for their own decisions and deeds.
Salaam
Yes, but unlike stoning, which is not mentioned anywhere in the Koran, there is a very clear verse about this. I posted the verse at the beginning of this thread. Why do I feel that people are avoiding this subject? Because now we can't blame it all on the Hadeeths? Because now we have proof that the Koran itself has a lot of problems?
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Oh, Confused, I have the impression that you refuse to take seriously the answers that have been given. Of course there is in the Qur'an an aya 5.33, but it does not say what you pretend it says. If you are an Arabic speaker or if you know Arabic you see perfectly clearly that there is absolutely no command to anybody to do anything to anybody else in that aya. It is a statement of fact, or if youlike, since there is no other agent mentioned, of the sunna of God.
There is no mention of the word punishment, and there are many times where int he Qur'an it says that the recompense of the evil doers is jahanam, do you mean to say that us, people have the duty or the right to set up a jahanam so we can punish those who gain that reward? Please read what it says and not what some people think or believe it says. It is not difficult, just keep to the text and not to own imagining. Nobody is ordered or allowed to do anything at all in that aya.
If somebody wants to make whatever suits him or her out of the very clear words of the Qur'an, it is his or her business, it is not God's business or anybody else's business nor is it a fault of the Qur'an. If the Revealer was to preclude absolutely all the ill intentioned derivations that people can use it for, He would have reavealed absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. He would have been completely tied up for that. But since people dispute what is written in favour of what they prefer to imagine, they corner the believers into the defensive asking always for ayas that are ever so more clearer and clearer and clearer with no end in sight. God is not our Servant and, more than that, He is not an idiot that would pander to people who have no intention nor wish of being guided, but just want to get things their own way.
Yes, too tough for those of us who would want others to see reason and get desperate when they do not achieve it. But that is the way it is in this world. We have to do with that and be patient. We are not told the story of Ayyub and other prophets and mu'minun just for nothing. We should draw our lessons from them. Be patient and resist and persevere.
The Qur'an is not meant for those who are interested only in using it for their own purposes, and not to gain wisdom or light. Liers will lie, be it with the Qur'an or with their own mothers.
Following your line of reasoning, we would ask from God that he shouldn't reveal anything, since absolutely everything is susceptible of misuse and falsification.
Salaam
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Peace Confused,
Thanks for responding, but I am not sure what the significance of the word Khizy is in these ayat. Could you please clarify?
In all the occurences of the word "khizy" in the great reading, it is the god that does the action and not people. There is no imperitive verb used ordering people to do anything. So the passages must be interpreted figuratively.
Peace,
Ayman